Ian Cooper

Orlanthi society won't recognize individual guilt. The clan is the operative social unit. So you would claim compensation from a clan. The clan might put pressure on the offenders bloodline as an economic unit to bear the brunt of the cost, but this is mostly custom over law. A hired hand working for the clan is still part of the clan, actual blood kinship would be unimportant here. Heortling law is mostly about the clan as a 'corporation', so the important aspect is compensation to the corporation for the loss of its workers, not attributing guilt. So the Orleving would seek compensation from the Varmandi chieftain, the clan's CEO. Now the chieftain might decide you were bad contractors, and try to get you to cough up for the amount, but that would be for the Varmandi to sort out, not the Orlevings.

Yeah, once we have the big release out, we should be able to use the new process to deliver updates faster.

Nicely done. I like the three sides of the same myth approach, especially including Esrola's side

I experimented with presenting different systems, and play-tested some, but this one proved the most satisfactory. There is nothing to stop anyone publishing their own preferred systems, but after much toying around, this seemed to work best. Yes, some folks don't like two aspects: hero points going to good play tends to reinforce dominant players over quiet ones, and the trade between hero points and experience points annoys others. But all other systems had their own set of weaknesses, and many seemed to drift away from the goals of HeroQuest as a game i.e. lots of bookkeeping required, or not flexible enough to support abilities that didn't come up in play so that they fell behind etc.

Our current SRD model for hp and experience has changed. A summary would be: GM awards players up to 5HP in a session for overcoming obstacles, good role-playing etc. They can spend them, or turn them into XP if unspent at the end of the game. Once you get 10HP, you can buy a package of increases. It's modeled on the system in Prince Valiant (with the added HP twist).

We have an "it's ready when it is ready" policy, but we are pursuing it

Our efforts are now focused on the SRD and new Core Rules and then we will review.

Hmmm, I created that a while back, I'll see if I can figure out why it is so hard to find

We are in layout, once we are happy with the way that final document looks, we will publish the SRD.

Sure, but the narration may reflect that neither of you acquitted yourself in glory. If this was a fight, it would be a messy, sloppy, affair, slipping and sliding in the mud, and the player might feel their victory was as much down to luck as skill.

One clarification that is likely in the SRD is that you only care about the degree of victory or defeat from the point of view of the PC. If there are two PCs, it is symmetrical, but otherwise you only care what happened to the PC's attempt to win the prize, everything else is for the GM to narrate. So PC gets a minor victory. Cool. it is up to the GM to narrate the condition of the resistance, taking the agreed 'prize' as an indicator of what the player gained. A minor victory is 'gains the prize' don't forget.

I wouldn't necessarily believe that list. it is a fan source and makes the dangerous assumption that Kallyr's household must have come from Kheldon clans, and so are so the clans they are listed as belonging to must be Kheldon clans. I suspect that nobles often draw followers from far-and-wide, sometimes preferring the counsel and protection of those whose loyalty is not compromised by kinship. The Jerending clan could be pretty much anywhere you want to place it, in the absence of other information.

I agree. All reconstruction is difficult, because we are looking at fragments that 'leak' the older concepts. And I have not really sought to try and tackle Entekosiad - although I believe that there is probably a whole that we can pull from including that, I have just not really tried to include that yet. I was more interested in this question of the Many Suns and who is Yelm in this thread.

Good thought, and too obvious for us all to see.

Yes, but also no. Some of my thinking has developed with the thread. Lets try this. There is a one Fire rune: Vezkarvez The first 'god' to devolve from that rune was: Ezelveztay. It devolves by association with other runes into the Keskeskenni One amongst the Keskeskenni is considered the most fitting and given the title Emperor, or Yelm, or Lightfore. IMO Yelm and Lightfore are both titles that change hands, and can be translatd as Emperor. There are three brothers Lodril, Arraz, and Dayzatar who are the earliest 'worshiped' generation of sky gods Arraz is the first Yelm/Emperor/Lightfore. He is the celestial Emperor. Yelm/Arraz and Dendara have a child: Murharzam. He is the earthly Emperor. He is one of their eight children, which has always implied to me eight ruling deity suns of the cities of DH that are acknowledged (though 10 ought to be the number) I suspect this may be a relationship similar to the Red Goddess/Red Emperor. The Blue Dragon Oslir forces Yelm/Arraz from the sky; Murharzam defeats the serpent to become Lightfore/Yelm. Arraz is I think, now, the servant or something lesser not the Yelm/Lightfore any more. Orlanth kills Yelm/Murharzam. Other suns hold for the role for a while Yelm/Antirius (who dies), then Yelm/Polaris and Yelm/Ourania On earth there is a a succession of Emperors At the dawn Yelm/Antirius returns, but is not the sun disk, just a planet (Lightfore). At the dawn the sun disk is not Arraz either, who is now a star. The sun disk is something new, associated with Time. Under the Bright Empire the sun disk begins to receive worship, many myths of holders of the title of Yelm or Emperor are transferred to the sun. The sun accumulates all these individual Lightfore/Yelm/Emperor myths i.e. parts of Arraz, Antirius, Murharzam even perhaps Polaris and Ourania, The entities that were formally a Yelm decline in importance in worship. Or something like that. It's possible that Yelmalio is just a Bright Empire composite of the sons of Yelm i.e. the bits that were left over once we had done this 🙂

