metcalph

There are 75,000 or Esvulari in the South Province of Heortland and 15,000 elsewhere in Heortland. There are Esvulari elsewhere in the ports of Kethaela but no numbers given for them (History of the Heortling Peoples p86). There's several ways in which we could resolve the problems of endogamy. 1) Looking at real world example, the unfortunate Yazidis. Their population is of similar size to the Esvulari and they practice endogamy. Furthermore the Yazidis have three endogamous castes; the Sheikhs, the Pir (Elders) and the Murids (Commoners). So the set-up is possible. 2) The Esvulari may have practised Caste Endogamy as a reaction to the abuses of the God Learners. That whittles the lengthy time period from 1600 years to 500 years. 3) I feel that the smaller castes number between 5-10% of the population each. Most people in the Noble and Priestly caste are not actually nobles or priests but people eligible to serve as nobles or priests. Apart from practicing their caste taboos, most of them live lives only barely distinguishable from the commoners.

IMO the Aeolians are not a church. A much better way of putting it might be, instead of having worshippers of Lhankor Mhy advising everybody else, the Aeolians have wizards who believe in the Invisible God, view other gods as emanations thereoff etc. etc. Most people are ordinary Orlanthi with rune magics and spirits whereas a significant view among the rulers would have more spell knowledge than say their Sartarite counterparts. Socially the Aeolians would organize themselves alongside the God Learner system of government (which Belintar stole from them). Instead of the clan ring, they have a clan noble who is advised by officials from among the following fields (Governing, Army, Navy, Religion, Trade, Sorcery and Treasure). Some of these officials would be appointed by the clan noble, others would be appointed by whomever the clan noble serves and so on. Officials supposedly work collegially but under a weak clan noble, they could work independently. And sometimes some officials may just merely be collecting taxes for a particular function and sending it elsewhere (ie the Navy Official collects Ship Money from the inland clans). I would say about as much connection as the average Lhankoring has. Every clan would have a wizard who would serve as the Clan Sorceror. Ideally the Governing Official (in charge of civilian affairs) and the Religion Official (in charge of the worship of the Gods) would both be wizards but many clans would be too poor or backward to attract a wizard for these positions. Instead the position might fall to some-one with sufficient spell knowledge to discharge the day to day duties of the position (and beg for help from the God-King's bureacracy when things get really bad) or they could be even more backward and hand it to a Lhankoring. There is no Aeolian Church but rather a group of philosophers who believe in the Gods as emanations of the Invisible God and thereby worthy of worship. They spend most of their time studying the Gods because they are the most prominent manifestations of the Invisible God. Many will take governmental duties in order to earn a living. An esvulari wizard could decide to study something other than the Gods (e.g.. dream magic, alchemy, draconism) without sanction from other wizards but they would be considered to wasting their knowledge in pursuing foolish distractions and not the visible truths. The Aeolians are not traditional Orlanthi. They are brought up with the idea that spell-knowledge is good knowledge. They may consider it too hard for them to understand but they would not consider an Aeolian wizard to be evil. Even the priests and devotees among the Aeolians will have normally have no objection to spell-knowledge. Jeff has already answered this earlier in the thread a few months back.

Looking good for me. Minor typo on p105 - Broyan's runes are given in plain text.

