Sir_Godspeed

Soren Mountain.

My impression is that the feats and accomplishments, as well as the semi-divine status of the Three Sovereigns and Five Emperors has basically been adopted by the Emperors in Glorantha. The different Emperors (both pre- and post-Draconism) are attributed with many of the same inventions and innovations.

I'm vaguely familiar with the trade-as-tribute system, and the naval policy to stop piracy - but not as detailed as you put it. My point, however, is that in the grand scheme of things, the 14th century is still pretty recent (albeit, as you highlighted, preceding direct European contact and borne out of regional and domestic concerns), considering that Glorantha is still, at least aesthetically, a Bronze Age-Iron Age setting. I believe one of the art pieces of Kralorela from the Guide (the one where a female heroine petitions a mandarin against a crime lord) features a Shang or Zhou bronzework vessel, and I just wish there was more of that, more esoteric and ancient stuff, than the Tang-Yuan-Ming, etc. stuff. It's not like it's not there - the Yellow Elves to the south, the monsters and Hsunchen in the Shangshang, and Ignorance to the north. There's definitely stuff to play with, but it needs attention, and personally, I think the focus on isolation is to Kralorela's detriment. Yeah, the tradition of talking about "dynasties" is a historiographic construct in itself. From what I know, some of the dynasties were essentially local kingdoms centred around ethnic identities like some European polities, while others were more like extended dynastic groups. In a way, China's history is a bit like if we had a bunch of different groups laying claim to the Mediterranean Basin by claiming they were the true heirs of Rome, and once they managed to get control, were simply referred to as "The French Dynasty of Rome", the "German Dynasty," etc., even though these are very different actors. It's a focus on continuity and stability as a political tool, one that lends itself very well to building a national/imperial identity and heritage after the fact. If the Chinese Confusian system was anything like the Japanese idea of The Four Professions, farmers would actually be ranked above merchants and craftsmen. Theoretically, at least.

Good stuff! I've previously read about the Three Departments and Six Ministries, which I see now was either a variant or successor to this system. The whole public examination system for the Mandarins/Literati is one of the aspects of Chinese history that interest me the most, as it is quite eye-catching for someone used to the European models of government functionaries often being clergymen, and later on educated at universities often associated with the Church. As for Kralorela in its whole... I have to admit it's a region I'm having a hard time getting excited about. It very much feels like "China but fantasy, I guess", and seems to me to lack the kind of highly syncretized "weirdness" of the rest of Genertela. The focus on isolation (which was really only a policy in later China, from what I know, and so is as much based on European orientalism as it is based on real history) also makes it less easy to include in stories or story hooks, which is a problem I have with the Dwarves as well. The passage on Kralorela in the Guide also reads more like propaganda now that I know a bit more about the infighting and political upheavals that the empire has had over the years. The desire to project stability is in itself interesting of course, but not quite enough for me.

Real talk: that artwork of the Third Eye Blues have to be some of the coolest I've seen so far. Not just of Six Ages, but in all of Glorantha. Yeah, there are a few different references to sorcerers, "logicians" and "blues" in Pelanda, and while it's always been kind of assumed they were Westerners/Malkioni, it's not been clear which belief system them followed or from which group they come. Seems the Third Eye Blues are full-on Brithini/Vadeli-style atheist though. Their dark skin color and (general) African features are interesting though. Not a massive shakeup - I mean, Danmalastan bordered with Pamaltela, and there are plenty of lands inbetween mixing people of various types, but still, interesting. Trying to connect these to the Vadeli (or Vuymorni, perhaps) in Chir or some of the other southern tribes, likes the Kadeniti or the Tadeniti. That is, of course, assuming that dark-skinned people need to come from somewhere southerly at all. That might just be assumption on my part.

Interesting. No specific instance of Plant (Flamal, Aldrya, whoever) and Water fighting comes to mind, but I could easily be wrong. As for the Moon bit - it's interesting that in this instance, it is opposed to the Dwarves, but in Time the Dwarves see the rise of the Red Moon as a sign their repairs of the World Machine are bearing fruit. It would be fun to see just how many of these myths reflect things we already know, and which are innovations/looks into previously uncovered events/perspectives.

That sword looks awfully Tolat-y.

Just saw that another possibly Zarkosite-derived goat-worshipping peple were the Sidarsi, residing around Imther at the Dawn. Possibly related to the Votanki, but I'm not sure. Certainly, there is a tradition of goatherding around the Pelorian bowl that opens up for a few possible candidates, though. The Ergeshites in the game might be some kind of hitherto unknown "missing link" between the goatherders of Time, and the Golden Age Zarkosites.

"Get regurgitated" or "Survive Digestive Tract" seems like a spell Eurmal would provide. On another note, I'd imagine duck trickster to taste most fowl.

I hope the feedback isn't frustrating you, Helsdon. I've been watching some of the comments, and to me some of the issues mentioned seem quite negligible, but it's one of those things were nitpicks can get really finicky because it feels so close to just right. Putting up resketch after resketch might not feel that rewarding, artistically, but I hope it's not discouraging you from the project itself.

It's an old anthropological adage that the difference between the sacred and cursed is often coincidental.