Yes

Sorry, I have yet to play Six Ages as I don't have a platform it is available on, so I don't really know what it implies. So my question was genuine: what does Six Ages say? In GRoY and FS, the interesting questions around 'Yelm' are: is he is worshiped at the Dawn, GRoY and FS say no, not until the Bright Empire; is Yelm an entity with a mythic past, yes, but probably the 'Yelm' of the Bright Empire is a synthesis of the myths of Murharzam, Antirius, Kargzant and Elmal among others of the Many Suns; was there are an entity called Yelm that died, perhaps but it also possible that was just another name for Murharzam, the Emperor, who seems to be only one of the entities that form the 'cult of Yelm' that emerges with the Bright Empire. In a sense we have this postulation of One->Many->One, but it is not clear if the One of the Bright Empire is the One of God Time.

In what way is Six Ages lore at odds with it?

First, we don't have cavalry units for the Sun Dome Temples in the DP boardgame either. They are pikemen. Second, it's not about whether there are cavalry units, it is about the god's mythology having a strong association with the taming of horses. We have those myths for Elmal, not for Yelmalio. Six Ages tells the story of the Hyalorings and tends to imply that Elmal arrives with them among the Vingkotlings and marries in. As above, so below. But Elmal is a horsebreaker, Yelmalio is not. Runegate and Toena Fort have long been associated with horse markets for the Orlanthi, particularly because of the strength of the cult of Elmal at Runegate and Toena Fort.

True, but by the Sourcebook we have already begun to interpret Yelmalio as Lightfore. I'm trying to look prior to that to see if it holds water with what we had in GRoY and KoS. For my part if we see Lightfore in the God's War as a title, it really belongs to the ruling 'sun' in DH. But at the Compromise it gets fixed on a planet which I believe is best described as 'horse and rider'. It's Antirius atop Kargzant or Elmal atop Redaylda. My problem with Yelmalio is he doesn't really have that myth i.e. he does not have the association with horses that seems fairly essential to Lightfore now, as a key idea is that Lightfore tames Kargzant with the bit and bridle.

OK, some more thoughts from digging at The God's Wall, on the Lightfore question, with Elmal and Yelmalio thrown in. It's the only God's War document, from the ascension of Murharzam. It's important to note when it was made as I think this denotes the most significant figure. So I think we need to see the most important figure there as Murhazam (as there is no Yelm :-)) (1) Solar Court 1 is Murhazam the Emperor. He sits on the Throne (Burbustus) which rests atop the Footstool. In front of him stand his four sons who are in charge of the directions. (2) Anything with a planet symbol is one of the Many Suns. They may well be sun gods for individual cities along the Oslir. The Emperor is simply Raibanth's son. (3l The largest sun symbol is over the Emperor, because Raibanth rules the other cities. (4) Arguably the sun gods could be said to 'bear' their sun over be their sun. This is important because at the dawn various gods bear the sun disk. (5) Where is Antirius? He is at I-1, he and Murharzam are swapped by Plentonius in error, because Murharzam is the divine Emperor at the time the wall is carved. Antirius doesn't 'rule' until later. (6) Who is Lightfore? He was the Emperor, but only because he is the first light! The story of the Emperor is the movement of Lightfore in the heavens. The symbol above the Emperor on the God's Wall is Lightfore. The identity of Lightfore in the sky changes, as the God's War develops, and suns fall, new suns become the ‘first sun’ and Lightfore. Murharzam is Lightfore first, Antirius is Lightfore at the Dawn. (7) What is the cult of Lightfore now? The Great Compromise fixed roles. The star called Lightfore is such because is Antirius, who was Lightfore at the Dawn. He rides Kargzant, so Kargzant is Lightfore too, and he bears the sun, which can be seen on the Sunpath in the day. No one worships the sun at the Dawn because there is no Yelm before the Bright Empire. It is just the sun disk. (8) Where is Elmal? He is not on the God's Wall as he shines from atop Keep Fin, not a DH city. He is one of the Many Suns, but no one in Peloria worships him, not, unlike Orlanth does he come into DH as an aggressor, and can be identified as Rebellus Terminus. Is he Antirius? It is possible, but mythically Antirius is present in DH, so it is also possible to see them as different suns with Elmal not mentioned. Elmal shines from atop Kero Fin. At the Dawn he is the sun disk's bearer (the torchbearer), not the sun. (9) Is Elmal/Redayla also the planet Lightfore? Lightfore gets associated with Antirius, as the premier sun god at the dawn, other than the sun disk. Kargzant is Antirius’s steed, so they are one planet in the sky. This seems to be part of the Great Compromise. So do all the 'sun bearers' become associated with the horse and rider planet Antirius/Kargzant called Lightfore. Is Elmal/Redayla also Lightfore? Maybe. The other explanation is the Elmal is visible as the sun - he bears it, but is not it, but cannot be seen carrying it. This seems possible as the Orlanthi claim him as the sun, and not the Great Darkness Lightfore, who shines from Kero Fin, not Raibanth. I would guess that the synthesis with Antirius/Kargzant comes as part of the Bright Empire, where Murharzam and Antirius/Kargant become merged, alongside Elmal, into Yelm. Yelm is the Murharzam sun, and Lightfore the Antirius/Kargzant planet on the sun path. A kind of correlation by the Bright Empire might then make Anitirus/Kargzant = Elmal/Redaylda = Lightfore. It isn’t necessarily that Elmal is that planet on the sunpath, but the Bright Empire tries to associate him with it. (10) Where is Yelmalio? He is also Not here. He is created by the Bright Empire and is not a Dara Happan god. He is not one of the Godtime Many Suns. Is he a Bright Empire version of Antirius? It's possible that when the Bright Empire creates him, they shift some of the beliefs of Antirius/Kargazant to Yelmalio, because Antirius does not seem to be directly worshipped, but only as part of the Yelm cult. In that sense Yelmalio could be associated with Elmal, to the extent that Elmal gets associated with Antirius. (11) But that seems to overload the whole Antirius/Kargzant = Elmal/Redaylda piece. Alternatively Yelmalio might also be a mask of Dayzatar, the sky dome, who sets out to find the missing Emperor (Lightfore). After all, he is the god of bright sky without Yelm in it i.e. Dayzatar. Dayzatar also holds the Truth rune. He also seems a little bit like Polaris, the marshal of heaven, and the defender of the Sky Dome when Dayzatar left. After all, the martial sun domers move to order, just like the troops of Polaris. As an Bright Empire creation he might synthesise those. In that case Halamalo the elven sun god, could be Dayzatar or Polaris. He could be mystical view of Dayzatar/Polaris once, but shorn of Nysalorian trappings after the First Age. (10) Who is Yelm? He is a synthesized god, created by the Bright Empire. He is worship of the sun disk, not it's bearer, which only appeared in its current form in time. Much of his mythology is of Lightfore, the leading sun of any given time, so the Emperor but other parts are Kargzant, the nomad conquerors of DH, Antirius the foremost sun defending Dara Happa after the Emperor dies, and other parts come from Elmal the barbarian sun god.

