metcalph

To reveal a philosophical truth about the Invisible God would require mental unity with It This is a bit different from accosting strangers in the agora and asking strange questions. I've already stated my position above on the multiple categories of hero, ancestor and ascended master. I don't see that multiple ascended masters having rune spells because of them being heroes or ancestors refutes the guide's statement. That the Rokari view prayer to the Ascended Masters as barbaric superstition *and* also worships them could just mean that the Rokari are trapped between practice and principle as their barely disguised Hsunchen warrior societies demonstrate. Edit: It just occurred to me that an order like the White Wizards might be popular among the Rokari for the reason that the founder is unknown and can't be prayed to, thus avoiding the superstition.

There was an intended HeroQuest work which put a lot of detail into the Saints. The only problem was they seemed to be more Christian than Malkioni.

I'm not really seeing the westerners having fewer heroes than other people. The Prosopedia lists quite a few Malkioni heroes: Arkat, Gerlant, Herjan, Hrestol and Talor. As for Ascended Masters, the Guide p51 gives Xemela, Tomaris, Halwal, Tryensaval, Snodal and Siglat. It also notes: I suppose if you follow an Ascended Master's lifestyle (for Xemela, this might be harm no living thing), you either get a bonus to henosis (in RQ:G terms this means learning runic knowledge or creating a new sorcery spell) or to Rightness. The identity of the Master is for most purposes irrelevant. What is important is the path they have established. For example, among the Rokari there is an order known as the White Wizards. They may predate Rokarism being associated at one point with Zzabur himself. Who established the order is unknown so far and unimportant. All that matters is observing the well-known requirements for being a White Wizard. These requirements could be pythagorean (eat no meat and no touching the beans).

Most people (Malkioni included) use Rune or Spirit Magic. The only people who learn and study sorcery are their wizards (ie the type of people covered by the Philosopher occupation in RQ;G) If you think there should be a separate occupation to handle a full-time sorceror rather than one who muses about the nature of the cosmos, then go for it, I'm just not that familiar with the rules to number-crunch the occupation. All Malkioni practice Rightness and Caste Magic. https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/notes-on-hrestol-and-the-invisible-god/ No rules have been presented for them yet. My guess is that they function similarly to shamanic gifts, except that the effects are more redolent of sorcery than spirit magic. Most Malkioni have three points of rightness with leaders having five or more. FIGHTER: Ward against [weapon]: Each point adds two points of protection against damage from a chosen weapon. Critical hits still bypass. NOBLE: Air of Authority: Each point allows +10% in skill in all communication skills employed against those of lower castes. WIZARD: Arcane Attack: Each point adds two magic point to the magician's magic points towards overcoming an opponent's magic points when casting a spell. FARMER: Stoicism: Each point improves the caster's standard of living by one in his or her mind. Thus destitute becomes poor etc.

Ascended Masters are Malkioni who have revealed a philosophical truth about the Invisible God to mortals. They are distinct from Heroes, Gods and Ancestors. Many of the Saints in the old sources would be classified differently now. Gerlant and Talor are described as Ascended Masters yet it is quite difficult to imagine what deep insight they had about the Invisible God. Gerlant is described in the Prosopedia as a Hero and worshipped for his flaming sword. Talor likewise is a hero who probably teaches the Humor runespell. One gets the feeling they have been described as Ascended Masters to glorify the countries they established. Hrestol and Arkat on the other hand have significantly revealed truths about the Invisible God. Both are also heroes who can be worshipped for the magics they have acquired. Rokar is an an example of an Ascended Master who is not a Hero or Ancestor. Perhaps the reason the Rokari are down on the worship of Ascended Masters for magic is that it tends to show up Rokar's lesser statue compared to the others already mentioned.

Yes. Arachne Solara didn't exist at the time the Invisible God made the Cosmos. What she has now is merely a measure of her power *within* the Cosmos whereas the Invisible God is before and beyond that.

Nope. What was said was: That is well short of all Western mythology is a lie. Zzabur may himself believe that he is a mortal based on a false syllogism but it does not follow from that that the whole western mytholy is a complete fabrication. Then only a few sentences later, Greg says:

There's three groups. 1) The Artmal who are descended from the Blue Moon (and are not Westerners). They were active in Pamaltela and later Teshnos. 2) The Oronin who are Blue Waertagi. They were active in Fronela and Western Peloria. 3). The Blue Vadeli. Worked with the other Vadeli. We're active in the Western Ocean.

