metcalph

How does Caylash Rhino fit into the scheme of things? He's active between 780 and 810, even denting the gates of the Castle of Lead.

I agree that the God Learners were not illuminated through Joy and never meant to suggest they were. There's scant Hrestoli influence among the God Learners. The reference to Gbaji is not conclusive as any bad influence would be labelled by them as coming from Gbaji. As for the error of the God Learners is, I feel, a result of their short cuts. In their study of much of the world (Draconists, Arkati, Eastern Islanders, their own Henosis tradition [HeroQuest Glorantha p174] etc), they were able to derive a new Exalted State that would be superior to all other paths. It was however the "Most Learned and Least Wise" of the states of mystical awareness. There has been very little evidence of the type of magics cast by the Loskalmi full stop so the argument that the Loskalmi aren't known to do this isn't that strong an arguement. Casting magic combining opposing runes is not unique to the Lunars - HeroQuest: Glorantha has it as a general power known by the following people: The Arkati The Draconists The God Learners who made the water burn. The Eastern Islanders The Cult of Silence The Near Ones with a big Question Mark. Two and probably three of those also use Western Sorcery. How they use this power is yet undescribed but that it should rest comfortably within magics of the rank-and-file and not look like a rulesy interpolation. I don't think that is what Jeff said. Hrestoli spells are contigent on Joy. Zzaburi spells can be cast by non-Brithini but require special requirements (the reasoning having been lost in the midsts of time) to be effective such as the requirement that their horses be of a specific height (cf the pony ridden by the Soldier on p406 of the Guide).

I'm speaking only in the HeroQuest Glorantha definition which also states that Draconists are illuminated and elsewhere insinuates that the God Learners were illuminated. Not to mention obvious loons like Argrath running around stating all these states are the same. Illumination (henceforth referring only to the Nysaloran) has been around long before the Sunstop (cf Yelm). Whatever reasons Arkat opposed Nysalor is not necessarily the reason that Nysalor threatened the Cosmos (gratituous breaches of the Cosmic Compromise) and they may be distinct by whatever Gjabi was up to. Secondly Arkat did not become illuminated as a result of becoming a knight. He was supposedly illuminated by the Elves of Brithos before coming to Seshnela. Now you can disagree with that however you wish (I myself think he was what the Lunars call a Natural and his condition arose through the Sunstop) but Arkat's reasons are largely personal to him rather than general dislike of something different. Nysalor was the evil deceiver who kept him and others emeshed in the turmoil of the Gods War Unfortunately the description of Medispiction (in the Middle Sea Empire p46) makes it clear that their moral senses are not that sharp. More importantly you are criticizing my equation Joy = Illumination on the on the grounds that they are subjectively different. I quite agree But I was equating Joy with Illumination on the grounds that both conferred similar cosmic awareness as the HeroQuest: Glorantha rulebook also said was the case for Draconic mysticism, Eastern Isles Sagely wisdom, the Cult of Silence and whomever is fooling around with God Learner artifacts in Jrustela. Do all these ways yield the same (or even similar) mental insight? Almost certainly not! But the effect of the acquisition of this knowledge is largely similar and in broad strokes can be summed up in the seven illumination abilities (as per HQ:G p204). Now having argued that the enlightened states are the same only in the consequences of that knowledge, I will now u-turn again and suggest that the magic that the different paths derive from their enlightened knowledge will differ radically and be largely influenced by myth, magical practice and culture. Lunar magic (Moon Rune Glamours) flows from Illumination yet would be vastly different from whatever use the Bright Empire used it for (my guess is ignoring the Cosmic Compromise as per the Battle of Night and Day). Dragon Magic will differ yet again being concerned with Dragons and so on. Lastly I do think that what magics the Loskalmi now derive from Joy are different from what the God Learners, Gerlant and Talor derived (and their magics different from each other). You haven't said much in the way of powers at all (I know I haven't). Intellectual union with the one is a description of what Joy subjectively is rather than being a visible point of difference between the power of say Sir Meriatan and an ordinary sorcerer which is what people are really interested in. Ease in learning sorcery spells is largely negated by the time spent in trying to achieve joy in the first place. Immunity from magical attacks would be qualified by an ability rating and become another version of Countermagic. Better abilities might be: 1) LIVING GRIMOIRE: A personal rune becomes active. A spell can be derived from this rune on an ad hoc basis and cast (without any specific ability bonus) 2) FREEDOM OF THOUGHT: The Man-of-All renders himself immune to the effects of the corrupt world of matter whether physical (ie cold weather, alcohol etc) or mental (rigid thinking, narrow social mores). He can still be affected by actions caused by another person 3) UNTAP: Mutate a form of chaos into something ineffective or self-harmful to its possessor 4) WIELD JOY: the Man-of-All can make his joy known to others. Usually used as a teaching aid but can be used offensively. Use of Joy to kill or to commit a crime is considered an extreme error. 5) HIDDEN MOVE: The Man-of-All moves his body through the eyes of Irensavel. All his actions are at +9. While in such a state, he is unable to do anything hostile to another person in a state of joy (and could but shouldn't to a Loskalmi who has not yet experienced joy). While Joy could be interpreted in such an individualistic fashion, I do not believe the Loskalmi and others do normally do so.

