Joerg

That total annihilation would require the application of Chaos... in the flavor of Kajabor. What are you saying about Kajabor being a newborn baby? Kajabor, Krjalk, and probably Pocharngo as well are Outer Gods (in Cthulhu parlance), impersonal forces preceding eternity. IMG Kajabor has only one relation to the Unholy Trio - he/it manifested inside the Chaos Rift that replaced the Spike due to their invasion of the Spike, and then went on a rampage through the world on his own, with a host of chaotic followers along his wave-front of annihilation, that finally brought him/it into confrontation with Wakboth after most other serious forces had been killed or annihilated, which sent one of the pair into Hell (to be trapped in the Ritual of the Net) while the other one would face off with the Storm Bull in Prax, and be squashed beneath the Block.

That's a question the Silmarillion left, too, with Melkor and Ungoliath banished from Eru's Creation. There is an intellectual realm inhabited by the Invisible God which is outside of Gloranthan Creation. The Prime Mover state. There may be other such non-places. The furthest reaches of the Spirit Realm might be remote enough. From Ingolf Dragonfriend's story of failure as an orthodox draconic mystic we know some names for outer draconic realms, soul-rending realms, which IMO lie on the outside of the Sky Dome and the Underworld Bowl, approaching the Source from far out without any Runic taints. These Outermost Regions might be understood as realms of un-Creation. It takes considerable mystical advancement to withstand that unmaking, or alternatively (in the style of Wolverine facing the class six mutant) a powerful regeneration ability able to counter that unmaking. The Unholy Trio had conquered Rashoran's secret, and might have had either sufficient mystical advancement or acquired chaotic regeneration rivalling that of Walktapuses, maybe both. And their child Wakboth might have been able to destroy that unmaking, or possibly create a Pseudocosmic Egg to shelter its parents. Also, outside of the furthest reach of the Sky Dome and the Underworld Bowl, there may still be an accretion disk of Storm and Sramak's River continuing forever in a flatter and flatter extent, perhaps with lost planets (whether Sky World or Underworld) making their desperate orbits or bobbing above and below that plane. There is at least one story that had the dragons traverse the Void to sit down and breed in Dragon Pass, but that may predate the dragon origin myth in Wyrm's Footnotes 14. (If they did so even before the Green Age, there may not have been a sky for them to fly through yet.)

Chaos entered the world, originally as a regrettable (but manageable) by-product of Creation, confined to their own section of the Underworld. These entities carried some of that potential that had not been shaped by runes. There is an emptiness of purpose, of definition, when they carry these non-atoms of random change and/or annihilation. Later, the Unholy Trio learned the detached view of the world from Rashoran, and killed her for that insight. Then they set about to give birth to the embodiment of their desire for revenge and ill-wishes, for evil, and summoned the stuff that is not of Creation, with the result that Thed gave birth to Wakboth. It isn't clear where this happened - Mallia's support might suggest somewhere in the deep darkness of the Underworld where "pools" or agglomerations of this wrongness abound, or whether this happened on the Surface World. Whereever and however that happened, the Trio and their despicable child were banished from Creation, and they collected allies not of the Cosmos. Following the lead of Wakboth, the Trio and their new accomplices entered Creation from the weakness caused by Shargash crashing Umath into the Northern Pillar. What followed was the Chaos invasion of the Lesser Darkness (still), with the course of the Chaos forces mapped in Troll Pak. Ultimately, the Chaos horde (or at least a critical mass of its minions) entered the Spike when other forces attacked it, too (such as High King Elf putting the axe to its base, and Zzabur sending the blast that broke the world). The Spike imploded, starting the Greater Darkness, which saw the northern lands shattered and a gaping rift of Chaos spewing corrosive Chaos into the world, hardly formed potential which nonetheless received enough definition that we can discern between Kajabor, Pocharngo and Krjalk and their special forms of corruption or annihilation, and less primal entities like Seseine or Gbaji, or the deities receiving cults in Cults of Terror. I am not sure whether to regard the Chaos Rift in the center of the world (deep down in Magasta's Whirlpool, enclosed and attacked by the combined forces of Sea) as an opening to the Void or rather an upwelling of barely formed potential through the Chaosium. I tend to see it as the latter, a mass of corrosive un-being that is corroded away by the forces of the Seas about as much as it is replenished through the Chaosium. The triumph of the Seas and the regrowth of that corrosion fluctuate, contributing to the Flood, and of lately reflected by the Red Moon. That's my theory. I think I had dumber ones.

