Ian Cooper

BTW, in a Fonrit game I ran at a con, then I made Darleester's Noose a sorcery grimoire (Harmony rune) which included a spell Compulsion, that allowed the sorcerer to make a slave collar. Someone wearing the collar had to obey the sorcerer, or whoever the sorcerer had cast the spell on behalf of, or the collar would tighten and strangle the slave. Not all slaves were worth the expense of a sorcerer binding them, far simpler methods could keep a common field slave in control, just those whose betrayal would be dangerous. The Grimoire also contained a classic Harmonize spell. Overall, I treated the Fonritians as similar to the Soninke people in social structure: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soninke_people#Social_stratification

OK, that is useful. The intent was to just list them as rules variants by system via an SRD. I guess I just need to figure out if we are covered for that.

I have thoughts. But that feels like it might end an interesting conversation where you come up with better thoughts too early. But I didn't want you to think I was rude by ignoring the discussion. Glorantha has a long tradition of co-creation, it's out in the wild, it's as much yours as ours, so I want to sit back with a cup of tea and a biscuit for now. Have at it.

Out of interest The Coming Storm is set at 1618 and the associated campaign, the Eleven Lights runs between 1618-1625. It was actually the product that followed the Guide (along with the King of Sartar reprint). You can use it to play from just before the point of the Guide to the point at which RQG is set. So there is product that straddles this 'gap'.

Thank you. You can find the age distribution spreadsheet in the files section there: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/stormsteads/files

The Heortling Stead Project produced a spreadsheet to help with this. I have a copy but I can't find a web source for it anymore (I think the yahoo group for it is gone) and I don't want to share as it's not mine. I am not sure if anyone remembers who put it together (Nick Brooke?) but if you can find them they might be willing to upload here.

I'd agree with this. The majority of people don't know killing or escape magic. And their magic could be useful day-to-day. A slave is a valuable asset after all, and the more efficiently they can work the better. Those who do pose a threat were the reason the Empire created slave bracelets in the first place. Of course, only free men can worship Orlanth, so slaves get cut-off from their god, and will lose magic once it is cast. Ernaldans don't have this issue, and we note in The Coming Storm that: "The cult of Ernalda the Slave is popular amongst the thralls. This is Ernalda in her aspect as a prisoner of the Emperor’s Court, before Orlanth freed her. She teaches endurance and forbearance to her faithful." I am sure different cults handle this issue according to their godtime mythology. Slaves tend to be kept in line with fear. Fear of the consequences of rebellion, fear of the consequences of escape. Of course, rebellions still happen, and then the punishment tends to be harsh. Witness Jar-Eel putting down Beat-Pot's rebellion. Even if you have a little bit of killing magic, you are naked, unarmed, and unarmoured.

The difficulty Glorantha has is that where it stems from is not where it is now most used. Early on, in the late 60s and early 70s, Greg wrote a lot of Glorantha to invent mythology, once he had run out of source material to read. Those myths were as problematic as the source material he was trying to emulate, because he was trying to emulate it. In the 80s Glorantha progressed via gaming, but in late 90s, early 2000s Greg's exploration of mythology was divorced from gaming again, and focused anew on invented mythology, derived from real-word archtectypes in King of Sartar and later the unpublished works. Again the myths were as problematic as the sources he was trying to emulate. And that may be 'of necessity' when you want to explore myths. And so the question becomes, when you create a game, how do you deal with all that problematic material? I think that part of the answer is to avoid focusing on that. Yes, it's there, but no gaming material does not have to focus on it. Leave it in the books of myths etc. I don't think, that given Greg's creative goal of exploring mythology it needs to be excised from the canon, just because it is problematic. Some groups may want to explore it, as Ron Edwards group did with the myths around Thed; I think that those groups know who they are. Otherwise it is probably best just to treat it as 'in the shadows' for groups that would struggle with it. FWIW I think Orlanth is supposed to be a bit of an arsehole (much as Thor often is and Orlanthi mythology is very Germanic in tone). He is frequently immature and badly behaved. He does mature as he goes along, with marriage, with the birth of his son, with his repentance of regicide. Orlanth's actions bring the Darkness. His ring and companions teach him there is a better way. In the end he is forced to confront all those he has wronged. I don't think you are supposed to emulate Orlanth, but learn from his errors. But yes, there is bad Glorantha play, where someone says "I am going to behave like a dick, because Orlanth was". To be fair of course the same applies to being a Viking, playing in Westeros etc. Don't play with those people. By comparison, look at the struggles Gaiman had trying to work through Norse myth: https://www.bustle.com/p/how-neil-gaiman-managed-to-retell-the-stories-norse-mythology-without-all-the-misogyny-8429317