There are no other Malkioni in the vicinity of Kethaela are there? New Malkonwal is the closest mythical settlement of Malkioni to either Slontos or God Forgot. All that's needed is for Malkion settlers to settle either side of the Faralinthor Sea from New Malkonwal and you have the Storm Age origins of Slontos and God Forgot. Except there's no Waertagi drydock around God Forgot and there's no Brithini population around Sog's Ruins. And Sog's Ruins dates from the Flood rather than the Great Blast or the Ice Age. There So? I said they became Brithini *after* the destruction of the Machine City. All the sources you quote show at best was that there was population movement into Esvular and says nothing about their faith. Who said the phases had to be visible on the Moon. Look at the Water Corkscrew (A core part of Zistorite philosophy as KoS p80 tells us). The phases are the representation of the Water (allegorically the soul) as it passes through the Corkscrew travelling from a lower level to a higher one. No need for any silly celestial observations. That modern Lunars chose to interpret diagrams of corkscrew water levels as lunar phases is yet another example of Lunars seeing their goddess in everything regardless of whether it actually was. Leaving aside the canon status of anything in Arcane Lore, why would the Moon be there? And would would the supposedly ultraconservative Brithini choose to associate themselves with the Moon? Where is the reference for magical swords losing their magic when taking out of God Forgot? And the first part of your statement has several implicit assumptions that you have yet to substantiate (such as the ZIstorites were in it for materialistic purposes - Their philosophy as described in the Middle Sea Empire was to elevate the material world into a more spiritual state). Anyway I must leave here. Have bought the Coming Storm to read.

*All* Malkioni were using the Brithini caste system at the Dawn! The Ingareens are not Brithini being descendents of thos who travelled with Malkion on the Expulsion Walk. As for the Historical Maps, all that it shows is that some Ingareens were living under Heortling rule circa 700 ST. It does not imply that a split has taken place. So where did the God Forgotten get the Moon Rune from? You know the one that appears among the parts of the Holy Country sent by Belintar against Harrek in the Prince of Sartar Webzine? And the very purpose of the Purification Rune is remarkably close to what the Lunars claim for the Moon Rune. p46 of the PDF, "Yet the Abiding Book said, "The Purpose of Life is to be closer to God." No rune itself addressed the power that reversed the process of Devolution. Malkion the Sacrifice had stopped it and infused Creation with a Divine Spark but not yet released was the New Rune to follow. "It is through Purification that the New World will be made," he declared. The seven runes of the wand are the Seven Phases of the Red Moon in which one goes through darkness in order to become closer to God/the All whatever. There is nothing there that is alien to God Learner or Zistorite thought. How did the Moon Rune get to the Holy Country then? And why the attempt to deny that the Lunar use the Moon Rune for enlightenment rather than balance?

The ingareens adopted Orlanthi ways just like the Esvulari did. They then adopted God Learner ways and ended up in a horrible place. So they adopted Brithini ways as they no longer had any dreams. There is an important difference between the Brithini of Arolanit and the God Forgottens. The God Forgottens are still attached to the Purification Rune (as per the Middle Sea Empire and also the Holy Country chapter of Prince of Sartar graphic novel) which looks like a Moon Rune (hinted as long ago as Pavis: Threshold to Danger whence the Wand of the Seven Phases of the Moon comes from the Machine City). They don't use it to master chaos but they do use it to purify themselves to draw closer to the God who has forgotten them.

I think it best to state it this way: Aeolians are Orlanthi. They look hear smell and otherwise talk like Orlanthi. Where they differ is that they support a school of wizards. These wizards make special claims about the Cosmos that very few non-wizards can understand. The Aeolians do not believe in these special claims but they do believe in the Wizards. Wizard knowledge is similar to knowledge of heart surgery or quantum mechanics - something which most folks don't understand but they sure are grateful to the wizards for mastering this knowledge. Although the Aeolians came from the region of God Forgot, God Forgot only adopted Brithini ways after the fall of the Machine City (and the resulting spiritual catastrophe). Thus the Aeolians of Esvular are closer to the original Aeolians (the Intagreens of Jon Barat) than the current God Forgottens.

The Borderlands is dated 1615 (Pavis:Gateway to Adventure p45) as Raus has just arrived.

"Karallan's Plight" in the Report on the Orlanthi, KoS p212 (PDF). Will also be in Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes.

Monrogh isn't an Elmali and knows Firespeech. How is he going to mistranslate it? I do feel that plain ignorance as a reason for mistranslation is just uninspired. Why are the Elmali promoting such a mistranslation given that they barely know who Tharkantus is at all (he fought against the EWF and Monrogh's speaking at least five hundred years later). What would your preferred translation be? What type of magics do you think Tharkantus provides compared to Yelmalio or Daysenerus? These are more productive avenues for speculation than just a simple naysaying of the source.