According to the Guide p51 The magic they provide are spells which anybody can learn. One could argue that a saint could also provide an affinity (and the Cult of Pavis in Pavis: Gateway to Adventure would be a good example of that) But you would find such barbarous practices among the henotheists (or perhaps the Tanisoran War Societies). They are not Saints in the sense of agents of compassion and teachers of holy paths of meditation but intellectual discoverers of Cosmic Truths. Their teachings are primarily for the wizards and men-of-all and have little relevance for the ordinary people. The mindset of the wizards is that of the alchemist, the astronomer or the heart surgeon rather than the contemplative hermit. Every western commoner knows spell magic whether it is through their occupation or magical nature Theoretically the common arts were invented by people who would nowadays be Saints but the Brithini do not see their achievements to be worthy of applause (think of Aristotelian Logic, we use it quite often but worship Aristotle very little). That really goes to the nature of Joy, something which there has been little official word about in the new Canon. Firstly the Seshnegi Rokari. The best example here are the war societies and we can pretty much trace their origins (Horse Society - Galanini Orlanthi, Snake Society - Serpent Kings, Lion Society - Basmoli, Bull Society - Tawari who invaded Seshnela in the Dawn Age, Deer Society - Pralori, Wolf Society - Telmori). I don't get the impression that the Seshnelans are all that interested in policing the magical practices of the war societies, instead they are focused on ensuring correct thought among the wizards. They probably insist on outside conformance with Malkioni norms (no shape-shifting into bestial form) but leave it at that. Hence the war societies can probably teaches runic affinities or spirit charms for all I know. They probably justify their practices as being endorsed by the saints whom they secretly worship but they would not be an saintly ordained warrior order in the traditional sense. The Talars on the other hand are family focused and have a magical tradition based on what house they belong to (the Bailifids etc). This may extend to war magics (such as the flaming swords) but the founders of these traditions are not considered to be Saints. Now for the Loskalmi. There's two types of orders, the wizardly orders (such as the Zendamalthan School which seeks God through Math) and the Men-of-All orders (the traditional knightly orders). All wizardly schools in Loskalm are Hrestoli and seek Joy. This comes because when the Men-of-All seized power after expelling the God Learners, they forced all the wizardly orders to open their ranks to the knights etc. As far as I can suss things out, Joy is a sorcerous mysticism, to wit; a spiritual state achieved through the use of spells, which is to non-Hrestoli "inconsequential and typically of no interest" (Guide to Glorantha p9). The aim of Joy is to acquire the Infinity Rune/achieve (not Nysaloran) Illumination. I think the Loskalmi have special spells that can only be cast either in a state of joy or having experienced a state of joy and these spells repeat to some extent the special abilities of an illuminate. Most Loskalmi joyous battle spells would be of the ability to combine incompatible runes

