metcalph

I think you are confusing the method used to worship those Gods (ie Ancestor worship) with ontological statements about status of those Gods (ie minor, major or great). Pamaltela is worshipped as an Ancestor by the Men-and-a-half of Prax but that doesn't make him small. SurEnslib could be a great deity for all anybody knows but the Darjiinians don't care to find out because the ancestral manner which they worship her in pisses off the Dara Happans.

The orthodox wizards learn sorcery through mental union (Henosis) with the One Mind. In the RW, they would be neo-platonists. The Arkati use these methods of mental union to attain conscious with the Gods. In the RW, they would follow Iamblichus. The Arkati and the Rokari wizards hate each other for various reasons (some phiosophical, others historical). The Ralians and Seshnegi follow the judgment of their magical leadership in thinking the worst of each other (although these reasons are mainly historical). The Carmanians believe the Material World (Corrupt, Evil) is equal to the One Mind (Good, Pure). In their RW they would be some hypothetical group of dualistic neo-platonists. They are too far away for even the Loskalmi to even think about them. The Jonatelans are orthodox Malkioni. They differ from the Seshnegi in that they follow the older Hrestoli teachings rather than the Rokari. They differ from the Loskalmi in that they have not be able to take these teachings to an extreme. The Loskalmi consider them overrun by gods who have been allowed to run amok. The Aeolians are similar to the Arkati in belief. Where they differ is that the Arkati are more cynical in their worship of the Gods - seeing them as means to combat the deceiver. An Arkati could quite happily consider breaking the tenets of a God that he worships because he's illuminated. He only choses to do so in secret because past experience is full of the bad things that happened to people who didn't. The Aeolians are far more devout and would not even think of such a thing.

To confound matters: However there's an out. They already have a history of "reduc[ing] the immortals into mere superhuman heroes or multi-national ancestors" CoR:Lightbringers p81. I dunno what effect this has on their magic. My current thinking is that magic that comes from the caster works (ie Lightning) but that magic that comes from elsewhere (ie Thunderbolt or Sunspear) does not. Basmol: Lion Society Chalana Arroy: Xemela, Hrestol's Mom. Daka Fal: Malkion the Old. Eurmal: Yomat, friend of man. Ernalda: Seshna Likita ("It's complicated") Gustbran: Vieltor Yelamlio/Galin: Horse Society. Humakt: Humct. Gods of Glorantha described him as a wizard but the Prosopedia has refined him into a sword bearing Erasanchula. Issaries: Garzeen. Orlanth: Aerlit. Other names for him - Erulat and Humat - are associated IMO with Ralians. River God: Tanier. Storm Bull: Bull Society. Ordinary I would have thought it was Tawars but Storm Bull gets to Fronela in the Dawn Age and there is a Bull invasion of Seshnela (from Fronela) shortly after that. Telmor: Wolf Society Ehilm is a bit of an outlier. I would have made him another name for Yelmalio but the Prosopedia gives him a doubled fire rune?! Will have to wait for the Fire Gods Book.

It's from Cults of Prax in which Naimless shows up to a Humakti duel with sword-wielding Dark Trolls. These Dark Trolls are Humakti from the Sazdorf Tribe which means they weren't friends of Naimless but friends of the Temple of the Wooden Sword.

There's always been a difference between what the old rules said and what Greg's writings described. Even the God Learners were described as worshipping Diros and Wachaza in their early years. Nowadays I don't view Malkioni as believers in the Invisible God - I view them as believers in the Wizards. They believe whatever the Wizards tell them is good and adjure whatever the wizards tell them is bad. The Wizards don't like the worship of Gods. At the same time, they recognize that worship is unavoidable. Therefore they carefully regulate what Gods may be worshipped and what Gods are to be forbidden. Of course, the Malkioni being humans will have practices that fall significantly short of that ideal. In Seshnela, the Wizards are heavily dependent on the Nobility for access to land, magical materials and worshipped energy of the populace (their own philosophy teaches them that such decisions are for the Nobles to make). Therefore their decisions on what ought to be ends up pretty much favoring existing Noble practice.

On the subject of the herder god in Seshnela, I think it's a son of Dronar rather than Waha as people were hunting and herding animals before the Gods War (cf the Entekosiad). Waha is quite late mythically speaking to be the inventor of herding and butchery. In RQ terms, I think the gods of farming and herding (calling them Cael and Abin for now) would be men's subcults within the cults of the Grain and Herd Goddesses, with Dronar as an associate cult. There would also be a fishing god within the River cults.