On a different note: Eurmal stole Death from Subere's Vault, with Nontraya a seduced accomplice. He loaned it to Humakt or invited Humakt to take its shape, and then loaned it to Orlanth, and afterwards to many others. Since Eurmal was not interested in owning something only occasionally funny above some things more fun like Disorder or Illusion, he retained some possession of Death while leaving the rest to be diced out between Humakt and Nontraya.

Even if the gods are unchanging (since Godtime "ended" in the Greater Darkness when they did no longer add to their Godtime presence, mortal perception of the gods was never set in adamant. Perceptions change, and so do artistic styles, as has been documented by Jeff for Esrolia/the Holy Country. The experience of Godtime is subjective. Novelty is a property of a starting Age, when it is embraced by many different groups, and resisted by others. As such, it pre-casts its approach into the preceding Age, too, and contributes to the (usually cataclysmic) end of an Age. Considering the permanence of Zzabur and Mashunasan, these forces appear to be mainly resistant to novelty. The Hero Wars were touted to be the conflict between at least four major forces - Orlanth, the Red Goddess, Kyger Litor, and a new Chaos mastermind born to Eastern antigods.

I still don't go with your de-contextualized use of the meaning of Chaos in Greek. This is Glorantha, where terms like Bronze, Brass and Iron have different meanings for the Lozenge. And that goes for terms like Void, Primal Plasma, or Chaos. You cannot have a hole in the Void. All you have is infinite potential. Chaos is more like Gorp. Why not add Fire and Earth? Earth manifested as a place of no Water in the heart of the Sea. And Fire is intangible and destructive. Lower Heaven still is attached to the Surface World - the realm where Light can penetrate. Only now it is occupied and dominated by Lower Air. The celestial dome was lifted off its pivot by the addition of stuff, not by taking stuff away. Sky mythology has a lot less beef with Chaos than the other mythological pantheons. There is Yelm banishing Jokbazi, and afterwards there is Orlanth successfully defending the conquered sky realm against the Sky Terror (his one decisive success as a Chaos fighter). Otherwise, Sky has a problem with Disorder, which is different from Chaos. Raising your eyes takes them away from the Void, except for its reflection on the Red Moon. And "Invisible Orlanth" is a Carmanian localized concept, rarely heard of in Orlanthi lands. I have yet to see "Nirvana" in any Gloranthan text. What we get is Liberation, entering the Ultimate, the Source. There seem to be two sources - the Source of all the energies permeating the universe, and the Void connected by the Chaosium as the origin of all matter that enters the world. The elemental progression places Darkness as the foundation of the universe, with The Mother of Space an interesting entity in this context. The Mostali "blueprint" (Mostal the Maker) has the Spike (Stone) preceding the Darkness (Lead), and if there are any Elder Rock Mostali left in the world, they might have witnessed the Making of Darkness along with the Lead Mostali. There, at the bottom of the universe, sits the Chaosium, which transforms unlimited potential taken out of the Void into Rune-formed Creation, consuming (Rune-formed) energies from the Source in the process. None of the hardcore mystics (outside of the Cult of the Red Goddess) meditates on Chaos. Nysalorean meditiation contemplates the Other. One's personal MGF can be found in the weirdest places. My take on this is that your agenda is falsifiable Chaos propaganda by the Dark Evil Side of Nysalorean Illumination, the part that is Gbaji.