In addition to the names that Jeff has mentioned, I've used Entruli. The best information about Entru is probably history of the Heortling Peoples p97. Originally the people were of the wilds and friends to plants and animals. They were nearly destroyed by the creatures of darkness (trolls?) but King Hooafting saved them by building sacred forts (perhaps the -plose places?). Their unity was destroyed when Beked was slain. They also offended the gods who sank their sweet city Herilia (I think this is meant to be Erenplose). Also I think the sinking of Erenplose should happen in the flood age and before the problems with the trolls. They are culturally Orlanthi having been exposed to Orlanthi ways since the Storm Age (basically put after the seas flooded the place, the Vingkotlings came and drove the seas back. So IMO there is a distinct strain of wild-living (hunter/gatherers) among the entruli which has been superseded by the Orlanthi cattle-farming ways. Plus you have further influences from Esrolia, Safelster and the now sunken Slontos. The Helerings were mostly destroyed by the great darkness except for a few surviving colonies along the manirian shore (Sartar Companion p263). I think following the example of the Coming Storm, they would be strongest around the rivers and lakes of Maniria but mixed in with other Orlanthi. A clan or two undboutedly exists. But the largest remant of Haranding Culture, the Haradlaro became part of Esrolia under king Longsi a long time ago. I think they were there since the Storm Age having been part of the same migration that settled God Forgot. Their original home was New Malkonwall on the western shore of the Faralinthor Sea (cf Guide p688 and p691). The first settlements were trading posts but they became more populous after Malkion was murdered and New Malkonwal sunk. In the Middle Sea Empire p44 onwards, there is reference to the Book of Secrets (an Arkati version of the Abiding Book) which was opened in Slontos at the end of the Imperial Age (and which promptly sank the place). So rather than following the Abiding Book, the Malkioni will be heavily influenced by the Book of Secrets and have different magics (finding out hich magic is right and proper and which magic is not would be a big obsession among their wizards). Ramalia is as evil as you want it to be. I however make their fear of the sea to be real and that a large portion of their heavy taxation goes to supporting wizards who keep the land magically dry. My best guess is that they are from Safelster intent on visiting an important place in Arkat's journey. Perhaps they are interested in finding and looting the Convergences which exists in the pass. The Loper People come from Teshnos and were raiding Maniria at the time. Thus I doubt there would be native populations there (a secret tradition leftover from a defeated army? fine). Their magic can be whatever you want it to be (My own theory is that they commanded magical tides that would allow them to wield the magic of whatever local gods and spirits lived in the region).

Demibirds are said to have solid bones so there's no need for them to be significantly larger than an ostrich. As for the Augners, I think they are true birds and so any avilry would be limited (skirmishers etc). There's a good reason why the horses became the steed of choice.

It's taken the illustration on p207 of HeroQuest: Glorantha.

The Kolati Winds are given in the Sartar Companion and are different from the Pentan scheme. Humakt and Vadrus are called in the Book of Heortling Mythology "the chill North Winds". North Wind is also mentioned a few times (once at the battle of Stormfall and distinguished from Humakt, another in the strange fragment of King of Sartar p67). Storm Bull is more likely to be the East Wind to the Orlanthi since his winds blow out of the Wastelands compared to Dragon Pass. The South Wind may be Heler but I'm basing this on probably superseded information in Storm Tribe: Cults of Sartar - I doubt that it's Brastalos. The identity of the West Wind is kind of open and I'm kind of inclined to associate them with Vadrus and his sons.

Sir Narib's Hall and Sir Narib's Compnay Barracks appear on the map of Nochet just south of the Harmast Gate. The map in question is a recent one and put up http://www.glorantha.com/nochet-city-of-queens/

I would make the Swordbrothers Praxian. The Flash Jack, Amber and Potor were once said (verbally) to be Pol Joni related (ie they weren't pol joni but had similar origins) rather than Praxian. I have no idea what the current story is.

Sakum is however mentioned in the Guide Map p159. Have a look at the legends surrounding the four races. On the south, upside down, are the letters Sakum (which I see you think is Sramak). And Revealed Mythologies is still part of the new canon.

Possible but unlikely. Mahaquata is to Quatanara as to Jagrekriand is to Shargash more like, an enemy image of a god. As to the two different types of Bat-winged trolls, you don't need two different deities to explain the variation. The older version is probably the four limbed version (as per the modern bat). The six-limbed version may have been influenced by either the Lunars (Arachne Solara has multiple limbs) or through the EWF (Ruler Dragonewts with wings). This could also mean there are four-armed trolls running around.

