Darius West

You raise an interesting point about what Mostali wear Erol. I imagine their ordinary clothes might be a bit like this... While Mostali lingerie might be a bit more like...

I am surprised no God Learners made the cut. Surely Gloranthan history's munchkins par excellence must have had some superheroes? I mean, they are all dead now, I assume, but still... If Errinoru almost makes the cut and he's dead...

According to what I've read Harvar was doing both.

Vingkotlings originate in Dragon Pass. They will pilgrimage to Kero Fin. The fact is, in Far Point Harvar Ironfist as part of the Lunar Occupation tried to convert everyone to Yelmalio worship by force, hence his sobriquet. That went down slightly less well than the more persuasive Lunar tactics elsewhere. The point being that my position is backed by references. There is no mention of Dog Orlanthi in Far Point, and no mention of Yelmalios until Harvar Ironfist builds his Sun Dome temple in Alda Chur. I'm certain that both of these anomalies would rate a mention somewhere if they were valid.

To quote from page 169: "Yelmalio: God of the Winter Sun, Preserver of the Light. When Yelm traveled to the Underworld, Yelmalio preserved the dim, cold light until he returned. He also fought against Orlanth at the Hill of Gold, and even stole fire from Elmal one time. He is now worshipped by some Orlanthi who have abandoned Elmal." Now ALL Orlanthi culture derives from the Heortlands. They may have headed north, but at their core they look to the Heortlands as the heartland of Orlanthi culture, because that is where the Orlanthi survivors of the Great Darkness came from and spread from. In later ages Orlanthi from the north will go on pilgrimage to Kero Fin and the Temple of Old Wind and learn how to be proper Orlanthi. Elmal should be treated as a separate deity, even if he is a similar deity. Elmal is a Thunder Brother and thus a distinct part of Orlanth's pantheon. Yelmalio clearly isn't. Elmal and Yelmalio are culturally distinct religious practices and will continue to be separate whether or not they worship the same deity. Ultimately it is the worshippers who will decide and they will do so based on politics, and that means most clans won't want the disloyal thane Yelmalio to walk among them. 👉We literally have a reference to Yelmalio stealing Elmal's fire powers one time.👈 This suggests to me that Elmal has retained his fire powers, which has long been part of my Elmal cult write-up. As far as I am concerned the matter is closed and I consider my position completely vindicated.

Well, first up, Elmal is listed as a Thunder Brother in the Stafford Library's "The Book of Heortling Mythology". The Thunder Brothers are all Orlanthi subcults. Yelmalio is not. I direct you to page 169 where the situation is laid out in the Yelmalio section. Frankly I think Greg Stafford's own words are good enough for me.

"Other" is a very broad category. Given their pike based fighting style I am also surprised that the Agimori don't include more Yelmalios, but then Yelmalio has a problem with fire, as he doesn't have any. As to Oakfed, it is primarily useful as a weapon, and it would be hard to justify the Agimori maintaining a large cult, even if they are resistant to flames and likely to Oakfed more effectively as a result.

I would like to see The Day of the Beast" campaign written for Pulp C'thulhu. I mean, Castles in Transylvania, Egyptian Adventures, fighting a Fu Manchu character in San Francisco etc... It is very pulpy stuff.

You'd think so, but the Agimori only seem to worship Lodril, their Hunter God, and Helpwoman. By the same token, you'd think that Praxians would have help from dogs in their herding, given that they venerate Brother Dog like the Balazarings, but they only have dogs as camp guards. Go figure...

Not so imo. Elmali have a very different set of myths about their god to those the Yelmalios have. How many sects in our world claim to follow the One True God, and yet how many schismatic iterations of that god are there? Aten, Ahura Mazda, Brahma, YHVH, El Elyon, Allah etc. etc. People can be very selective about what they believe and how they worship. They can also spin the so-called "Yelmalio Mythos" in a million different ways to tell the story they want to tell. I think the Elmal Mythos tells a very different story, about how a brow-beaten soldier god from the Solar Pantheon learned a different and freer way to live from the constrained life that had been forced upon him, and ultimately repaid his new more lenient lord with faithful service against chaos in the Greater Darkness.

That is equivocal, given that Belintar repeatedly incarnates into the winners of the Tournaments of Luck and Death. That seems more... "Ephraim Waite" than either heroic or superheroic, and not really godlike either. I suspect Pavis is more of a genuine deity, and he too seems to have gone from hero to God, albeit a small one.