Looking at previous works, I don't think the content of the mythology book should be particularly surprising. There's: The Introduction. Mainly an essay defining the terms. The World. A brief description of the world. The Monomyth. A condensed version of the mythology and history of glorantha. First appeared in Cults of Terror. The Mythic Maps. Another version of what was in the Guide. The Catalogue of the Gods. The Universal Cult Format. A revised and updated version of the same from Cults of Terror. Cult Distribution. An expanded version of a table in Cults of Prax. Much of this has appeared before *but* more importantly, they do not appear in a Runequest: Glorantha source. If somebody were to ask Glorantha was like in the Golden Age, do I refer them to the Guide? Or the Glorantha Sourcebook? Are these Runequest works?, they might ask. Umm, no. Telling newcomers to look at Cults of Terror for a description of the Universal Cult Format and they might wonder why they are being pointed to a forty year old source. So the Mythology Book is really the supporting material in Cults of Prax, Cults of Terror and Gods of Glorantha republished for the Runequest: Glorantha line.

My guess is that it covers one who practices rightness and caste magic (based on wot Jeff has said elsewhere). The known population figures are too large for them to be wizards alone. The Trader Princes are not described as a majority in the Guide and Cults of Runequest: the Lightbringers p37 indicates the Trader Princes functioned in the place of Orlanth Rex in other countries. God Forgot is perhaps explainable by counting the people under the authority of the Talar of God Forgot as of 1625 (ie Bandori and Marcher County 30K), the long term inhabitants of Casino Town (another 5k) and so on. The worshippers of Choralinthur are probably native Rightarmers/Diroti/Pelaskites rather than God Forgotten/Brithini. As such they would occupy a sizable chunk of the rural population. The Carmanians are heretics (or rather innovative to use a less loaded term) in that they believe the Material World does not proceed from their Invisible God but was rather a separate Creation. The Aeolians are likewise divergent due to their conception of the Invisible God judging by what the Prosopedia says. The worship of other gods alongside the Invisible God is not in itself a divergence from orthodox Malkioni practice. Greg used to muse about some Carmanians being licensed to worship Ganesatarus but they could just be ethnic Spolites willing to play along the Magi in return for not having their heads kicked in on a regular basis. I don't think he's the God of Bad Sorcery as that's the long lost Fronalako (ie "Fronelan Malkion") who does show up in the Prosopedia p43 as an emanation of Ganesatarus. My guess is that while Idovanus is the God of Light and Ganesatarus is the God of Darkness, Malakinus is a lunarized version of the Invisible God ("The Seven Phases of the Red Moon show how Fuel can become Fire and Matter can become Energy... etc. etc.") Another way of looking at it might be that Idovanus is wholly Thought and equivalent to the Full Moon while Ganesatarus is wholly Gross Matter and equivalent to the Black Moon. The worshippers of Malakinus would then be divided into five groups - two halves, two crescents and one dying - who are either spiritually purifying themselves or embarking on an increasingly degenerate exploration of various vices to become worthy of Idovanus or Ganesatarus. Some just be be middling along neither rising nor falling. One thing I should stress is that Malkionism is centered on the conduct of the Wizards (or Vizers if Carmanian). Everybody else is largely an afterthought. The local community will do whatever their Vizier says is legitimate. It is not a faith that places much stress on personal salvation. So if a village worships Ganesatarus, they're not necessarily bad people but that their vizier is dutifully following the Dark Path that was taught to him.

p79: The legend for the picture mentions Xenth. Should be Xentha. p90: Unworldly marsh has no source cited. p98: Alarkaverir has (K) as a source. Possibly should be GC as per other New Serenity material. p99: Dozaki's Path has the source (UK,...). Should be UL for Uz Lore. p109: Artmal's RUin: The U is the wrong captial.