Sure. The Greek definition is nice, but is it pertinent for the use of the term Chaos in Glorantha (as opposed to say the Moorcockian multiverse definition)? I don't think so, and you give a good quote why I don't think so: And there you have it. "In existence." There is no such thing as existence in the Void. Glorantha exists outside of the Void, separate from its continuum. The Plasma, or the Source, the mystical well of energy that percolates Gloranthan reality before being dissipated into the Void. Even beyond Aether. The two are the same, except that Gloranthan Chaos has context, and the Void has none. The Void has no place in Glorantha. Its endless potential is the antithesis to both the stability of Acos and the mutability of Larnste. But with the transformation of raw Void into Creation the Chaosium will be imperfect in its filtering function, allowing in stuff and entities with holes in existence. Even Chaos is of the world, since the Spike imploded and the Chaos Rift established itself in its place. The Chaos Rift is like the Void, but finite, and its contact to Creation (thanks to Magasta's Whirlpool) contained. If it was an open connection to the Void, all of Creation would be consumed in the blink of an eye. Chaos terrifies those who are anchored in Creation and Existence. Only those who are liberated from these may find solace in it, or wonder what the fuss was about. Nirvana is not Annihilation, but ascendence into (or through, no idea as I lack the necessary enlightenment) the source. Ascendence may leave a lot of one's previous existence to annihilation, shed in the process of enlightenment. You will need to expound on why Air is an absence. Darkness may be misunderstood as the absence of light, but (unlike in our world's physics) Darkness is tangible. (And like in our world, Space and/or Spacetime per se is dark.) As a monster, they are tormentors, too - infecting Creation with their destruction. Yes, Chaos is like the Void continuum in many of its properties, except that it is not a continuum. You can feel about Chaos as you want. You might be fascinated by it, you might be drawn to the power it may give you over Creation through the threat of or through application of Annihilation. That's the empty promise of the Deceiver. You may tolerate mild cases of Chaos taint, like the uz tolerate their Cave Troll kin. Chaos need not be evil to still be an existential threat. The integration of Moral Evil into the Devil (Wakboth) is the achievement of the Unholy Trio. And that makes me wonder whether Wakboth's evil is nurture or nature.

Chaos exists only inside Creation. There is no Chaos prior to the Creation of Glorantha. There is the Void, a continuum of unlimited potential, inflicting itself on itself, with a total sum that is Nothing. Glorantha is separated from the Void, yes, with a small interface.

Zorak Zorani or Vivamorti who wield swords would disagree. There is nothing to forbid ZZ types to wield swords (except in troll ball games). But ZZ picked up Death in axe shape, and then blunted it. Using the symbol of the other cult may be seen either as malign appropriation (similar to taking fire from Yelmalio, and a possible outcome of Hill of Gold questing), or as acknowledging Humakt. It would be a brave Vivamorti to wave about a holy symbol of Death that might be invoked by any death worshiper facing them. Curved blades might be preferable.

Next thing is that you suggest that you have to give one tenth of your land and housing in tithe each year? Armor and weapons are a fighter's equivalent to a farmer's land, as is magic, and taxing clothes did never catch on either. The book Montaillou tells how Pyrenaean herders chose cathar heresy with the very imminent risk of getting burned at the stake over giving the bishop every tenth lamb in tithes, rather than just every tenth lamb after the herd was replenished.

With the caveat that Cults of Prax provides cult ranks no longer supported in RQG, like rune priests of Humakt, and that both RQ2/Classic and Cults of Prax are confusing when it comes to POW cost as "temporary" and "permanent" POW. Rhethoric question: Is it honorable to loan a fellow adventurer a hefty amount of silver or to leave that silver at home before participating in a Humakti sacrifice/service as a lay member? Real question: If you attend a worship rite to a deity, donate your MP and offer some entrance fee ("tithe"), doesn't that make you a lay worshiper?

Tithing the initiate's portion as a lay member? I never noticed that (but then somehow the cult of Humakt has not featured as a player option in my games yet). Attending the worship ceremonies and donating a magic point is probably hard to avoid in a typical Humakt-worshipping environment, and some donation in exchange for partaking some of the sacrificial meat is a done deal for many, too. Serving in the fyrd or a city militia will likely involve these. Upholding the Code of Humakt is the Orlanthi equivalent of upholding the Geneva Conventions.

The acronym BRUGE reminds both me and google of Bruges/Brügge, the biggest city in central Europe in the middle ages and financial capital of the Hanseatic League(s).