What is your textual source for this claim ? Yes, but they are not part of Orlanthi society at this point, they are part of Solar society. So let's just ignore the civil war... I don't agree. In southern Sartar Monrogh founded Sun Country as a buffer state between the Holy Country/Heortlands and Sartar after he won the civil war. Other Orlanthi tribes have absolutely no reason to accept Yelmalio in place of their Elmal practices, and in fact they would and should reject them. Monrogh's vision of Yelmalio is the embodiment of the disloyal thane by Orlanthi standards. Monrogh's vision is one where Elmal betrays his oath of loyalty to Orlanth to become Yelmalio, becoming the Disloyal Thane. I doubt many Elmali want that smear to their honor, especially when it comes with the added sleaze of Lunar conspiracy and orchestration. Certainly no clan or tribe of Sartar wants disloyal thanes. That is assuming that clans will let Yelmalios on their Tula to attend their shrine of Elmal when in fact they won't.

Each clan has an "Eiritha" who has the head of their herd beast. These are the Herd Protectresses. Is it so hard to imagine an Eiritha with a human head? I imagine she will prominently smile to show her large flat grazing teeth.

Yelmalio isn't a friend or an associate. The best any tribe will tolerate is that they won't fight them if they meet them in a city. If they find them on their land, they had better have a damn good excuse as to why they are there. To suggest that the relationship is the same as that between Orlanth and Waha requires me to point out that strangers met in Prax are a threat, and unless they are met under some system of truce, the assumption is that they are up to no good. If Waha worshippers find Orlanthi in their lands, they fight them, capture them, and if they cannot get a ransom for them they enslave them. The Orlanthi regard the Waha worshippers in the same way. Again, there is a measure of truce observed at some market oases, but neutrality means the other party is neither a friend or an enemy, yet, but they are probably an enemy if their motives for being there are not clearly explained. Given that Orlanth killed Yelm, Yelmalio's relationship with Orlanth is never cordial and is one of ritual rivalry as demonstrated in both cult write-ups. There is little love lost between them. They will war over Ernalda's favor, not tolerate each other. The idea that this will help them co-exist when territory/land/earth is THE scarce resource is frankly absurd. Control of the land is what determines whose children thrive and whose starve, and whose culture and values thrives and whose starves. It is a literal matter of life and death. The notion of co-existence is dubious at best. Orlanthi will tolerate loyal Elmali among them, not rivals. ALL Orlanthi culture derives from the Heortlings from Before Time. Elmal has been part of high Orlanthi culture since Before Time. The idea that the Sairdites somehow changed over to Yelmalio worship just because they have some sort of hostile Solar influence is the opposite of how cultures react. They double down against hostile influences rather than accepting them. Any Elmali who joined Yelmalio would have been exiled from their clans.

Here I must disagree. Yelmalios are phalangites and Orlanthi don't have Yelmalios among them; they aren't friendly cults. The Heortland is the origin point of Orlanthi belief and Elmal spreads out from there. Also, just because a region is conquered by the Lunars doesn't mean they automatically adopt Yelmalio and chuck out Elmal. It just doesn't work.

I have now read multiple different and conflicting things about where the settlers in far Point came from. I strongly doubt that ANY Orlanthi tradition regards Yelmalio as part of their pantheon. Elmal is a Thunder Brother, while Yelmalio are those odd solar outsiders whom they have little to do with. I don't think Sairdite Orlanthi have a different tradition to Heortlanders on this matter. Proof of this is the lack of a Sun Dome temple in Alda Chur. After Harvar Ironfist comes to power one will be built, but not before. Yelmalio is simply not culturally part of Orlanthi society, and the Yelmalio cult hierarchy doesn't want to be part of Orlanthi society, in fact they are disdainful of it, and the reverse is equally true. Sairdite Orlanthi will have an Elmali tradition and will believe that Yelmalio is a separate deity with similar powers. This is not a matter similar to Catholics and protestants who admit they worship the same god; this is more like "Ahura Mazda is not Yahweh and is not Allah, and we have been fighting those other religions for years". All Orlanthi culture comes from the South in the Heortlands and moves north Before Time, and then subsequently during the First and Second Ages. This is when the Elmal cult is established in the Barbarian Belt in the lands north of Tarsh. Elmal exists in the Heortlands Before Time and goes north with the Barbarians. The various sun dome cults are small and insular by comparison and view themselves as separate from the Orlanthi. Elmali living among the Orlanthi do not see themselves as the same as these Solar Cultists. I have never seen anything on paper that says that Tarshite Orlanthi have no Elmal cult and instead embrace Yelmalio or Antirius, and I don't accept that any Orlanthi societies have a Yelmalio cult. Sun Domers are the frontier cult of the Solar Pantheon who exist to fight the Orlanthi on behalf of the Solar Gods, not befriend them. Each Sun Dome Temple is an incursion of Solar Worship into Orlanthi lands and is not seen in a friendly way. It might be tolerated, but it will not be liked, and relations are always strained.