Brief observations - The mythical kingdoms (Brilliance etc) don't quite line up with the Guide. Wasn't expecting them to and the in-gloranthan list of references suggests why this might be so. - The Carmanians worship Malakinus (9%) separately from Idovanus (10%) and Ganesatarus (2%). Possibly Malakinus is a Lunarized version of the IG? - God Forgot has a large proportion of non-IG worshippers (about 70% in total). I suspect this is refugees from the war. - The Seven Mothers is surprisingly prominent among the Bison, Impala, High Llama and Rhino. 1% each as opposed to the near-zero I would have expected. Might be slaves.

https://www.chaosium.com/cults-of-runequest-mythology-hardcover/ No hardcopy in Oz yet. PDFs buyable here: https://www.chaosium.com/cults-of-runequest-mythology-pdf/

Duke Raus of Rone. Is the head of his household and an ancestor worshipper. I would have previously said that he was a Carmanian but since then (Cults of RuneQuest: the Lightbringers), there's undoubtedly a native Pelorian tradition that's suitable. You think that to lead the household, one must be a shaman. I disagree. The shaman only leads the spiritual side of the family - for the temporal side, no shamanic status is required. Considering that Duke Raus' ancestral worshipping status has been known for some time, I don't think people were unaware of the need for a non--shamanic ancestor worshipping cult. More probably they looked at the possibility and decided against it for reasons that may or may not be the ones that I previously advanced.

Given that he has the spirit rune, it seems axiomatic to me that shamanism is central to the cult. Considering that the Seshnegi have had ancestral worship in practically the first reference, the concept of a shamn-free cult would have been written up by now if it existed.

I use Wizards rather than your original question of Zzaburi to avoid confusion. Looking at the RuneQuest: Glorantha rules, I would say that people who have learned a rune or technique are part of the Invisible God and that people who have only learned a sorcery spell are not. At this definition the Lhankorings and the Zorak Zorani who have the appropriate understanding are with the Invisible God. Many human sects would adopt a more restricted definition which largely hinges on their cult likes and dislikes. Thus a Rokari would not consider an Arkati or a Lhankoring as a fellow worshipper of the Invisible God.

A Seshnegi would use Worlath to describe the Storm God of Lankst and Delela. I do think that as a result of the False Gods revolt, the Umathelans worship their Storm God as Worlath. Apparently not according to the Prosopedia. He has just a doubled Fire rune whereas Yelm also has Life and Death. There's also Galanin who has a doubled fire rune and a beast which apparently stems from him as the bearer of the Sun Disc, Ehilm. I have my suspicions about what this all means.

The Invisible God is the collective intellects of the Wizards on the God Plane. It acts through them. It is an error to worship the Invisible God in the same way it is an error to worship yourself. People have spoken of a magic spell called "worship Invisible God". That is more like a charitable contribution to the upkeep of the Wizards. The Invisible God is always acting at all levels. At the highest level, he is the Creator. At the lowest level, he is the Wizard casting a spell on you. The Invisible God is by definition Abstract. This is not a matter of belief. Its existence can be magically proven without the need for a priori belief. It always gives feedback.

There have been plenty of RW civilizations in which the nobility practiced shamanism. Given that Malkion's Solace happens to be proof of the afterlife and eventual reincarnation. I'm really not seeing the need for the "covert peasant thing" snobbery.

I really don't have a problem with Seshnegi ancestral worship being shamanic. Seshnela is the centre of the world (so the Seshnegi believe) and has room for all sorts of religious philosophies. Their armies worship Hsunchen deities and those are still shamanic in basis. Yes, the Wizards would have strong philosophical objections to shamanism being the foundation of noble religious belief. That is over the centuries, why they have undermined the shamans by encouraging the worship of rune cults ("Behold! Aerlit is actually Orlanth and you can have rune priests and shit. I haz proof!"). Their experience in transforming ancestral cults into something more palatable to their philosophical sensitivities leads directly into their experiences in remaking the Cosmos as God Learners. The Wizards might have succeeded in eliminating shamanic influence in the God Learner period - the disasters that resulted is clear proof that the shamans are meant to be. Mythically the Seshnegi would explain the conflict by the Wizards being the heirs of Zzabur and the Shamans being the heirs of Malkion the Old*. Since Zzabur betrayed Maljkion the Old leading to the latter's death and dismemberment, it's little wonder relations between the two are so bitter. I wouldn't appeal to the three worlds of magic as a source of hostility as there is no prohibition on sorcery usage by Daka Fal at any level in Cults of RuneQuest: the Lightbringers. I have seen seen ancestral worship in Seshnela as confined to the nobility historically. But of late, this has changed not through conscious policy decisions. The first is that as a reaction against God Learnerism, the Wizards have retreated from playing an active role in moulding society. They are still willing to do Big Stuff for the Nobles but they have become so haunted by the past destruction caused by their errors that they no longer trust themselves. The second is that as a result of a lengthy period of peace, the numbers of Nobles in society have increased. There are too many to be sustained by traditional means and accordingly many nobles (second sons etc) have seen fit to look for new ways of making a living. One of these has been the willingness of Shamans to leave the confines of their established temples to establish new shrines among the commoners. The angry wizards have yet to respond. *Malkion the Old created the Spirit World to provide Solace (life after death and eventual reincarnation). There's also Malkion the Law whose existence provides Caste Magic for everybody, Makan who provides sorcery and lastly Malkion the Founder. I have no idea as yet what role he provides within Malkioni society.