There's a character in Elmal Guards the Sunpath that is referred to as the Demon Sun, isn't it? I always assumed that was a reference to Shargash going nuts without supervision. So he possibly became one of the contesting pseudo-Suns at the time. More evidence that the red sun-like thing on the side of the Bird-riders: Shargash apparently vowed to protect Verapur against the Glacier. While this is in vain, Verapur did supposedly lay in mythical Rinliddi (possibly parts of it now submerged in the sea, or in desolate Eol), and had such gods as Vrimak and Avarnia were both bird gods. Verapur or a successor city may have become the core of the Riskesting Empire under Emperor Kestinoros - but the timeline is all wonky about this, and if the vision you see in Six Ages is pre-Storm Age, then that's probably not the events we're witnessing, probably some vision of how Verapur/Rinliddi and its birds and gods were put into the Dara Happan decapoli to begin with.

All I know about the Ergeshites is from the wiki: Ergesh is supposedly the Dara Happan god of slaves, which is commonly confused or conflated with Votank. I believe we had a discussion in another thread about a Goatherding people in the Elder Wilds which may or may not have descended from Zarkosites. I don't know much more. The wiki also says that Kostaddi was populated by goatherders in the Golden Age, not sure if that's relevant. They are also shown wearing lion pelts, which is interesting, as this matches the description one of the allies of the Rams or Andam Horde as described in the Glorious Reascent, iirc. The bird army is probably probably the Rinliddi, in one of their independent modes, such as the Riskesting Empire or the Ratite Empire (which may or may not be the same, or successors of each other). Your assessment of the timey-wimey and political "retconning" of gods is pretty bang on the money as far as I know.

Great question! It's one of those things I've seen mentioned in many of the lore-threads I lurked in around the Internet before I got involved here. It was repeated so regularly that I thought I've just taken it for granted. I seem to remember people using it in conjunction with the Orlanthi acceptance of homosexuality to show newbies that they had to leave their ideas of "ancient/medieval" morality at the door.

While all that is absolutely true - I was actually specifically referring to the breastplate the zzaburi is wearing. In Glorantha, this breastplate represents the Runes, iirc, but in real life it was a symbol of a high priest of the kohen priests, and the stones were a symbol of office, as well as a means of divination, iirc. (pardon the low resolution)

This might be a bit of an aside, but I used to dabble in military history, and the general gist of it is that before the invention of the stirrups, the overarm thrust in lancing was used, which severely limited the usefulness of heavy cavalry, and charging in general. If a saddle doesn't even have an under-belly strap, that obviously reduces the stability even further, as does the lack of a front-and-rear (swell/gullet and cantle) elevation on the saddle for seat stabilization. However, as far as I understand, there is actually evidence that ancient people did in fact use underarm lance thrusts before the invention of the stirrup, and the total absence of it is apparently a misconception. I'm afraid I don't know more than that, as I only dabbled it in this stuff. It might've been a rarer move, or highly circumstantial, or only moderately useful, I don't know. What we do know is that underarming became a lot more common after stirrups were introduced.

At the shoulders, or somewhere else?

Cryptic, but interesting as always. Fair dues - I did not necessarily mean to say that they were ALWAYS hermaphroditic, but to say that this representation implied certain things about their past. Anyway, I got your point. Their form of reproduction, intermingling, and multiplication defies our ideas of sexual reproduction, and - I'm guessing - any other form or label we currently have in the realm of RW biology. Ah. I was of the impression that Sramak "produced" Gata in a manner conceptually analogous to (or at least human-mentally analogized as) a clam making a pearl. If this is another God Learner innovation then, again, fair enough. They are unreliable cosmologists/mythographers, even if they're one of the few whose writings we have access to. Wow! Now that is really interesting. No wonder the Seas were pissed/saddened to lose him. Well, temporarily. Even rain goes back to the seas, eventually. Are there any written/available accounts of this?

The talk about Cwim, the Chaos monster with three conjoined bodies made me think of the wider ideas regarding physical deformities in Glorantha. When I looked at the Gods War figure, I was struck by how I've seen twins conjoined by the head before (although not triplets). Is physical deformity usually associated with Chaos, or some other generic idea of congenital disease? Curses, or bad astrological conditions during the marriage/conception/birth? Do we know of any specific culture's attitude on this subject? I've gotten the impression that the Orlanthi view being left-handed as a "physical deformity", and kill children with this condition. Is it associated with Chaos or some other concern?

I believe Helsdon said that they are not all relative to scale with each other.

The Glorious Reascent says about Emperor Orogoros, that he passed "laws contrary to modesty", which is specified to mean that people had to remove their hats and shoes in his presence. This is a historical text, but since it is so judging of this event, one assumed that modern DH (or at least, at some point within Time) views keeping one's shoes and hats on in the Emperor's presence a way to preserve "modesty". Whether this applies only to meetings between the aristocracy and the Emperor, or whether it applies to lower echelons of DH society I have no idea.

To me, the various "racial Hero Wars plots" read a lot like what I'd find in a Warhammer Codex or Army Book: they're part story hook, part propaganda to get you hyped for that faction. Realistically, as they clash, there's going to be mixes and alterations of the various plots, depending on the interpretations of the reader and actions of the player.

Maybe it's just very predictable? Maybe there are non-cultic ways getting a sense of when it will arrive?

That might have been a hypothetical question - but I'm genuinely curious.

Considering that the picture of a stereotypical zzaburi in the Guide is clearly based heavily on a Jewish Kohen of the Jerusalem Temple, that seems good to me.