I don't think you understood my position at all. I don't contest the idea that there are various Sun Dome cults coming out of Saird and Peloria. My issue is that the victory of Monrogh in the Elmal War within South Sartar/North Hendrikiland doesn't suddenly mean that all the Elmal worshippers in Sartar will suddenly give up on their Elmal traditions and become Yelmalio hoplites. I am also pointin out that Far Point, which is a very isolated part of Sartar, on a troll haunted border with terrain inhospitable to hoplite tactics, is in no hurry to adopt a style of Solar warfare that is not appropriate for their environment, and will be in no rush to adopt Yelmalio beliefs from the south. Most Far Pointer will likely see such acts as a slap in the face to everything they believe about their god, Elmal the Thunder Brother, and his place in the world.

On the contrary, Orlanthi don't fight in formations like Yelmalio hoplites, and this is who settled Far Point. Elmal is a spear and cavalry thane, but not a formation fighting hoplite. Hoplite tactics are utterly useless in the terrain of Far Point which is famously rainy, full of forested hills and bogs, where the Orlanthi often live in crannogs. Also Yelmalio societies are notoriously insular and overly structured, and are not a good fit with Orlanthi societies. While there is the Sun Dome temple at Goldedge in Tarsh, I can't find information on when Goldedge was settled; only that it provides mercenaries to the Lunars, which is not the same as saying it has friendly ties to the Orlanthi in Far Point. What I do not see is a Sun Dome temple in Far Point, and there isn't one until Harvar Ironfist shows up.

I disagree. Kargzant is Hyaloring Yelm and Yu-Kargzant is Grazelander Yelm. Jardan is the Grazelander's little sun, and is the Son of the Sun and the Earth, which is consistent with Yelmalio. I disagree. What goes in the rule books is mostly what gets used, especially by new GMs. Again, I disagree. I think that the people of Far Point live on the edge of Troll Territory, and the value of Elmal in fighting trolls cannot be underestimated. Having light powers is also extremely valuable when battling Chaos in Snakepipe Hollow. Back in RQ2 when there was only Yelmalio, and we didn't have an Elmal yet as the lore wasn't developed, I have watched how effective Yelmalio characters were in fighting Thanatari, and it was impressive, but it did involve making collapsible socket spears for climbing through narrow spaces first. As to Harvar not needing to convert anyone, I am quite sure I have read something very different, where Harvar suppresses Orlanth, then suppressed both Barntar and Elmal, but mainly Elmal as Harvar is a Yelmalio, and had great plans to make Far Point into a new Sun Country. Okay, I saw the link. I would point out that Kuschile Horse Archery doesn't apply to Ostriches, so in its present form, Yelmalio isn't much use to the Ostrich Riders. My argument has always been that we need to highlight and preserve the different traditions of the Little Sun, and in its present form, the Yelmalio cult write-up is in danger of being very incomplete. And I disagree that Monrogh's vision was not about everyone becoming a hoplite as religious fanatics are notoriously mono/megalomaniacal about adherence to their rules. Monrogh is such a stickler for rules he was reborn as the Yelmalio spirit of retribution ffs.

Consider radmonger, unless the Ostrich Riders get a separate entry to explain their position, how is a new RQG Game master going to know that? Yes, of course I have homebrewed Ostrich Rider Khim/Yelmalio, but I know the lore, as you do too. We need to commit these exceptions to paper in the RQG Gods of Glorantha books and insure their posterity, when the danger is they will be forgotten and ignored, and Ostrich riders will become monocultural hoplites or something equally silly and unlikely. We are not dealing with a one size fits all monoculture, we both know that. the danger is the false perception that a bad/ incomplete cult write-up could cause in RQG GoG. That is my concern. The success of Monrogh is grossly overstated in the present write-up afaik and doesn't adequately account for all the cultures who have a Little Sun cult that is not a hoplite cult, or a horse archer cult for that matter.

Nope. They are Antirius or Lightfore, and occasionally Yelmalio as it means "The little sun". As to who is the bumpkin, I find bumpkins tend to be closed minded and parochial, so that accounts for most of the so-called Yelmalians except for the Elmali imo.