On the subject of ancestors: This suggests to me that the Seshnegi Ancestors developed from the Example Ancestor Cults described in Cults of RuneQuest: the Lightbringers p84 to p85 into conventional rune cults. We have an example in reverse - Pamalt is worshipped by the Men-and-a-Half through an Ancestor Worship. A simple way of doing this would be to make the ancestor the subcult of a much greater rune cult and use the name of the ancestor for the rune cult within Seshnela. The Wizards would know the difference but since they are heavily dependent on Noble largess, they have a huge incentive to be silent. To preserve the importance of Ancestor Worship, Seshnegi Nobles that can claim descent from an Ancestor through the Male Line can worship him in a Rune Cult while Distaff Descendants can only worship him through Ancestor Worship (Cults of RuneQuest: the Earth Goddesses p122). There are exceptions such as Seshna Likita or perhaps Krajiid (Guide p417) but I think since the line of the Flame Kings has died out, Gerlant can only be worshipped as an ancestor (which fits better than his prior description as a Saint). There's seven houses. I'm tempted to pair them with the husband protectors of Ernalda using names from Seshnegi mythology. Aerlit for example is is a Storm God associated with Mount Aerlit in Nolos so I'm inclined to make them the main cult of the Hadelstolids, Arsonids and Estaurenids. who are said to be related. Making Ehilm the main cult of the Ballifids would give a good mythical reason for the numerous revolts in the south.

Some preliminary thinking. Assume a thousand Seshnegi. Genertela boxed set figures gives us: 50 wizards, healers and scribes 50 soldiers 10 lords 390 commoners. I have my doubts about some of the figures but that's not important right now. The community has two major temples - one to Seshna Likita and the other to the Noble Ancestor. There's also a Shaman Priest to Daka Fal to honor the other ancestors. All commoners and soldiers worship these Gods as lay members. Failure to do so is a insulting the Nobles and harshly punished. The Nobles alone are permitted to be initiates which means that priestly duties take up a far amount of the time of the ruling family. Since these duties largely happen to be the same as rule, this is not normally a problem. Every season (assumption made by me here, the source material Gods of Glorantha is unclear on this point), everybody worships the Invisible God kicking up a magic point to the wizards. 10% of that gets kicked up to Leplain, leaving 900 to spare. That's about 50 days worth of magic that can be cast by the wizards (assuming a POW of 18). The wizards can't spend it all on themselves as the others will feel left out. A sorcery spell requires 12 mp to last for a week and 15 mp to last for a season. Seasonal spells are more efficient magic pointwise but assuming an INT of 18, the max spell intensity is 3 as opposed to 6. Daily spells allow for higher intensities but I doubt the wizard can be bothered casting daily blessings - kissing noble ass once a week and enduring soldier stench once a season sounds doable. I assume the wizards cast weekly blessings on the nobles and seasonal blessings on the troops. Additionally the Nobles have three sorcerous blessings (Attack, protection and a miscellaneous buff), while the soldiers will only have two (Attack and protection). This requires 540 magic points a week for the Lords (10 lords x 18 mp spells x 3 blessings) and 225 points a week for the soldiers (50 soldiers x 18 mp spells x2 blessings / 8 weeks). That leaves 135 magic points for the wizards, which is double the magic points normally available to them every week. And from this, they are expected to cast big spells that benefit the community etc as well as magic for their own protection and research. What are they meant to do? Tap? So what's left. Taxing the temples. No, not the Noble temples but the commoners. A commoner temple to the Grain Goddess (which is distinct from the Noble temple to the Earth Goddess) would have 580 farmers who as lay members and initiates provide enough for a major temple. That's 580 magic points a season. To maintain a shrine only requires 75 lay members and initiates. So what the Wizards could do is to syphon magically the worship, leaving enough for basic religion. So 500 magic points gets collected from the temple once a season, yielding another 60 magic points a week. Other commoner temples being smaller can be taxed more harshly. Worshippers at a temple to Gustbran might have to spend 5 magic points a season instead of the standard one or two just in order to maintain their shrine status when they might have qualified for minor temple.

The Code of War - Guide p407

On starting out with iron, the real question is whether the weapon or armour is enchanted or not. Unenchanted iron may be commplace but I've a feeling they are handed out to people who suck at spirit magic. Enchanted iron would be much rarer and borne by nobles and horali weaponmasters. I do gave an idle thought about how some Seshnegi can ignore the presence of iron when casting magic (probably caste magic or a Humakti gift) but use its defensive properties for spells cast against them. The only drawback is in the case of being unconscious and in dire need of Heal 6.

