Sir_Godspeed

Welcome!

I lived a year in Inner Troms, and am mostly familiar with the alpine landscape and the coastal areas around Tromsø (and some around Narvik). On the one hand I see what you mean, but on the other I'm of a split mind. First off, I disagree with the assumption that the settlements along the coast of the Winterwood and Courtwood were only temporary logging camps - I see no particular evidence of that, and even if they were, the question remains whether they would be stuck there during the Closing or whether they'd be able to boat home before they were cut off (Or, well, just die out). As an aside from this, do we know if the islands were inter-navigable during the Closing like the islands in the Choralintor Bay, Maniria or the Suam Chow? Do we know if the Ban had any additional effect for them? Now, onto the matter of trees during the Closing - the issue I see is sort of twofold, or maybe threefold. First off, the more people are stuck on the islands requiring the marginal wood for their everyday needs, the more is going to be cut down - so you might end up with an Easter Island situation. On the other hand, the more people are dying off from starvation or other causes during the Closing, the less need for wood there is, so more will regrow. The third follows from this in a sense - the question becomes how much merit you give to the great Forest "osmosis" over to the isles - if very strong, then fine, there will assumedly be something growing up regardless. But if not so strong, it will fall under the influences of human cutting, as well as goat-browsing (who are quite excellent at preventing regrowth in the RW). As mentioned before there is a dynamic to this influence, as goats get slaughtered for food by increasingly desperate Yggites, who are themselves dying off to the point where they are *supposedly* committing cannibalism (or "just" population-control infanticide), that pressure lessens. We also don't know how the Closing or Ban influences this magical forest "osmosis" in itself. The way I see it, there are a lot of factors here that essentially come down to personal vision and preference. On the topic of Swan Maidens - in the RW we have the Selkies, who are effectively Seal-maidens (or sometimes seal-men). This seems pretty in tune with the Ouori (although they aren't usually presented as shapeshifters, perhaps their ancestors were, or maybe some of their magical specialists are?) As for more influences - I thought I'd give a shout to the natives of arctic Asia - more specifically the Koryaks of Kamchatka and Nivkh of Sakhalin. These are notable for actually living in or near large taiga forests perhaps more like the ones imagined by Greg than coastal Norway. Beyond that they also have fascinating material cultures and survival strategies, with a mixture of sedentary and semi-nomadic practices. Not so much agriculture, however. Koryak use of leather lamellar for armor is interesting though. A source of inspiration of metal-starved Yggites? Who's to say. (The one below is actually made of metal, I believe, but most others I've seen have been hardened leather). Their helmets may or may not be made from bone (or walrus tusks) - which is a very convenient parralel to the Bronze Age Mycenaean Boar tusk helmets (pictured below-below).

A while ago I saw someone talk about how epic poems were told (it might've been Lindybeige), and they said that it was likely accompanied by the tapping of a staff onto the ground to keep the pace/rhythm. I'm not sure where he got that from, or if it's feasible in the long-term, but certainly the telling of a long-form epos is impressive.

I was onto the same thing - if they can dream up dragons, why not houses? But as mentioned, we do have "feralized" populations of Dragonewts around... Do the settlements of these have the same dream-like, otherworldly effect as the ones with priests and Inhuman Kings?

The concept of the novel is a fairly recent invention - either around 1100s or 1400s depending on whether you consider only European or include Asian equivalents as well. It is, however, needless to say more or less medieval. Long-form prose did exist prior to that, but it wasn't really considered a novel. Play manuscripts existed, for example, as did allegorical tales and such. Myths were collected, and some writers did blatant creative work to make sense of myths, even so far as to pretty much invent new ones. The border between fiction writing, divine inspiration and philosophy is pretty blurred there. Travelogues, often sensationalized also existed, as did biographies. Letters are of course a staple, although how widely used they were for private, amusement-centric correspondance I don't know. It's my impression that Glorantha is overall more developed in terms of writing and literature than the RW Bronze Age (and perhaps even Iron Age/Antiquity). Reading some of the designations for Knowledge Temple letters makes me think of how modern archeologists chart scrolls rather than how Bronze Age peoples would have done it - but I admit that's some personal assumptions. Glorantha also suffers from the "every myth is true"-issue, which a lot of fantasy does. Inserting fiction into those kinds of settings will often just be interpreted by RW-players as just another in-universe source of story hooks, imho.