I think Mahaquata and Quatanara are the same deity (Mahaquata is the Dara Happan version). Pavis: Gateway to Adventure p324 calls her the Black Bat rather than the Blue.

The winged trolls were bat-winged IIRC. Probably through worshipping Mahaquata.

I think the Phantom Cities of the Plateau are echoes of the original Mernita. The Uz do not live there but herd their sacrifices into the city so that they disappear mysteriously. Some of the sacrifices do not disappear but remain behind as oracles of the Blue Moon.

The winged trolls actually came from some of Greg's writings so it wasn't something that the ILH-1 authors made up. That said there's many other things in Greg's writing that doesn't appear in or is ruled out by the Guide so winged trolls may not actually exist. Trollpak did have a lovely encounter of blue moon trolls being pulled around in a flying wagon being pulled around by giant luna moths (they also used the moth scent to mark tarkets so that the moths could track them). Sadly when it came to the RQ3 version (reprinted in Into the Troll Realms), someone looked up the ENC rules and decided it could no longer work. So instead the assassins there are following the Luna Moth instead. There is a city on the Blue Moon Plateau which was given to the trolls by Magnificus (Mask of the Emperor that killed Sheng Seleris) in order to pacify them (Fortunate Succession p60). This is probably the city of Lakistalia where the Duke of the Blue Moon lives (Guide p347)

When I start seeing phrases like "non-Hsunchan shape shifting traditions" or a "Hsunchen shamanic entity accessed via non-Hsunchen", I reach for my fear we are embracing overly precise definitions without light. The subject at hand was shape-shifting merfolk. You don't need to make statements about the Hsuncheness or Non-Hsuncheness of specific shapeshfting traditions. What you should be doing is describing how a shape-shifting tradition might work among the merfolk (is it a warrior tradition like the Seshnelan Warrior Societies or the one geared to controlling beasts for the benefit of society like the Jaskali or the Gorakiki?). That would be a more productive approach than reasoning on the basis of whether or not they use spirits. Triolina is not a useful goddess here as she's *all* *life* rather than a specific shape (kinda like the difference betwen Uleria and Ernalda among the Heortlings so to speak). Gods of Glorantha is over 30 years old and the statement that all Triolini deities are worshipped by theistic methods is incorrect. Missing Lands describes a three-fold cosmology among the Merfolk - the Deities who are wisdom and spirit, the children of Daliath and Framanthe, the Watery Ancestors who are wisdom and waters, the children of Daliath and Sramake. So there's ample opportunity for the Merfolk to use whatever magics they see fit (even sorcery as they had contact with the Waertagi) I'm not saying that a merfolk shapeshfting tradition must use spirits. It can use spirits, it can use feats from the Gods, it can use spells to make enchanted cloaks etc. Just flatly ruling stuff out is a rather poor way given that we don't have much material on merfolk and we don't have much material on how shapeshifting would work among the Hsunchen spirit-users (we do have ample material on the Telmori but Gbaji has made it too easy).

I don't think this kind of reasoning is valid anymore (for example the Kolati get along just fine with most of the Orlanthi worshipping Gods). If what's being argued about is whether the merfolk have a tradition of shapeshifting to sea-beast form then the best parallel is Gorakiki whose worship among the trolls is analogous to Hsunchen shapeshifting. I don't see why this would be impossible among the merfolk.

I treat the subject of different states of illumination like this. Acquiring the Infinity Rune is done by everybody who has become a hero, demigod or dragon etc. However the particular awareness of the Infinity Rune in such circumstances is narrow (being only one blind man feeling an elephant so to speak). The states of illumination in Glorantha (Nysaloran, Lunar, Arkati, God Learner, Draconic, Vithelan and the Cult of Silence) are much wider (ie feel more parts of the elephant) and can be achieved outside the process of becoming a Hero, Dragon etc. Draconic awareness is wide because although traditional it is practiced by humans who find the draconic reality to be rather alien to their everyday sensations.