I think the Seshnegi ancestors were originally spirits like Surenslib and Votank in the Daka Fal Cult writeup in Cults of RuneQuest: the Lightbringers. Over time and through Wizard research in the Dawn Age (alluded to in that paragraph in the Daka Fal cult writeup), they became associated with the Big Gods. Hence Aerlit, the father of Malkion, originally provided one storm related rune spell to his worshippers but today, he is worshipped as a subcult of Orlanth in Seshnela (to confuse matters, the Seshnegi refer to the entire cult of Orlanth as Aerlit). There are still ancestors that are worshipped through the rites of Daka Fal today (I think the local name for him is Malkion the Old but the contempuous wizards call him Daka Fal because of longstanding cult tensions). A noble would think nothing of worshipping at a temple of Aerlit or Seshna Likita and then going to the priest-shaman of Daka Fal and worshipping some other ancestor instead. Grain Goddesses, Barntar, the Lowfires etc. I think ancestral worship (ie Aerlit) is a prerogative of the nobility and that the Dronars can only act as lay members in the ancestral cults. I also think most of the magic obtained in the temples is syphoned off to be used by the local wizards. (Are the Noble temples to their ancestors similarly treated? Don't be silly) Some Dronars might serve the Wizards directly as Hunters (either of Monsters or Spirits or both). Think the Winchester Brothers or Scooby-Doo. A few dronars might be condemned and their "execution" is initiating into Humakt. That way, the Nobility can mobilize a few more troops without the Wizards getting antsy.

That's from the shrines to the Associate Gods in the main god temples. If they want other spirit magics, they have to go to the associate god's temple and join as a lay member.

In terms of becoming a Man-of-All (there's other forms of Hrestolism but this is the most blatant), there's a difference in my opinion between acting as a noble and legally being recognized as a noble. The former is required for a Man-of-All status, the latter is not. Therefore one can become a Man-of-All in Seshnela without being part of the establishment. I do feel that to attain the Talar caste, one has to be an actual leader of men. I don't believe the Wizards exert a policing function in Seshnegi society. They generally stay within their haunts, collecting the magic that is owed to them and casting the spells requested of them by the nobility. The Watchers and the like are principally concerned with policing the Wizards themselves to see whether they are engaging in Right Thought and abjuring forbidden philosophies (ie Hrestolism, Arkatism, God Learnerism) that will cause magical disasters if left unchecked. The Nobles on the other hand do concern themselves with the spiritual welfare of the subjects. If their subjects do not follow the minimal standards of prescribed caste behaviour or fail to turn over the required magics to the wizards, then that's a problem for the Nobles. But this doesn't require that everybody serving the Nobles be Rokari, merely that as many of them as practical. So a Seshnegi Noble meets a Man-of-All would be more like an Orlanthi King dealing with a Storm Bull warrior (or perhaps even a Gagarthi). Depending on his open-mindedness, he might be willing to retain the Man-of-All's services or send men to encourage him to move along. But to denounce the Man-of-All to the Wizards? Most Wizards have better things to deal with than to chase after a deranged madman and think it's the job of the nobility to sort out. So there's little incentive to ensure total conformity when the Nobles can live with some level of heterodoxy within their lands. That doesn't preclude some Watcher in Leplain having a watching brief to track all the Men-of-All within the Kingdom and casting magical curses at the more powerful ones. The principal concern of this Watcher is not that the Men-of-All are roaming the Kingdom but that they might be corrupting the local Wizards. So if a Wizard has a noteworthy encounter with a Man-of-All, the Watcher in Leplain would be more concerned about questioning the Wizard to ensure he hasn't fallen into error rather than hunting down the Man-of-All.