Scotland aside, I'm curious to see what you mean about wood on Ygg's Isles. Do you mean to say that substantial amounts of wood survived up to the Closing?

Whether they died out on the isles or not isn't necessarily a definite matter for Yggite culture as a whole, as Yggites also dwelled on the mainland. I agree with you that if based on that single line, it does seem likely that the insular reindeer were probably gone, but who knows what the mainlanders got up to in the meanwhile, and also - which cultural adaptation proved to become dominant (if any) after the Opening. Admittedly, reindeer are more of a neat element to tie in to give them regional uniqueness from comparable cultures of Orlanthi origin in other parts of Fronela, imho. There are arguments for their inclusion, such as them being able to subsist on hardier lichen and mosses than horses or cattle and sheep, which give them an edge. Also - let's not forget that this is Glorantha, and pretty much whatever can conceivably be ridden will be ridden, RW physiology be damned. Their furs are useful for footwear (although seal fur is arguably better for this purpose, with a generous application of Carex vesicaria, or arctic sedge, for dryness), as well as for other kinds of clothes or for sleeping mats. Reindeer meat is very lean, though, and seals and walruses are probably more useful for getting through harsh winters. Even some white fish, probably. However, reindeer meat is more easily preserved - for those same reason. Reindeer also shed their antlers annually, which makes them a useful resource of horn-derived products. Ultimately you just gotta make a choice with this sort of thing, to include it as integral or not. Either works, imho. In terms of settlements, however, I've previously suggested looking to the Atlantic insular Bronze and Iron age for inspirations. The idea of Yggite longhouses is admittedly a cool one, but it'd also be interesting to see Atlantic roundhouses like the ones at Scara Brae (although these are admittedly neolithic), or Scottish Brochs: This design has benefits in that it implicitly shows a society preoccupied with defensiveness, as well as reducing wood usage - which is obviously a scarcity, Closing or not. Do we actually have accurate weather conditions or climate for the northwestern part of Fronela? Given that there's pine forest right up to the glacier's edge, something weird is definitely going on, regardless. You'd expect more birch (of different kinds), probably some juniper (which is useful for bows or other wooden tools requiring elasticity) and maybe some larch or even alder(?) further south, or in small groups along the coast

The Wolf Pirates shown in Prince of Sartar have the tan skin of more southerly Genertelans, like Esrolians, Caladralanders or Manirians, while Gunda the Guilty, a half-Jonating or -Junoran and half-Brithini is shown as nearly lily-white. Maybe I'm assuming things here, but I'd say those guys are probably newer recruits from later travels, and actual Yggite Wolf Pirates will look a bit more like Gunda - them being geographically, and possibly ancestrally more closely linked. That's just speculation though - Harrek is portrayed as deep-tan, which I believe is canonical in the sense that the Rathori are said to have fairly dark skin, while their neighbors, the Reindeer Hsunchen, do not. I might remember some things wrong. Maybe he's just been out in the sun a lot. EDIT: In terms of clothing, I would strongly argue that the Yggites wear woollen clothing over stereotypical fantasy furs, except in specific conditions. Partially this is because wool preserves its insulating properties even when wet (which is a huge boon if you're a sailor), but also because the Ygg's Isles are portrayed as fairly non-wooded, which would *seem* to make them better suited for sheep or goat grazing than hunting for pelts. There are exceptions though - reindeer skins are probably useful for a lot of things, depending on how much of a Sami-vibe we give them, and since they are sealers, they are probably familiar with the positive properties of sealskin.