RuneQuest Companion had an article about them. They originated on the Spike. They are found in Peloria, Fronela and Ralios. The Unicorn Riders do not eat their steeds. They are believed to be immortal. They are solitary and essentially ignore each other apart from their sons. They have no native language and are often incapable of speech. Forest unicorns sometimes speak Aldryami. They repoduce with female mares and does (no idea whether this applies to all creatures on the wastes such as a Bison or a Rhino). Unicorns can become Shamans. In the Guide, Hwarin Dalthippa rides on one. There's a tribe of unicorn riders worshipping Yelorna near the Sun Dome Temple in Ralios. There's a unicorn king in Huntswood near the Fronelan Forest of Erontree. Ralzakark is the Unicorn Emperor.

Not "that is" but "that could be". Since Monrogh required knowledge of Firespeech, I find the chances of a mistranslation remote. Furthermore suggesting that something is mistranslated and so can be safely ignored seems to be to be a rather cheap way out. If there is to be a gap between the translation and the actual meaning, it would be more productive to explain why. In the specific cases of Moses, the writers knoew Egyptian (next door) but they were keen on denying his Egyptian identity so as to put forward a spurious origin for his name (similar minded reformers destroyed Moses' bronze snakes for the same reason).

It's translated as the Empty Saving Hearth according to History of the Heortling Peoples p108

I should caution once again that although the horse information is quite Greggly in origin, since it has not re-appeared in the New Canon, it like Lives of Sedenya, Shreds of Light and Reason should assumed to be postcanonical. They would be postcanonical if the people who tended them were actually Hsunchen. But the Galanini were Orlanthi. Gamatae or Gametae comes from the Glorious ReAscent footnote 120 p37 (most recent edition).

Actually this (and a further quote) is from History of the Heortling Peoples p108. And before calling Monrogh a dubious source, it's kind of important to show that he actually is dubious.

It doesn't show Yelm as a pile of dust, Plentonius writes that pile of dust on the wall is a portion of Yelm and ascribes the apparent contradiction to Yelm's foresight. That's a big difference. If you look at the Entekosiad, you see a reference to the Ash Man whose description is a much better fit than what Plentonius says. So while Plentonius' description of what the God Walls can and should be challenged, it does not follow that we cannot put the Gods Wall down to any specific period. It shows an Emperor receiving worship from the Gods of Five Peoples (four of whom are shown wearing dress corresponding to Rinliddi, Zarkos, Darsen and Suvaria). The Emperor is seated on a dais held up by a women crowned with a city. That shows that cities were important in his empire. Among the Gods is Oslira the River Goddess and the ten sons and workers who helped Lodril in taming the river. That shows that the river had been tamed and was being used for agriculture. All this and more places the Gods Wall as being constructed within the Late Golden Age.

The iconography is closer to the original practice rather than the GRAY text which was compiled in the Dawn Age. Given that there's been little change in the appearance of many gods (Doburdon was identified as being on the weall through his iconography although Plentonius appears not to have known him, the similarity of contemporary iconography of the Gods with their Gods Wall appearance would be a fairly strong piece of evidence. The Dara Happan chronology parallels the Orlanthi (Fire Tribe/Storm Tribe etc) and also the Vithelans, Malkioni and Doraddi. You can assert the the precise datings are bogus but to say that one event really happened in a different era requires far stronger evidence. Compounded that with Avivorus using a Sunspear where Hastatus is shown as using a more mundane spear, I doubt that the identification of the two as the same god is tenable.

Wyrm Footprints IMO is so old that some of the more high fantasy elements were included in many cult descriptions without much forethought. Looking at the Wall and the Glorious ReAscent, there's little sign of anybody riding any griffins or other flying creatures in Dara Happan mythology. As a result, the cult of Yelm the Rider has become toned down into a more pedestrian age occupation among the Pentans (Dastal the Hunter) and that there is no tradition of riding flying creatures in Dara Happa (that's not to say there are more modern practices but they would not originate with Yelm).