He could have still fathered some Agimori lineages much as Zorak Zoran did for the Trolls.

I think you are confusing the method used to worship those Gods (ie Ancestor worship) with ontological statements about status of those Gods (ie minor, major or great). Pamaltela is worshipped as an Ancestor by the Men-and-a-half of Prax but that doesn't make him small. SurEnslib could be a great deity for all anybody knows but the Darjiinians don't care to find out because the ancestral manner which they worship her in pisses off the Dara Happans.

The orthodox wizards learn sorcery through mental union (Henosis) with the One Mind. In the RW, they would be neo-platonists. The Arkati use these methods of mental union to attain conscious with the Gods. In the RW, they would follow Iamblichus. The Arkati and the Rokari wizards hate each other for various reasons (some phiosophical, others historical). The Ralians and Seshnegi follow the judgment of their magical leadership in thinking the worst of each other (although these reasons are mainly historical). The Carmanians believe the Material World (Corrupt, Evil) is equal to the One Mind (Good, Pure). In their RW they would be some hypothetical group of dualistic neo-platonists. They are too far away for even the Loskalmi to even think about them. The Jonatelans are orthodox Malkioni. They differ from the Seshnegi in that they follow the older Hrestoli teachings rather than the Rokari. They differ from the Loskalmi in that they have not be able to take these teachings to an extreme. The Loskalmi consider them overrun by gods who have been allowed to run amok. The Aeolians are similar to the Arkati in belief. Where they differ is that the Arkati are more cynical in their worship of the Gods - seeing them as means to combat the deceiver. An Arkati could quite happily consider breaking the tenets of a God that he worships because he's illuminated. He only choses to do so in secret because past experience is full of the bad things that happened to people who didn't. The Aeolians are far more devout and would not even think of such a thing.

To confound matters: However there's an out. They already have a history of "reduc[ing] the immortals into mere superhuman heroes or multi-national ancestors" CoR:Lightbringers p81. I dunno what effect this has on their magic. My current thinking is that magic that comes from the caster works (ie Lightning) but that magic that comes from elsewhere (ie Thunderbolt or Sunspear) does not. Basmol: Lion Society Chalana Arroy: Xemela, Hrestol's Mom. Daka Fal: Malkion the Old. Eurmal: Yomat, friend of man. Ernalda: Seshna Likita ("It's complicated") Gustbran: Vieltor Yelamlio/Galin: Horse Society. Humakt: Humct. Gods of Glorantha described him as a wizard but the Prosopedia has refined him into a sword bearing Erasanchula. Issaries: Garzeen. Orlanth: Aerlit. Other names for him - Erulat and Humat - are associated IMO with Ralians. River God: Tanier. Storm Bull: Bull Society. Ordinary I would have thought it was Tawars but Storm Bull gets to Fronela in the Dawn Age and there is a Bull invasion of Seshnela (from Fronela) shortly after that. Telmor: Wolf Society Ehilm is a bit of an outlier. I would have made him another name for Yelmalio but the Prosopedia gives him a doubled fire rune?! Will have to wait for the Fire Gods Book.

It's from Cults of Prax in which Naimless shows up to a Humakti duel with sword-wielding Dark Trolls. These Dark Trolls are Humakti from the Sazdorf Tribe which means they weren't friends of Naimless but friends of the Temple of the Wooden Sword.