Reminds of the Green Lady from Discworld.

I'll try and formulate some ideas, though I'll refrain from going too much into details, as I haven't the Guide or other sources near me. The Sourcebook's entry on him actually seem to take a slightly more nuanced position about him, which fits the one you mentioned (and also my own interpretation). In that way, he's not entirely unlike Shargash, who is sometimes depicted as a barely-restrained berserker, but also explicitly identified with Tolat, a god with a much broader portfolio and personality. Another similarity is Storm Bull, I think, who in places seem to be portrayed as virtually nothing but unthinking rage, but who is also a proud and firm patriarch of the Praxians. I suspect Vadrus may also have been subject to similar kinds of interpretation. As you said - he might be an asshole, but he's *our* asshole, damn it! ------ A Preliminary Idea of Yggite Beliefs Regarding Divine Matters (Using Theyalan-God Learner names): - Umath was the primal Storm, the Breaker of Chains, who saw the insufficiency of the stale, bad world and claimed a place for himself and his own. He was killed in furious battle defending his place in the world. This is the most important gift he left us: You Can Fight for Your Place. If there is none, you can make one. Or die trying. - Vadrus was Umath's rightful heir. He showed this by swearing vengeance for his father, honoring his memory and deeds, and leading revenge raids on his killers' holdings. To get the other sons of Umath to join, he sometimes had to harangue, cajole and bully. Not all of them followed easily. Vadrus took Storm Bull by the horns and nearly broke his neck. Storm Bull conceded. Vadrus had a shouting match with Kolat until the latter had a big headache and agreed to join. Humakt joined, but that story is secret. Last was Orlanth, who was the Youngest Brother. Vadrus knew Orlanth had a silver tongue, and wanted him to be his Herald. Orlanth was given arm-rings, and a horn, and swore allegiance to his older brother. Vadrus did many other good things too, such as killing the Great Blue Dragon, and freeing the Blue Woman, Helera. He took many wives and lovers, and had many children. He taught the Seas to fear him. He raided the Golden Cities, bringing abundant wealth back home, to the joy of his people, and honoring his oath of vengeance. Vadrus gave his children different parts of his lands, were they could Fight For Their Place. Some made it. Others not. - Valind was the one who managed to make the greatest place, and in it he made the Glacier, and took trolls and giants as blood-brothers. At one point, Valind almost took over the entire world with this alliance. But then the World Broke, and it was all for naught. - When the Unholy Trio created the Devil, and Chaos erupted into the world with a vast army, Vadrus recognized them as enemies, not only of himself, but all of creation. They were not Fighting for Their Place, but rather to make everyplace go away. So Vadrus took Orlanth's advice to welcome other forces to fight with them, even his old enemies. But in the battle, Orlanth abandoned his brother and lord, and cowardly fled, betraying his kin. Vadrus was left fighting alone. Perhaps he could've ran away, but he never backed down from a challenge. So he died. Not like most gods die - for they can come back again - but died forever and for real. The lights of the world flickered. The air grew stale. The seas sludgy. Orlanth was hidden and nowhere to be seen. - Valind swore to hold the line against the invaders from the north, and brought his allies of trolls, giants and beasts with him. He did so, abdicating his claim to kingship. And this is still where he is, though at times he gets a mind of taking back his old holdings, even if they have new lords now. We sometimes have to remind them of that, whether by propitiatory sacrifice, or by force of arms. - Ygg was Valind's son, borne from Nelia. He rose as a powerful waterspout and wild storm from the dark-grey bosom of the seas. He was tempestuous and wild, and fought valiantly against the killers of his great-grandfather, and was chosen to be the vanguard for his grandfather Vadrus. His great-uncle Orlanth clearly had envy for this. - When Vadrus died, Ygg had a claim to