Yeah, let's not get into the deal of quoting folks earlier thoughts as though they were iron bands that bound them to that opinion forever. I may have a difference of opinion with @Jeff on this issue, but he is allowed to have new insights or opinions, without having his prior thoughts raised in a way that suggests he is being intellectually contradictory or dishonest. It's not a useful addition to debate. After all, if we want someone to change their mind, there is no point in suggesting they can't 🙂

Elmal Guards the Stead. Remember that Lightfore does not spend time in the Underworld but re-appears in the east after reaching the west. In effect this is Elmal resurrecting at the end of each fight as the sun rises, instead of dying. Lightfore does not die, because the planet never enters the Underworld, and the Great Compromise reflects this.

S:KoH has Rigsdal as a sub-cult of Elmal. in ST Rigsdal could be stand-aone, but it was hard to see how he would accumulate enough worshipers to be viable, or Elmal/Humakt. The Humakt association is also a little dubious. Putting Rigsdal under Elmal fits with the 'light in the Darkness' specialist. Also as Rigsdal is Pole Star but dancing to Orlanth's lilt and tune, there is correspondence with Elmal as the 'just' sun, loyal to Orlanth. So the Elmal cult becomes the 'loyal stars' for Orlanth. I am sure the Star Captains could be seen as belonging there as a result.

Exactly. It was too beautiful a correspondence not to pick up in the Eleven Lights. It's possible something similar happens at Toena, but I wasn't writing about that.

Here we go: "...the situation at Runegate during the Great Winter (see Sartar Companion page 55). There Selelmal the True performs a This World heroquest — Elmal Defends the Camp — and shines with a radiance that keeps the Great Winter away from Runegate. The cost is that many foes are drawn to Runegate as a result." The Eleven Lights, p112

Sure, but story-wise this works far better, an ascendant Yelmalio-cult led by Rurik, because New Pavis had a strong Yelmalio-Sartarite culture, pushing further on the Elmali. Even undermining the Lord of Runegate. This is the stuff of stories, because it has conflict at its heart.

He does, I believe we cover it in The Coming Storm (it might just have happened at my table, don't have the sources to hand). But as folks tend to turn to their darkness survival myths in the Darkness, and Elmal is the premier survivor, Runegate becomes a beacon during the Windstop

I always assumed that the dark thunder clouds were what was meant here, that Thunder itself is 'Crushing Noise'. But, I don't have any evidence for that, just assumption that I thought was shared.

Perhaps. I guess it remains difficult for us to speculate in a forum about insights that appear in unpublished sources and present information that contradict earlier sources. I guess that is the heart of much of this thread. But it does appear that the concept of Elmal and Yelmalio is not what it was in the HW or HQ line, KoDP or Six Ages, and is changing for RQG. Elmal was not a sub-cult of Yelmalio in that model, and the Elmal cult was older and hostile to Yelmalio, even in the Sartar Rising period. We will have to wait and see how it turns out for RQG to understand it. I think a number of us on this thread are simply saying that as part of that change we would loath to move away from the version of Elmal and Yelmalio we have built up over the last twenty years, and would prefer something that does not change that. A lot of powerful stories have been predicated on the religious strife between the two visions of the Little Sun. Making Elmal a minor sub-cult of Yelmalio removes that. The persistence of this thread does speak to some of the concern here though.