That's incorrect (although it is what Plentonius claims). Hastatus appears on the Gods Wall which means he was worshiped as a God in the Golden Age. Avivorus wields the Sunspear against Emperor Orogoros in the Storm Age. Ergo Hastatus and his Spear preceded Avivorus and his Sunspear by a thousand years. In HQ terms, Avivorus would teach the Sunsear Feat while Hastatus would have an affinity involving general spear combat (but I don't think this extends to pike and shield combat since it was unknown when he was worshiped).

Anaxial's Roster is hardly canonical, especially the one liner mythlets contained in the creature descriptions. You would be on much stronger ground citing KoS p165 "The Animal Nomads and the horse nomads had been feuding since before the beginning of Time. Both [Pentans and Praxians - PHM] claimed they were the chosen children of Genert, the dead god whose land was wasted."

I'm afraid I don't have a timeline as there are many questions that I have yet to suss out. The first is what happened at the Hill of Gold? In the standard conventiional retelling as per Pavis: Gateway to Adventure p379, Yelmalio loses everything and comes out the better for it (the Passion of Yelmalio so to speak). But according to the Glorious ReAscent p44, one of the Prince of the Ten Tests treats the Hill of Gold as a plundering expedition and comes away with the Orb of Authority. Which would be plausible if he were a God Learner but he's not. There's also the detail that Questors can pick up fire crystals at the Hill of Gold P:GtA p118 which allows them to circumvent the lesson that Yelmalio supposedly learned. It's like going up to Mt Sinai to get the ten tablets and on the way down pick up pieces of the Golden Calf to allow you to use forbidden magic without God making a fuss. But as a result of this, we can conclude that there was a tradition of a quester going up the Hill to become the Last Light. I suppose the tradition may have been influenced by the Heortling Star Heart mystery (Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes p77). The next innovation is the Battle of Night and Day. Daysenervus appears and breaks the Cosmic Compromise. History of the Heortling Peoples p21. I think the Daysenerus cult was about using Illumination to use Light Feats etc that previously required a ridiculous amount of purity, noble blood etc. Presumably at this time the Sun Domers organized themselves as a phalanx to make themselves useful while they were still trying to become illuminated. Perhaps it was a mandate by the Emperor - provide x amount of phalanxes rather than sit around doing nothing. The Illuminates were killed by Arkat and what was left behind was a pallid cult of light worshipping spearmen. The relevation of Tharkantus I don't have much of an idea. I'm not convinced it was Kargzant related. I think the secret died out in the battles against the EWF and the surviving cultists not having much a reason to oppose them any longer decided to fight for them instead. And that is how they came to Prax. The next phase of Yelmalion evolution comes from the Empire of Sheng Seleris IMO. He is a big fan of native fire cults and gruesome austerities and so the Sun Domers of Dragon Pass acquired a tradition of ridiculous geases to makes themselves acceptable to Sheng Seleris. This is undocumented and inferred from that the Empire controlled Prax (Guide to Glorantha p142) Finally Monrogh. As per King of Sartar p169, I feel his innovation was not bringing back the secret of Yelmalio but to provide an interpretation of Yelmalio that avoided overt submission to the Emperor that in return didn't bring out the Orlanthi bushwhackers. In other words, they were sufficiently not servants of the Emperor to be accepted to Orlanthi tribals everywhere and sufficiently disciplined that they could be trusted as agents of distant Kings.