the kingship. [Not everyone agreed, and Ygg must go on a great quest to prove his worth. During this quest he gains followers, including a Seeress, and grows as a person, learning from past mistakes, and mellowing out, or at least learning to control his rage most of the time.] Finally, he was proclaimed king at the Moot, with a unanimous shake of arms. But his Seeress reminded him of her prophecy for him, and he steeled himself for what was coming. - When the Spike exploded, and Chaos ate and defiled the Heart of the World, the peoples of the world were in disarray, hiding in fear or robbing and killing each other over what little remained. But Ygg's maternal kin saw the Hole in Creation, and threw themselves into that hole. Ygg knew that the winds had to do so too, and since he was the King of the Greatest Winds, he had to go first. Taking with him his retinue, he stormed the Whirlpool, where his distant kinsman Magasta was seated, guarding the Hole. There, Ygg wedded his [daughter, sister?] to Magasta, and she birthed the Waterspout Sons, and the Winnow Daughters. Then, leaving his royal regalia in the hand of the Winnow Daughters, he stormed the Whirlpool with a great and mighty roar, showing that the old joy of battle still lived in him. Ygg then gave us his own lesson: Do What Must Be Done. Don't shirk away from it. Carry yourself with courage and dignity. - [Ygg enters the underworld, and has some kind of adventure. Not intended to be a parallel of the Lightbringer Quest. More similar to the I Fought We Won Battle, in that it is essentially a futile action that results in rebirth through sheer tenacity. It is more about revitalizing the air, water and possibly the other elements as well. Emphasis on the idea that Ygg essentially sacrifices himself to die in order to do this (No prize for realizing where this is borrowed from). Not entirely sure how any of this will fit together with God Learner ideas, The Compromise, Arachne Solara, or Time, but hey.] - The Ygg's folk waited in the stale darkness, not knowing whether they were alive or dead, or if they existed at all. But then, after what seemed an eternity, there came a great and fresh breeze from the east. The people then saw Ygg and his companions triumphantly return from the Underworld. It shattered their malaise, and let people sense who was living and who was dead, and who were just shadows and imaginations. His great breath blew away lies and deceit and uncleanliness. With it, there came the Winnow Daughters, and they brought him back his Regalia, and he was proclaimed, once again, the King of the World. At this, the Sun rose anew, and flowers bloomed, and the scales of the sea goddess turned from surly grey to brilliant silver. Then came the Seeress, and told him that the Usurper Orlanth had made a pact with Umath's killers to gain this title as well, by bowing and groveling before the Bad Emperor. But Orlanth knew and feared Ygg, the craven that he was, and so hid on mountaintops like an outlaw, which is where he still is, and from whence he still sometimes send bad winds or plants words of deceit. However, he is still kin, and so he is offered propitiatory sacrifices. In some rituals he is made to renounce his false claim to kingship, but this never lasts, as he is notoriously untruthful. ------ - [Pretty much all the details here are open, and mostly emerged from the idea of trying to create a more "Vadrucentric" spin on things. Potentially, Ygg could be made to be a direct son of Vadrus, for example, to jump over the Valind step which feels a bit redundant. I do not think one should be wedded to Theyalan/God Learner models of descent or relations - the GRoY and Entekosiad have both shown that quite radically different models and interpretations are not only possible, but sustainable. The important part is that Ygg is seen as the legitimate Lord of the Middle Air, both by heritage and by deed, whereas Orlanth is seen as a liar and cheat. I'm open to consider that the idea of Orlanth as a Usurper is a post-Time/First Era innovation by Yggites who were scandalized by claims made by Fronelan Orlanthi. Prior to that Orlanth was perhaps more fundamentally a mountaintop/hill-wind trickster god. Their airs are differentiated too: Ygg's winds are clean, pure, and