Ah I had forgotten that was in the loop somewhere. It does make sense that Tarkalor would have felt keen to honor his new allies in Boldhome. I'm not sure it changes the point that the main influence points of Yelmalio seem to be Vaantar, Alda-Chur and Pavis. So the Yelmalians seem to have clustered on the frontiers of Satar over being at its heart. I don't think any of that diminishes the playability of Yelmalio for PCs, particularly after the Dragonrise.

On something we have not seen then yet, I guess, as its not in the S:KoH.

Jonstown's cult breakdown suggests that it is dominated by Lightbringer worshipers, with only 50 members of other cults (SC, 9) Clearwine has Yinkin as well as Humakt but no Yelmalio or Elmal (SC, 31) but note that Runegate has the Sun Horse Elmal temple (SC 61) which supports the Colymar tribe (and no Yelmalio). Boldhome has a noted temple to Elmal (S:KoH, 245) but no noted temple to Yelmalio. By contrast there are 200 Sun Towners in New Pavis (P:GtA, 174) and they are a significant political force there. It's not that we 'know' there are none, but that whilst Pavis has a Sun Dome Temple, these Sartarite cities do not and there does not seem to be as significant a Yelmalian presence. In addition note that according to SC, 139 "The Yelmalio cult is a hostile enclave of Solar worship amongst the storm worshipping Orlanthi. The cult survives by the training and hiring of pike-armed soldiers as mercenaries – the famous Sun Dome Templars. They are found only in Sun County and in the city of Aldachur.The Sun Dome Temple in Sun County is a self sufficient community centered around the temple itself. Among the Aldachuri, the Yelmalio cultists have supplanted the Orlanth cult as the leaders of the community." In addition, we note of Vaantar that: "The lands of the Yelmalio cult - usually called Sun Dome County or Sun County - are now home to approximately 12,000 people. However, only about 2,000 are initiates of the Yelmalio cult; the rest are women, children and a large population of slaves called ergeshi - descendents of the Kitori captured and enslaved during the wars." Given there are about 3000 Yelmalio worshippers in Sartar, S:KoH p.133, that puts about 2K in Sun County and the other 1K mostly in Alda Chur and in the surrounding Vantaros tribe. So that would tend to cluster Yelmalio worshipers in and around Vaantar and Alda-Chur, and possibly surviving Elmal worshipers falling along Runegate->Dangerford->Toena There might be some Yelmalio worshippers in Boldhome, but they don't have a temple there, unlike Alda-Chur or Pavis.

Storm Tribe

HQG books will continue to honor the presentation of Elmal established in Storm Tribe and Sartar:Kingdom of Heroes. It is worth noting that the Yelmalio cult is more numerous in Sartar (3K to 1K) but more isolated (SDT). It is also worth noting that Pavis seems to have Yelmalio worshippers, whereas Jonstown and Boldhome do not. So I would suggest that the Yelmalio cult may have had more significance amongst those who went into exile with Dorasor.

Indeed. Some cults are awkward. Elmal for example, as the conflict between Heler and Elmal is central to the rivalry between the Dolutha and Red Cow. Lunar cults will be tricky in the 11L campaign, as the assumption is that PCs are at best neutral to the Empire at the outset. Of course, you can have a Lunar convert as a PC, but it will mean you stray further off the material presented.

Yes.

So attached is the artwork that graced the cover of Storm Tribe, Barbarian Adventures, and Imperial Lunar Handbook. It was not originally intended to be split across those books, but used as a wraparound cover for Sartar Rising. Now look behind the dragonewt, vingan, and bird rider. See that body? That is the stone dragon. See behind the vingan? Those are the Skull Ruins. Greg told me that in his game the 'ruins' were actually the eye sockets and the mouth of the skull, and that is in-house game had a lot of adventures there. I have not seen any scans of material describing what they found, but just in case that helps, this is how Greg used them. The artwork here, by Stefanio Gaudiano (who also works on The Walking Dead comic book) was commissioned by Greg, based on his campaign experiences. I discovered this when working on Dragon Pass, Land of Thunder with Greg, when he wrote up those sections based on his house campaign. Hope that helps.