Peter has what I intended, but YGMV.

I think snark is a bit harsh. As far back as Cults of Prax (CoP), Yelmalio was: * The god of the sun dome - the glowing dome that provides light when neither sun nor night are in the sky. A link between his identity as the 'Son of the Sun' and the Many suns that appear after Yelm/the Emperor disintegrates is possible, and that might hook him into the Kargzant and Lightfore, but his identity as the Sun Dome not one of the Many Suns makes that hard. In addition, the merger of Kargzant and Lightfore appears to be the story of the taming of the horse in which rider and steed become one, and the identity of the SDTs as pikemen doesn't really fit that. * Of course, Yelmalio is not really a Dara Happan cult, a Bright Empire creation, so his analogy need not be exact. But he seems to bear more analogy to Dayzatar, the sun dome than to the sun. It is only really with the revelation of Many Suns by Monrogh that we seem to get the suggestion that he is one of the Many suns and could thus **swap** in for worship of the sun, where he seems to become the 'winter sun' due to his lack of heat. We do know from CoP that only the 'hill barbarians' think of him as winter sun over sky dome. So his identification seems very local * A minor deity, confined to his monastic temples, who spread in the second age to Prax as mercenaries and was invited by the House of Sartar into Dragon Pass in the Third Age. His sudden transformation into a little sun and not the god of the sun dome, is problematic because it does not fit the mythology we have for him already. I don't think most of this would be such a burning issue, apart from the decision to see Elmal as a sub-cult of Yelmalio, and thus downgrade Elmal to an old name or historical footnote of that cult. That is the core of what we are struggling with. I would prefer that Elmal and Yelmalio remained separate cults and if the desire was to downplay Elmal, we suggest that Rurik Runespear, under the support of Argrath, is championing the Yelmalio cult outside of the Sun Dome Temples, and that the cult of Elmal is going into decline as people converted to the ascendant cult of Yelmalio. That leaves existing material intact, and allows for those who want to 'rescue' Elmal to fight back against Rurik. That change would probably make the issue of whether Yelmalio is one of the Many suns less emotive.

It depends on the version. In HW/HQ feats are pretty much rune spells, with more flexible usage if they have slightly ambiguous names. In HQG, the rune spell equivalent is just use of a divine rune affinity (and in a sense by RQG not forcing you to pre-decide your rune spells the two have become closer). in HQG feats are heroforming, and intended to mirror the kind of magic seen in the extract from Harmast Saga in Gloranthan Visions called : Morden defends the Camp. You become the hero and gain access to a whole range of abilities whilst heroformed (until the terminal conditions are met or you are identity challenged). I guess in RQG terms it would be like being able to access a pool of rune spells by becoming a hero, and being able to spend points on any rune spells in that pool whilst the effect lasted. But HQG is trying to mirror Greg's writing more than RQG.

I think there is something in that, and its compatible with the version in S:KoH in many ways