A debate about horses. Oh dear. Here's what I can find out. Horses appear on the Wall. In the actual placing, they are a type of demon which suggests that Hippogriff has already been wounded. Now the dating of the Gods Wall is a big question in itself (Plentonius - Yelm's enthronement, Iverlanthus - Murharzarm's murder, me - Murharzarm's enthronement) but I think it safe to say that nobody rode horses in the Golden Age. The first mention of ridden horses comes from the same period. The beginning of the reign of Manarlavus. In the Glorious ReAscent, it's portrayed as a discovery by the city of Nivorah while the Entekosiad p51 has the first horsemen appearing as being summoned by Eskarlavus to fight the Bird People of Dashrell (Eskarlavus dies and his brother takes over). Now what's happening here is that Eskarlavus is summoning troops from the four quarters of the world (According to the Glorious ReAscent, they are the Zarkos, the Suvarians, the Pelandans and the Jarasans). Since Eskarlavus is fighting bird people, he can't very well use them so he substitute horses instead. For a long time, I thought that since the Jarasans come from the Northwest, their replacements should too. Thus Eskarlavus has made contact with the first horsemen in Pent and hired them to defeat the Bird People. As a result, his brother settles them in Nivorah as a reward whereupon they revolt. With the publication of the Guide and its completed piccie of the Gods Wall, I am now not so sure. I had originally thought that the identification of Gamara on the wall was an after the fact rationalisation based on the original stick figure that looked nothing whatsoever like a horse. Now I think it possible for Nivorah to have discovered riding horses by themselves. The horsemen of Nivorah would have worshipped Reladivus (whose name as has been pointed out is a masculine version of Reldayle), Hippoi and Hyalor. Now Reladivus has a history (or rather mythology) prior to his riding horses. As well as being the God of the City, he is associated with an old debt (GRoY p13) which Murharzarm resolves with token jars and the Sandals of Innocence. This may be related to the Sandals of Separation which Yelm wears (GRoY p7) to keep the pure skin from touching the impure earth. Hence what I think has happened was that the holyfolk of Nivorah had a tradition of remaining out of earthern contact in order to remain pure. Originally they had special shoes but then took to riding on beasts (cattle, sheep) before settling on horses. Hyalor was probably the King of Nivorah who took up riding hoses. So that's one of the two traditions of horsemanship in Peloria. The Starlight Ancestors, the other tradition, are originally from what is now Votankiland who make their way northwards swing around the Hungry Plateau and occupy what remains of Dara Happa. I believe they obtained their horses from Pent. A bygone Gregly document (Ancestors of the Lenshi Kings now of uncertain canonity) makes this somewhat implicit with the Starlight Ancestors fighting another tribe at what is now the Elf Sea. Eventually they make peace, the two tribes become one and Kargzant and Horses start to become mentioned afterwards. Unlike the Hyalorings/Hyalorong of erstwhile Nivorah, they are Chariot-Riders. Now the Guide mentions Star Captains providing light during the Great Darkness at the Celestial Eagle Hills p368 ST. These hills are in the middle of Pent near the Snowline and far out of the way of the Starlight Ancestors.. The Highest Peak is Polestar Mountain where Polestar taught the Star Gazers. It's no coincidence surely that Buserian invented his frame from the remains of a Yurt. It's my belief that Kargzant and his charioteers came from Pent (in the region of the Celestial Eagle Hills) and made their way to Peloria where they came into contact with the Starlight Ancestors. As a result, their gods were Kargzant, Buserian and Pole Star. The combined tribes then conquered Dara Happa where they met with the Hyalorings and learned from them the secret of riding horses. With that knowledge, Pent becomes open to significant human habitation and the rest is history.

There's a bit of confusion here. Hastatus is not associated with Nivorah. Urvarinus removed Sagittus (the Bow God) from the ruins of Elempur to become the Imperial Bowman in Raibanth GRaY p25. As for Hastatus being the source of the Sun Dome pikeman, I think it is Daxdarius who is the source of phalanxes and pike-fighting.

Wyrms are reported as being ridden by the Scouts of Kartolin Pass in 146 according to Dorastor: Land of Doom p146. Hence I think they originated in the Storm Age.

In the Broken Council Guidebook (caveats about canonity), Yelorna was the sister to the four sons of Eneral (Vustr, Korion, Uton and Fornao). Either way, she could have hid among the elves of Tarinwood during the Great Darkness and still be associated with Hrelar Amali.