Ian Cooper

There is material. We are not clear yet how to bring out.

Now, I don't want to restart the 'typos' flame wars with respect to HeroQuest, but as we prepare the SRD it would be useful to find out which sections of the HeroQuest rules you find particularly badly explained and have struggled with. The SRD is our opportunity to inject some clarity into those rules, and try to resolve ambiguities. What I would ask in this thread is you list examples of text that you find unclear and an obstacle to understanding or play. I want to rule that this is brainstorming exercise. There will be no evaluation here. If someone says 'I find rule X confusing', they do. This thread is not for debating that or providing an explanation to them. Please start a separate thread for that if you must. Evaluation, the step that comes after brainstorming, is what Chaosium will do. We can't promise that we will get to everything, but let's see what we can do. So, don't evaluate here. Once the SRD comes out we will make it possible to submit changes for clarity or confusion etc. But let's get the worse of the issues nailed, if we can.

That would be a matter for the licensee.

It's not very clear is it. I believe the situation is this. To lose, you must have had 5RPs scored against you. If you are on the losing side, you will have an extra RP lodged against you. So for any defeated adversity the lowest number of RP scored against them is 6. If 6 RPs are scored against you, then you are Impaired, which means a Minor Victory to your opponent. So the math does seem to make that statement true. Overall I think this is something we need to simplify with the SRD, so as to make it easier to figure out the consequences of defeat and benefits of victory for each side. I don't actually like the separation that exists today between states of adversity and consequences of defeat. They should be the same thing. So that means that really we could just record the consequence of defeat that you experience and pick the second worse. Then we can just describe the consequence of defeat as a state of adversity. But, as written, it is disjointed.

Of course Greg would not be the first author to write something in a 'new' universe only to 'discover' that it related to one that they had already written, albeit in allusions or obscure references, that then left fans of 'canon' wondering how to reconcile the differences into a whole. It is interesting to see Glorantha as separate 'worlds' that combined, but I am a big fan of the Guides rationalization of the West into something that fits more evenly with the better understood WBRM universe. It is also interesting to note that the WBRM Glorantha is post Greg's discovery of fantasy, and co-evolving with gaming, not just a place for invented mythology.

I suspect you are the man to confirm this. My recollection is that the Lunar Empire, the Orlanthi and Dragon Pass pretty much don't exist prior to WBRM and were 'created' as background for that game. Is that your understanding, that although it might have drawn on some elements of his earlier writing, the genesis of the material was pretty much the background for that game?

We mention it in the Eleven Lights too 🙂

We are working through the draft. We want to get a first version that everyone finds the clearest presentation of the system yet. Hopefully you will bear with us a little while longer while we do that. Work is continuing on Ron Edward's Cosmic Zap. He has playtest videos and notes over at his Actual Play site. You can check it out there. We have learned a lot from that and we are ready to start turning those ideas into something more concrete. We are negotiating about a couple more genre packs, and also starting to think about a new core book with some sample genre packs in it. Obviously we need to get the presentation of the rules cleared up first. Progress is ongoing. We want to get it right though.

Whilst it would be an interesting exercise in archeology, it would be hard to accomplish, because only those who have access to Greg's unpublished materials (Chaosium) could really track everything, and then I think dates etc. are unclear from those. Much of it is hand-written, partial note form etc. Before anyone asks about access to that material, it is chaotic, and Moon Design Publications put much of it into the Guide. Some notes influence products. For example some material made it into The Coming Storm based on Greg's campaign notes about the organization of Orlanthi households, steads etc. I am sure some other pieces will leak into future items. It might be useful to trace idea paths. For example, the Orlanthi in early RQ are 'barbarians' and seem to be mostly generic fantasy 'barbarians', think Conan, but with a nod to the Greek notion of the barbarian Celts of Europe. Cults of Prax has them at one remove, but the mythology of Orlanth and the Lightbringers gain seems European Iron Age influenced. Later in RQ3 the Orlanthi look a little more like the Germanic tribes of Dark Ages Europe, and notes from Greg's house campaign have clear Anglo-Saxon influences on the Orlanthi social structure. Beowulf seems to be the heroic myth. By the time of Hero Wars (Thunder Rebels) they roll back, and the presentation there includes a lot of Urnfield culture elements, which bleed into Halstatt and Le Tene and the Celts. The Tain becomes just as influential as a heroic myth for them. So we return to early Iron Age and Bronze Age. HeroQuest Glorantha continued that move of the Orlanthi influences away from the Atlantic coast towards Central Europe and Greece, and the Illiad rears its head as an influence. (Mainly due to a perception that distance in Glorantha placed them quite close to the Neo-Babylonian influenced Dara Happan and Persian influenced Carmanian cultures). Personally, I think a blend of Late Bronze Age and Early Iron Age cultures from across Europe works well, as relying too heavily on any single cultural influence tends to make them analogues. Some of the history here relates to who the creative leads were at any given time. Greg has long had an interest in the British Dark Ages, due to his interest in Arthur, so it was natural that he might reach for that early on. Later authors tried to model the principle that Glorantha was Bronze Age more explicitly. BTW, talking of Argrath/Arkat. I guess you pick up the hint that Argrath=Arkat=Arthur. Arthur himself is an Argrath I think, a different one to Glorantha's, but I think in the story of Argrath, Greg was playing with similar tropes and ideas.