Why would they have Yelmalio temples at all? The Yellow Planet is called Antirius or Lightfore among the Dara Happans. The Elmali War was only in Southern Sartar. This is where the Elmali converted to Yelmalio and was Monrogh's heartland. There may have been a few converts in Far Point, but the oppressive conversion efforts of Harvar Ironfist only begin in earnest after Starbrow's Rebellion fails in 1612. As to what is going on in Tarsh, they are likely Elmali, as they are ex-Orlanthi, but as "divide et impera" is a time honored imperialist strategy, we may assume that the Lunars will favor Monrogh's divisive civil war promoting agenda, as the enemy of their enemy is their tool (of oppression). Then there are the Jardan worshippers of the Grazelands... They didn't suddenly become Yelmalio hoplites, strangely enough. There are a fair few forms of "Yelmalio" in Prax. There are the Tharkantus folk from the Second Age in Sun County. I can see them being somewhat taken by Monrogh and being prepared to somewhat change the name of Tharkantus to Yelmalio, as they maintain close ties with Sun Country in Sartar. Then there are the Khim followers of the Ostrich Riders, whose avialrty (bird cavalry, did I spell that correctly?), dates back Before Time to Rinliddi. They aren't going to become hoplites, and are probably the most unusual "yelmalios" in Glorantha. There was literally no Elmal cult in Balazar. The Votanki settled Balazar via Ithmer and Balazar was a Little Sun hoplite who came to rule the area early. I strongly doubt this. Ralians are much closer to Darkness cults thanks to Arkat and the Malkioni. If anything they will have an Ascended Master who is the Son of Ehilm so "Hilmlet, Prince of Ralios"😂(His mom Dendara/Ernalda even shacked up with his dad's (Yelm) murderer (Orlanth) and became the usurper). There is very little contact between Ralios and Dragon Pass, and I have never read much to suggest that Monrogh went to Ralios or even down the Manirian coast. I think that apart from Southern Sartar, that Monrogh had precious little effect on the world. I think that the several rider cultures (Ostrich, Pentans, Praxians) who follow the Little Sun will have precious little to do with the hoplite culture promoted by Monrogh. The argument I am putting is that Monrogh's Vision is very limited in its effect on the world, and most people don't recognize Yelmalio by that name, and even if the deity is nominally the same, they mainly won't change their tradition to accommodate Monrogh's godlearner ideas, even if they make some sense. Frankly I like the idea that Elmal never went to the Hill of Gold, and never lost his fire powers. He may not have Sunspear, but he has Fireblade and Firearrow, and that is more than enough to justify Elmal's existence imo.

I have a lot of problems with this interpretation. (a) Orlanth faces Yelmalio at the Hill of Gold, not Elmal. Orlanth is a god and could tell the difference between Yelmalio and Elmal. (b) Elmal is a Thunder Brother. This makes Elmal actually a subcult of Orlanth. (c) What happened with Monrogh was the history of Southern Sartar. This doesn't translate to every other worshipper of "the masks of Yelmalio" suddenly calling their deity Yelmalio and adopting a homogenized hoplite culture which ignores their clan's cults and traditions. A localized war in southern Sartar doesn't mean everyone suddenly accepts the same truth. (d) to highlight (c) consider the Ostrich Riders. Their "Yelmalio" who we might call Khim, is inherited from the Rinliddi Bird Rider culture from Before Time. Ostrich riders gain nothing by homogenizing into a Yelmalio hoplite culture, in fact they lose out in every conceivable way. I mean Ostrich Riders even lose out on Kuschile Horse Archery, because they don't ride horses. (e) Now, if the Ostrich riders opt out of the new write-up, then why won't the Elmali of Far Point? There is no discussion of the Elmali civil war spreading into the North, and I distinctly remember reading that Harvar Ironfist was very determined to wipe out the Elmali by conversion or execution and remake Far Point as a Yelmalio society. This happens after 1612 afaik. Personally this seems a lot more interesting as a second front religious war prior to the Hero Wars, and is an excellent basis for a series of scenarios for MGF.

It wasn't just Orlanth who died at Whitewall, but Ernalda as well. The fall of Whitewall represented a huge catastrophe for the Orlanthi. Rune Magic became unavailable for those two gods. Other deities in the pantheon were unaffected, and a great many heroes started going on major hero quests to deal with the problem. Two years later the problem was fixed. In the interim, there was famine in Orlanthi lands, and an abnormally harsh winter, as Valind gained the supreme air rune and used it to overwhelm the Kalikos Icebreaker cult, leading to hard times and a vicious 2 year winter across the Lunar Empire too. Of course the Lunars still had other magic to draw upon to improve their situation as their main gods weren't dead. Of course Gods are immortal within Time, and so things restored themselves somehow. It is likely a bit like Earth in 536AD (the worst year in recorded history).