while they can be violent, they are also the reliable weather systems and mild breezes. Orlanth's winds are foul, bring sickness or are otherwise in some fashion negative. Valind's status is ambiguous. As likely to be foe as friend, but most commonly neither - he's just another force that has to be dealt with in some fashion.] - [The upgrade from minor sea nymph to Nelia herself as Ygg's mother is in the same vein as me considering to cut out Valind as an intermediary step between Vadrus and Ygg. Parentage should be suitably grand, in some fashion. "Son of some nymph" seems to be to be the kind of origin story you give to other people's gods or heroes, not your own. Same goes for his relation to Magasta, which I realize is probably distant, but feels "right". Ygg's female relative being wedded to Magasta and creating the waterspouts is a twist on similar events recounted in the Sourcebook, but different storm heritage. Felt like it fit. The Winnow Daughters are original, but felkt like a nice counterparts to the male Waterspouts. The Winnow Daughters then become signifiers of legitimate royal authority, and are probably involved in kingship rites in Yggite society. Alternatively, they might be the mother-founders of various legendary Yggite clans. I like them though. The Seeress is a similar thing. Just a neat thing, and borrowed from Norse society, as well as a way to put in some female roles or power-brokers into the Yggite mythology/society. I did have some ideas for Storm Bull and Humakt, but decided against going into unnecessary detail. Suffice to say, I think the Yggites have a special reverence for Humakt, and see joining him as a legitimate way of escaping clan-feuds or restoring sullied honor. Revered, but suspect, of course.] - [Didn't delve into relationships with Frona/The Earth. I'm tempted to see her as a wife or lover of Ygg, which parallels Orlanth-Ernalda perhaps a bit too much, but which is kinda hard to avoid, what with the sea being his mom and therefore not really suitable wife material (unless you write around it, which is perfectly possible), and my vision of the Yggites being subsistence farmers like most other settled peoples in Glorantha. I'm also tempted to make Lodril (aka. Ladaral) an ally of some kind. Iceland as an inspiration for hot springs as holy sites, for example, although this would entail making the Ygg Isles volcanic, which I'm not sure if is in line with published material. The Brithini at Sog are obviously performing blasphemy of the highest order. Aldrya's relationship is also unspecified, but I imagine to be a complex affair, with highs and lows, but overall one sustained by ancient oaths. A simple tributary system is fine, but I'd like something more. I'm also open to look more into their history/mythological associations with the Rathori and Uncolings, as well as the Walrus-mermen/Ouri. They shouldn't just end up as being vikings by another name, but draw on different sources - for examples reindeer taming, or Bronze Age/Iron Age Atlantic roundhouse settlements, like Scara Brae, Brochs or what have you.] - [I didn't know what to do about the Sun, or Celestial entities in general. There is obviously more to it - but I decided to make it non-specific in this list. I considered making Vadrus the killer of Yelm, a culmination of his oath of vengeance. I considered not connecting the Sun with the Bad Emperor at all. I considered shifting the blame over on the Danmalastans and Zzabur/Malkion, even. In the end, I still don't know. As you can tell, this leaves a lot of questions about the Dawn. In terms of specifics, the only thing I thought was a neat idea was to make the Sun mounted on a ship, and possibly being steered by one of those companions Ygg earned on his adventures before he became worthy of kingship. A helmsman would in general be a fitting companion.] - [I wanted something alluding to the "Violence is Always An Option/There is Always Another Way", etc. of the Orlanthi, and "You Can Fight For Your Place" seemed like fitting at the time, and also helped highlight a possible mindset of the Yggites, in terms of piracy, traveling, clan membership, kingship, etc. More emphasis on the purpose of violence than the violence itself. Conan's Crom did spring to mind.]