I think "it's complicated" and interestingly I think the Dara Happans have the same issue with Antirius. Is he Lightfore still, or part of the Sun now? Orlanthi myth has him as taking the Torch into the Sky, when Orlanth returns at the Dawn. So I don't think he is the Sun, but he is the torchbearer for the Sun. Which fits with Lightfore. But I think that Orlanthi don't pray to the torch, they pray to the torchbearer. So a prayer to the Sun goes to Elmal, even though Elmal is not the Sun.

My assumption, without any evidence, is that Lightfore, Shargash etc. were brighter in the Storm Age so that even after the death of Yelm there was something approaching day, but dimmed during the Darkness, going from Twilight to a bright moonlit night all the way to a starlit night in the end. We know the myths of Elmal and Yelmalio have them continually battered, which may be a mythical explanation for them losing brightness. Now, I suspect Lightfore is a bright star that does provide more illumination than most terrestrial planets, but not as much as our moon. Looking at this table I would assume that it is closer to a quarter moon than Venus. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daylight#Intensity_in_different_conditions

This is the position that makes most sense to me.

So when Orlanth 'kills' the Sun he splits it into two parts. 'Bijif' which descends into the Underworld and 'Antirius' which does not. We call the 'little sun' Anitirius, Lightfore (and Elmal, Yelmalio and Kargzant). At the Dawn, Orlanth resurrects Bijif who becomes the sun. But Lightfore also still exists. This duality is doubtless due to the Great Compromise. Elmal is Antirius, the part of the Sun broken off when Orlanth killed Bijif. Mythically, Orlanth kills the unjust part and reveals the loyal thane. That whole wrestling at the crossing is probably the myth explaining that. So Elmal, Yelmalio, Antirius are all part of the Golden Age Sun, but now a separate light in the sky I tend to agree that Yelmalio is the 'foreigner' cult.

Aren't all priests lawyers 😉

IMO this seems to be the flow The Emperor == Orlanth kills the Emperor The Emperor splits => Bijif - Anitirus Bijif, Lord of the Underworld Antirius, Little Sun, Light in the Darkness == Orlanth resurrects Bijif Bijif returns as Yelm Anitirus wanders the night sky as Lightfore ----------------------------------------- I only use Yelm to denote the Sun post the Dawn to simplify. I'm not implying what the Sun was called in the Golden Age. Antirius == Kargzant, Yelmalio, Elmal So Kargzant, Yelmalio and Elmal are the part of the Sun that remains in the Sky after Orlanth kills Yelm. But they are not the Sun after the Dawn, that is Yelm. So the statement Elmal is the Sun and Elmal is not Yelm is true, if confusing. Because really Elmal is the part of the Sun that remained after Orlanth killed the Emperor, but not the Sun that rose at the Dawn. So it is easier to say Elmal is Lightfore.

I think that is a mistake, because all the myths of Elmal we have joining the Storm Tribe suggest he was an exile from the Emperor's lands and just a thane. I think that he was a sun, but a sun in the Darkness, not a sun after the Dawn. Indeed, Orlanth returns from the Underworld with a torch, which is implicitly the sun, that Elmal bears aloft. So Elmal is not the sun at the Dawn. Given hints like the myth of Elmal Guards the Stead, he seems to be another name for Lightfore the planet that is also associated with Antirius, Yelmalio, and probably Kargzant the part of Yelm that did not enter the underworld (that part that did is Bijif). So that is why a GL can say Antirius, Yelmalio, Kargzant and Elmal are the same god, because they are Lightfore. So there is an ur-god somewhere here that is a deity of the planet Lightfore which appears after Orlanth kills Yelm, and which does not die in the Great Darkness. Of course, when Yelm returns you could argue that all the gods that are Lightfore become part of Yelm again i.e. Bijif is re-united with Antirius. Given there are two entities in the sky I think that is complicated, which may imply that the sun at the Dawn is not the same Sun that Orlanth killed. You could also argue that all these gods are the Sun, because they were part of the Sun before Orlanth killed the Sun. So Elmal is a part of the Sun, as is Yelmalio. Interestingly, Orlanth created them by killing Yelm. But whilst Elmal may have been Yelm (as was Antirius and Yelmalio) he doesn't seem to have been the Sun since Orlanth killed Yelm. Perhaps what is more in dispute is the extent to which Yelmalio has replaced Elmal and the relations between the two cults. Sartar Kingdom of Heroes makes it pretty clear that the Elmal cult is hostile to the Yelmalio cult: "The Sun priests of Elmal have a terrible rivalry with the cult of Yelmalio that has seized many of Elmal’s holy places.", and "Elmal’s priests teach that internal dissent is the work of the Teller of Lies, criticizing the Yelmalio cult as an example of just such a deception". So I think the two cults do not have friendly relations. As to extent, well there are 1K Elmali and 3K Yelmalio worshipers in Sartar, but with many of the latter at the Sun Dome Temple, neither are dominant in the clans, with the Elmali strongest in two clans (Toena and Enhyli) and probably scattered bloodlines in half-a-dozen others like the Dolutha. But as to elsewhere? I suspect Yelmalio among Pelorian Orlanthi, Elmal among Manirian Orlanthi and maybe an entirely different name for the god in Ralios or Umathela .