An enlarged company is what 100-200 fighters. The Esvularings are something like 100K (History of the Heortling Peoples p86) and would have at least a thousand professional warriors. If Rikard is recruiting exiles from Sartar, then those exiles would be unlikely Malkioni purists willing to trash Aeolian shrines. Moreover the Guide actually points out the Aeolians supported Rikard (p247) which is something they wouldn't do if he was oppressing them). Knight Fort is upriver from the Monkey Ruins (RQG p135). Since it is not present in the Guide, it's not around as of 1621 and probably was established later. Who is we? Also you are shifting from the original notion of cleansing *Aeolian* shrines of pagan idols to seizing idols of the Orlanthi (ie non-Aeolians). Which the big problem is this: according to you, Rikard has recruited Orlanthi exiles from Sartar whose attitude towards pagan shrines would be rather reverential. So I'm not really seeing any looting the temples to pay for mercenaries. There's circular reasoning going on here. Rikard must have a formidable force to loot the temples. But if he didn't loot the temples, he doesn't need such a formable force does he? But a better way of looking at this would be to look at the Holy Country army. Heortland has a population of 300k people. Assuming 1% professional warriors and another 9% tribal militia, that gives 3k professional warriors and another 27k militia. Rikard is King so can command these troops using the traditional methods (he's got the support of the Aeolians who used to run Heortland for Belintar). Even allowing for dissatisfaction with his rule and other commitments (guarding against Praxian raiders etc), he should still be able to muster an army of 20k without needing to loot any temples.

The Caprati come from Seshnela. Right next to Seshnela is Guhan. About seventy years ago, the Seshnegi fought a war against them which resulted in the Uz Eats Wizards (and their King too FWIW). Nobody needs a better reason to hate trolls than to have an ancestor dishonoured in that battle.

I don't think this is plausible. Rikard didn't bring an army with him and for him to persecute the Aeolians doesn't make much political sense and more importantly, the modern understanding of Malkioni (ie not Christians), he really wouldn't care about such things. His wizard(s) might grumble but Rikard can take an indugent view of their differences.

The story of Rikard breaking the crown into four pieces comes from King of Sartar p122 (2nd edition, was present in first). The Guide did not rewrite anything and asking questions about the tradetalk article just wastes time. Why would his family have been traditional enemies of Seshnela? All that is said that he comes from Tanisor which is the current heart of Seshnela! Given that the Guide p249 describes him as a "heretical Hrestoli exile", he is not necessarily related to the Royal Family and may not even be a noble at all. If there was a Tiger warrior society in Seshnela (created by Teshnan immigrants during the Imperial Age), then he could have been a horali leader who decided to seek his fortune aboard. That would fit in better with the description of him as an adventurer. The Lost Chapter (KoS p138) has Rikard accepting rule over all Heortland but breaking his oaths and escaping shortly afterwards.

I don't see it as needing to be fixed as it is a skill peculiar to the Yelmalio cult(s) whereas other mounted archers (Impala, Sable, Pentans, Wasp Riders etc) do not even use the skill at all.

Which is what both sides in this debate have already agreed (but only one side is apparently aware of this).

I'm not really seeing the Aeolians as non-monomyth. They were within the God Learner zone and since the God Learners obtained their mythology from the Lightbringers, Aeolian knowledge would be well and truly within the God Learner corpus. They would have some points of difference but the known points of difference (three castes rather than four, worship of the Gods) is comparatively trivial compared to what some of the supposedly orthodox Malkioni get up to. So Septuagint rather than Masoretic might be a better take IMO.

That was an old style of thinking which has since been abandoned. Chalana Arroy, Issaries, Orlanth and Humakt have always been known to the Praxians under that name.

If Barntar is worshipped in Sun County, I think he would be worshipped as a subcult of Ernalda (CoR:TL p77) rather than as a subcult of Orlanth Thunderous as they do up north. I expect this to be true of clans or tribes where the local Husband-Protector has no association to Barntar (ie isn't Orlanth).

Given that Giants are tied to the disorder rune (Glorantha Bestiary p45), I suggest deleting the bolded words..

There is still a Lunar population in Pavis after Argrath takes over.

Reconciling Cults of Terror with Arkat the Deceiver I think this began as a *study* of Gbaji with a view to identifying his signs and powers. Later the Arkati realized that it could be heroquested against with the damage they inflicted upon it be magically reflected in their enemies in the world at large. Any damage Gbaji inflicted upon them was acceptable losses. Accordingly every Safelstran City has a cult of Gbaji. Every season they have public stonings or burnings of the images of Gbaji. At the same time, the city's Arkati carry out magical combat against Gbaji. The images are usually representative of neighbouring cities although other states and species have been used (like say Theoblanc the White or an EWF Dragon). But the danger of these rituals is that with enough damage, an Arkati might succumb to the Deceiver. If undetected, the Arkati might become attracted to the Lords of Terror and join some horrible cult such as the Summer White Society, the Borists or the Chaos Monks.