Picking up the sword (as a youth) usually gets you into contact with Humakti trainers. Few storm khans will be willing to take a season off chaos-fighting to train hopeless newbies how to fight with a sword. "You call that a sword? Get bent!"

Asking that question might get you killed in Fonrit. Or sold. You might as well ask Orlanth why he storms, or Yelm why he shines.

Martin Laurie posted a number of stories about an extreme Humakti by the name of Onslaught in the old days of the Digest who had the charming feature of having iron teeth (much like Richard Kiel in those Moore Bond movies). Here's a link to Onslaught's RQ3 stats. Use the search engine if you want to explore this more, at your own risk. https://glorantha.steff.in/digests/GloranthaDigest/vol02/3103.html Common misconception... There is very little iron in haemoglobine, and it is not metallic. Your common dark-colored piece of flint or obsidian contains more non-metallic iron than the same mass of blood (which is mostly water, salts, and sugars with white blood cells and thrombocytes contributing to the floating cells that carry haamoglobine on their surfaces).

How exactly do you become not a lay member of Humakt if you can wield a sword?

Just the one point of rune magic, or the twenty-something magic points put into the percentage?

The Boggles are not Chaos. They are actually very effective in destroying Chaos. It is hard to say whether they discriminate between Chaos and normal Creation, although Uleria-primed ones might be so inclined. While Chaos is weirdly into forced reproduction (into an existence that is misery), there is a trend for individual impregnation (whether Arachne Solara with Kajaboor or Teelo Estara with Blaskarth).

A question pertinent for Harsaltar and his sisters (the founders of the Household of Death). But then, the difference is whether their initiation is automatic or whether they need to undergo an initiation trial beyond the Telmori adulthood rites for their own cubs. What "rites" are there for cubs born to the Telmori wolves? At the very least, they are likely to receive a shaman's blessing at some point in their development, even if they don't choose a human-shaped partner. At a guess, Harsaltar's mother was a member of the bodyguard pack of Boldhome, and possibly a grandchild or great-grandchild of Ostling Four-Wolves. "Wolf-brothers" sounds slightly more threatening than "wolf silblings", doesn't it?

And still the Telmori are avid users of javelins, despite these taking enough of a ransom for a single battle 😉 , and half a ransom for a hunt with that missile.

With Sword Trance absent, this duel is hardly applicable to RuneQuest: Roleplaying in Glorantha rules. This spell should be banned from Humakti duels (alongside Sever Spirit) as it basically means a victory for the duelist able to pour the most magic points into the spell.

In "Ten Women Well Loved" (Greg's 2000s Harmast novel crowd-sourced by Fabian Küchler pre-empting Patreon) Harmast's Berennethtelli tattoo magically morphs into something the Grandmothers recognize as the Kodigvari tribal tattoo, which leads to persecution and having to flee.

There should be some sobering backlash as soon as the hallucination ends, either way.

It is a known fact that there was a massacre against the Telmori in 1627. Argrath Saga (not the most reliable source) states that Argrath's men took werewolf skins and inherited their powers. For a military unit you need about 1000 people on foot, with that equipment. Catching all the Telmori is pretty much impossible for a military expedition. Jomes Wulf was considered very successful, and his action left 6500 Telmori behind. If followers of Argrath skinned about 1000 werewolves and took to wearing their pelts, and running around with dog or wolf companions afterwards, I wonder who they would have been before. One possibility would be Wolf Pirates - after all, their sea sorcerers knew a ritual to use wolf skins to house the ship's spirit on the bow-sprites of their ships. The "wolf" comes with their name... I don't really see any of the Orlanthi neighbors of the Telmori tribe adopt their skins or their beast companions (or Praxian or Balazaring dogs). Too many cat nazis there. Anyway, even if 1627 caused the demise of half the Telmori population, that means that there still are a few thousand wolf hsunchen hiding in the wilds of East Sartar, hunting or raiding the herds of their neighbors after their regular prey has been displaced. We don't know whether Argrath ordered that slaughter, but we know that he did not prevent it from happening. That doesn't mean that he would not hire Telmori afterwards for his wars, which saw high attrition.