Indeed 🙂

Like a lot of things in life, I expect some people walk the line and risk punishment from the gods. I would assume under Orlanthi law that 'theft' means stealing from kin i.e. members of your clan and probably also extends to members of the same temple, guild etc. But once you get outside that group, things will get more blurry. If you are under an oath of hospitality then taking the guest or hosts things would be 'theft' as well. If you are in a city, and under the city peace that will imply theft too. But the clan you are raiding over the hill? The foreign Etyries merchant? Well the law doesn't apply to them, does it...

Discussion with Greg implied that he didn't like the clean separation of settlements that we ended up with post RQ3 and TR. The 'tula' was much more the sacred parts, not the whole clan lands, and the villages definitely more mixed along the borders. But I do agree it is a shift in how many saw this. However, I think that in a clan you will have strong central places like Red Cow Fort, that are your 'sanctuary' as well as mixed villages on the borders with other clans, especially if they are from the same tribe or friendly. And overall, it's a lot more fun for stories if the clan boundaries are less 'hygienic'.

Yeah, KODP is better on this, I think

Overall 'increasing resistance' is trying to solve the problem that when you set resistances based on story rhythm over measuring the world you still want a difficult challenge to be difficult as the PC advances. If we are trying to emulate the dramatic rhythm of stories, I believe that the classic story which includes advancement is farmboy to hero i.e. the hero grows more competent during the movie. So increasing resistance doesn't really make sense, during the context of the story. I genuinely can take the experience from 'the road of struggles' to face down the 'big bad' at the end, when it would have been too great a challenge at the beginning. Luke the farmboy learns the way of the Jedi and uses the force to guide his torpedoes and destroy the Death Star. Hence why I think the base resistance should increase at the beginning of a new 'season' not during. Does the hero become more competent across the board? Do we also increase No-Relevant-Ability? Do we also increase the starting rating for new abilities up from 13? Do they both increment by the season increase? I'd be inclined to say no. After all, as the hero progresses we would expect them to be using their signature abilities, not No-Relevant-Ability and if they were forced onto that backfoot, for the difference to be all the more compelling. I try and avoid putting the PCs in a no-relevant-ability situation anyway, because that makes them zeroes over heroes, unless acquiring that ability is the story itself. I still believe in catch ups even in a story driven improvement approach. But its not a compelling answer and needs some more thought.

Yeah, I think we definitely limited ourselves with those approaches back in the day. Some things I worked on in TCS to try and 'fix' some issues. Wild areas. You need wild areas between clans that hunters can enter or cattle raiders that are "no-man's land" to allow for interesting encounters Common villages. You need villages that are mixed along borders, particularly natural ones (Apple Lane is the prime example) so that people from the clan can mix with people from other clans for romance, feuds, etc. In TCS we postulate that the settlements along the borders, which are also the sources of water etc. often have a 'twin' from the neighboring clan 'across the bridge' or even have flowed into one another. Tribal and clan lands may not all be contiguous. We are probably too late in Sartar for this, but we should think about varying this up elsewhere. Again, it gives a lot more opportunity fr conflict.

I suspect that if your clan cannot provide the 'benefits of membership' to you whilst you are in the city, you quickly join a guild, brotherhood etc. to provide the same benefits, if you can. It's a very harsh world to be alone in and your distant kin in the clan can only do so much.