Simples!

Birch bark is also useful in temperate/subarctic/high-altitude areas.

Well, clearly! Imagine reading or writing without speaking the words out loud. Such a thing is unimaginable!

Approximating Idaho/Wyoming or the like?

I don't know how to feel. I checked out the official precipitation stats for cities in my country to compare, and apparently we get ridiculous amounts of rain over here. Trondheim and Furthest are apparently comparable, and Oslo is comparable to Mirin's Cross. Interesting seeing the comparisons, puts things into perspective. Wouldn't have expected the Elder Wilds/Arcos to be so dry, with the massive forests and all, but it is rather far inland.

The wiki also says that Jenarong's Empire/the Jenarong Dynasty was called the "Ustrandlings" (either from GRoY or FS).

I'm sure Orlanth has the greatest herds of cattle a Storm Worshipper could ever conceive of, yet here they are burning offerings to him. It's more about continuously reaffirming the relationship of devotee-deity rather than material gain (or rather, the material gain lies in the relationship, not necessarily in what is being exchanged - if that makes any sense).

They might even specifically make copies for sacrifices. To make sure the copy is clean/ritually pure, or whatever (and, conveniently, redundant, as you said.)

I have many of the same questions, actually, and I was intending on making a thread about the Yggites and the remaining Vadrudi extant in Time (I've seen the Jonatings sometimes referred to as "Vadrudi", but they were converted from Hsunchen or possibly Storm Bull-associated people by Theyalan missionaries in the first age, and so have no connection to Vadrus that I know. The Yggites and whoever Valind keeps with him on the glacier seems the only extant Vadrudi in Time). I've read some cultural write-ups about the Yggites by fans, and in my opinion, a lot of them present them as very two-dimensionally brutish and downright evil people, with no laws respected beyond sheer force. Personally, I'm not a huge fan of that interpretation, and I suspect they mostly play into Orlanthi cultural biases and prejudices. I might offer some (very tentative, as I'm very new to this kind of thing) write-up myself. If I ever do, I think I'd position it in such a way that the Yggites much resemble the Orlanthi, but much moreso the "endemic warfare hill tribe" (except more nautical) Orlanthi, than the "builders of massive cities and sometimes empires" Orlanthi that we see every now and then, if that makes sense. The close cultural similarities (Rings, clans, lawspeakers, moots, subsistence plow-farming or horticulture with a focus on some kind of prestige livestock, etc.) would then be paired with a somewhat reversed mythos, where Orlanth is seen as cowardly Usurper, who brings impure winds, who stabbed Vadrus in the back, and who groveled before Yelm, debasing himself and his kin for all time. The juxtaposition of these two elements, (cultural similarity and religious opposition) would serve as a decent platform to explore rivalries and possibly even fusions. Relations with Valind on the glacier, the Sea gods, and even the Loskalmi and other Westerners would be the next part, probably. As you mentioned, a look into Aldrya and perhaps also the Rathori would be interesting too. Sorry if this was a bit of a hijack, it's a question that has fascinated me for a while.

Apropos of Pelorian armaments - what units of the Lunars will be using curved swords? Judging from the artwork I've seen, there seems to be a back-and-forth over whether Lunar regiments (not necessarily the Hoplite Phalanxes of pre-Lunar origin) should be using sabers or khopeshes and the like or not. Jar-Eel is famous for her "moonblades", which are seemingly curved, but are these unique in shape, or is there a general trend in curved blades among newer Lunar regiments, and if so, what shape do they take? Sorry for the aside, just thought it'd be pertinent given the wealth of info on armaments here.

It was my impression that "Hyalorong" was the endonym, and "Hyaloring" was a Theyalan exonym, if that makes sense. I'm not trying to start problems, I'm just genuinely curious. I agree with you that "Hyaloring" is a lot more approachable.

I think you misunderstood my question - it wasn't about why the -ing ending exists in Glorantha, or what it means (I'm Scandinavian, it's very common over here) - but rather why it was priviliged over the alternative form "Hyalor*O*ng", in a game ostensibly from the perspective of the Hyalorong themselves.

These are the same as the Yeneli? Are they the ones who worship King Vulture as well?

I might've misread the section then. It probably referred to protection from Chaos DURING the God Time, and not during the initial Creation, as it were. Still interesting, though.