I lean your way. Occluded would be most commonly heard in the Empire as a term of abuse. Policing of Occluded would most commonly be done through the Dart Competitions. One could appeal to the Emperor on whether so-and-so is occluded but this would be rarely done these days given the predilections of the current Red Emperor ("Wow, that's awesome!: etc). The other authorities would be the Great Sister, JarEel (who might give supporters of the EelAriash clan a pass), the Red Dancer of Power or the Duke of the Blue Moon. However going to other demigods, you run the risk of the accused being declared Occluded only in areas under their influence.

It's widely proclaimed to be a stage of salvation on the Lunar Way. Look at the cults of the Seven Mothers in Pavis: Gateway to Adventure or HeroQuest: Glorantha. There's two steps to becoming a Lunar. The first is the acquisition of the Moon Rune, The second is becoming Sevened which is Illumination. There is really no such thing as a devotee of the Seven Mothers. There are the Seveneds/Illuminates. Becoming Sevened is done through the Sevening Rites (although the Nysaloran Riddles taught by the Order of Day are also used). There are Naturals, according to the Entekosaid, people who are illuminated without outside intervention. It's also possible for someone to become illuminated through a powerful psychic event (although I have to doubt that being captured by Broos and being forced to listen to riddles would work). Lunar Examiners and many illuminates can relaibly detect the Illuminated. They can't detect Occlusion. They can only infer a person is occluded based on what he does.

That's their current population in a world of seven billion. How large would their population have been in the age of the Ottomans, Ilkhanate, Abbasids etc.? My point is not that they will maintain their unchanged traditions within the next 500 years (I really don't know) that they have maintained their traditions for over 500 years* and thus it's not unreasonable that the Esvulari could do also. I only mentioned the Yazidis as opposed to the Parsees, the Druze and the Sabaens was that they had two endogamous castes similar to that which you were worried would unviable among the Esvulari. I am quite happy to agree that the Esvulari would have been on the lower bounds of the necessary population to maintain cultural continuity. *Strictly speaking they would say something like 2000 years but I'm wise in the way of back-dating traditions to realise that the current traditions could have come into being significantly later than than.

All Malkioni populations are originally Zzaburite. As for the Hrestoli, the Aeolians could have encountered them any time within the past 375 years before the Sunstop due to naval contact with the Seshnegi and the Slontans via the Waertagi. The relevance of the tribute to this particular point escapes me. A small sidebar here: I'm not really interested these days in nailing down precise reconciliations of the old material with the new canon as I am of the view there are multiple ways in which such harmony can be achieved and that it's all largely a matter of individual taste. So I don't think the above suggestion is really necessary to explaining why the Esvulari have no warrior caste. Secondly the explanations I posted were suggestions which *deliberately* *contradicted* each other. I didn't have a care in the world which ones people liked the best (Okay I do, a little bit). I care even less about technical analysis of their relevant merits. What I would have been most interested in reading was similarly veined explanations/short-and-sweet mythlets about why the Esvulari have no warrior caste rather than a learned digression on the political theatre which is simultaneously well-known, debatable in many places and avoids providing decent suggestions. And on the subject of the Spell Forbidden By Urostio could have been cast against: I'm going to go out on a limb here and say All Of Them. Perhaps they cast the spell multiple times and the loss of the warrior caste is the result of their abuses?

Any number of reasons spring to mind. A data point to consider is that the Esvulari do not also have Men-of-All yet are pretty good transmitters of God Learner governmental practices. 1) The Esvulari see the Men-of-All as evil and responsible for the abuses of the Cosmos that led to the calamities at the end of the Imperial Age. Thus they have no men-of-all and by extension a warrior caste to cleanse them of evil. The commoners took up arms later when it was found that fighting was still required. 2) The Esvulari Noble Caste is actually extinct (eaten in the Dragonkill) and that the so-called Noble Caste are actaully warriors. For ceremonial purposes in their magic, the Esvulari acknowledge the Talar of God Forgot as their lawful sovereign (who in return may not even know). 3) At the end of the Imperial Age to save his people, a desperate Esvulari wizard got his hands on the Spell Forbidden by Urostio and cast it. It didn't have the desired effect but it did magically abolish the caste differences between the warriors and the farmers to such an extent that even magic spells to detect caste cannot see any difference. Over time, they've similar stopped caring about trying to observe the differences. Any one of these or similar to these or even in the same vein would work.

The Esvulari do not have a warrior caste according to Jeff.