The marriage laws come from Early Irish Law codes, and you can find as much in the Orlanthi as described in the 'Report on the Orlanthi' in King of Sartar or Sartar, Kingdom of Heroes that comes from the Early Irish as the Germans. Of course the importance of cattle, and cattle raiding comes from the same place. Back in the day the book 'Cattle Lords and Clansmen' was something a lot of those of exploring the Orlanthi. We played with the ideas of cattle loans for example, based on our reading of this text (I think Enclosure?). Other ideas clearly come from Germanic tribes, partially as described by Tacitus, and partially ideas from the Vikings such as blood feuds, odal property etc. (though odal has far more in common with the idea of the Irish clan as an economic unit). Or to put it another way, the Orlanthi are a composite of what we know about the Germanic and Celtic peoples of Europe. And if you think about Greg's other passion, Arthur, and his Dark Age and Celtic associations, it is easy to see what he was drawing on. Nowadays we also tend to draw on things like Urnfield culture (one of the strongest influences in Thunder Rebels is Urnfield culture and it is far more ancient world than the RQ presentations were). How does that help us? I assume that a bloodline is a group that is similar to one of the 'fine' groups here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Irish_law#Kinship In essence it is an economic unit (hence responsibility for fines etc) within the clan based on kinship. The closest thing in Early Irish Law would be a derbfine, or common descent from a Great Great Grandfather. How big would that be? Well it depends on how many sons survive each generation etc. but if you had three sons in each generation, assume that the fathers are all married and have five children each (sex does not matter as they are children) you get 70 odd individuals of whom about half are adults, rising to bigger numbers if you have four or five sons. Remember larger families would be the norm. My personal experience of African clan structures through my partner (where descent is through the great grandfather) would be that in addition to blood kin there are a number of 'adopted' kin whose on bloodline fell on hard times etc, whose relationship would be slightly more distant, but get adopted by the more successful branch. Overall I think that creates quite a range for bloodline size, from as low as 20 or so and as high as a couple of hundred. I think that when a bloodline descends to the size of one household though it would tend to combine with other households for greater influence, so I suspect a lot more would be about 60-70 than 20. I suspect that once you pass the Dunbar number (150) the bloodline becomes unwieldy and begins to risk breaking up without a strong leader. Now, The Coming Storm has 'historical ancestors' for many of its bloodlines, not the Great Grandfather. I also think that is common, because the bloodline identifies with the 'famous' ancestor in its male line, not just the Great Grandfather that they all have in common. It's "bigging up" your connections. Now a number of bloodlines might share a historic ancestor, but history or tradition probably lets one group assert that (the most powerful) forcing others to choose "lesser" ancestors to identify with. Of course any GGF dies, and his children in turn become a GGF. So any view of a clan, such as that in TCS is a snapshot in time of the bloodlines. So what happens, do they divide into new bloodlines? Perhaps. Or perhaps the most significant grandfather takes the mantle of being the common ancestor but his brother's branches remain part of the bloodline as adoptees. From talking to my wife's family it's clear that this is a decision for negotiation as much as law. In other words, we might all get together and decide that we are going to measure our bloodline from Koschei, but that we will also include the children of Koschei's brothers in our bloodline. This is a decision around economics, power, influence etc. as much as 'law'. The bloodline understands how it is formed, it doesn't need to conform to 'rules'. Now both bloodlines and clans are exogamous. I think that really means that folks from a bloodline would not take partners from another clan who shared the same paternal grandfather. Generally that is an issue when a female descendant of your GGF has children in that other clan, who are then excluded from marriage into your bloodline. That is one disadvantage of a larger bloodline, more partners are excluded. That may create pressure on large bloodlines to break up. What does this mean for a game? I think that worrying about too many bloodlines is hard work for the GM. I would have a few large bloodlines, more medium sized ones, and some small ones for flavor if you wanted. I think the 6 we have in TCS is on the limit of players and GM caring, though you could handwave a lot of 'small' branches that you don't need to identify the leadership, or name of, until you need them. Anything over 12 is a lot of work for you as a GM. Story-wise bloodlines let you have internal conflict based on folks trying to gain economic advantage through law and politics, within the clan. A bloodline also gives you the ability to present a smaller number of NPCs to a player (your bloodline patriach etc.) for them to care about within the clan initially. i'd always remember what Greg used to say: "what story do you want to tell" and allow the flexibility of the bloodline size to hep you set that up within your game.

And don't forget the Colymar have been involved in trying to take control in this area in the past as well. Sartar picked locations for his cities that were at the heart of historical conflicts between the tribes. This area has been fought over for some time, and tribes as well as clans have come and gone. One thing Jeff and I wanted to show in the The Coming Storm is that the history of Dragon Pass is filled with the rise and fall of tribes and clans. It is much less constant that a map of the 'tribes of Sartar' today might suggest. As an aside, whilst the clan may say 'this is our mythic history' in most cases it is just an "agreed mythic history" and is often fictive. As a parallel, see the earthly genealogies of kings that proved descent from Odin or Jesus. The Red Cow actually take a lot of their mythic history from their wyter, not their own ancestors, for example.