Sir_Godspeed

I'd love to learn more about Tekumel, and I've dipped my feet in it, but there are parts of it that I find eminently less desireable than many other universe (eg. no stars in the night sky, no mounts, evidently little to nothing social mobility, static empires, etc.). According to a podcast I heard about the ruleset, it's also somewhat bizarre in some aspects (as in some specializations appear to be almost completely useless deliberately, although I can't attest to that personally). Still, the aesthetics of the setting intrigue me - the mix of Mezo-American and Indian moreso than the ancient tech, admittedly. Anyway, this is a bit besides the thread topic.

Glorantha is often marketed as a Bronze Age world, and while most of the people here will be quick to explain that it's a lot more complicated than that, the general idea is that Glorantha is at the very least based on a world from before the medieval period. We have many civilizations which have inspired and left their mark on Glorantha, from the Indus Valley civilization and Mesopotamia to the Migration Era Byzantines or Sarmatians, and even Plains Indians of the Americas. Yet, aside from merely the title of "Pharaoh", not retconned away, there is not really any input from that most long-lived of ancient civilizations: Egypt. At first this completely passed me by, but the more I think about it, the more curious I find it. Are the influences there, but too subtle for me to see? I know that Orlanth and Yelm and the Gods War are inspired by the conflict between Set and Ra/Osiris, but that's a deep cut. I know that lunar blades have in the past sometimes been presented as khopeshes instead of the more common Greek blades we've seen in later artwork, but that's such a small, ephemeral detail. Was Greg just not that interested in Egyptian society and architecture? Or was it a case of not really having a place to put them? There aren't a lot of truly sandy deserts in Glorantha with massive winding rivers through them, I suppose. I know some people will mention the Zola Fel, but well, it's a bit underwhelming, and hardly an urbanized centre of power like Egypt proper. Oslira comes second, but given its subarctic regions and the continental climate, again, not really a good fit. I guess I just find it a bit interesting that we have several examples of stepped pyramids (even the Tusk Raiders get one), but none of the smooth ones, as it were. No barques winding up a slow river, through lotus flowers, with the baking sun above, and massive irrigation fields silted by reliable annual floods. The closest we get there is perhaps Esrolia, which again is not a very close fit, aesthetically or otherwise. Just... curious.

There are pre-Malkioni civilizations there, like the ones that built Hrelar Amali, and the catacombs of Seshna Likita, or maybe he's thinking of urban coastal Slontos, idk. There appears to be this Dawn Era, or pre-Dawn Hsunchen/Hykimi-Earth complex in places, which appears to have built some stuff, is my general impression. We discussed a lot around this during an earlier thread, although it's a bit late on my side so I can't really look it up right now.

Not anymore, it seems, but he was onboard for both Morrowind and Oblivion. Of the two, Morrowind is definitely the more conceptually and visually interesting. Oblivion would have been too, but it was toned down to be more "medieval Europe", unfortunately - though there is still some delightfully weird stuff in the lore there (like references to a timetraveling cyborg/robot from the future coming back in time to help human slaves revolt - or a dude mating with a literal hill to produce a demigod.)

Ah, another pupil of the Six Walking Ways, I see.

I think that makes a lot of sense, and is a really cool idea. I guess they got the kernel of this from the Vadeli?

The institutional divide in Glorantha is less between state and cults, and more between cults that serve different social functions, imho. Priesthoods double as their respective roles (rulers, administrators, scribes, warriors, traders, etc.). Additionally, the line between such institutions and family units is also often very difficult to conceptualize, making these entities sometimes like a mix of a clan/dynasty, a religious cult/sect, and some kind of instrument of governance. Sounds a bit wishy-washy, I guess, but that's the best I can put it.

uh-oh....

No, but this sounds like a cool lore hook!

If you engage with it in an active, knowledgeable manner, yes, otherwise it's probably just as common to reproduce tired old stereotypes.

Yup, that's actually how I found out about Glorantha to begin with! Vivec, a living god of the Dark Elves in the Elder Scrolls, has "Lord of the Middle Air" as his title, as a pretty shameless nod to Glorantha, I can only assume, though in the Elder Scrolls it's more of a metaphorical title.

It's also pretty hard, both to keep consistency, and to make them practical, aesthetically right, and catchy. And it's not really the direction Glorantha seems to have gone in, with a few exceptions (like the Orlanthi title of Dar, for example).

Not specifically, but I'm vaguely reminded of a lengthy blog or discussion on the nitty-gritty of slavery in Fonrit, how it would work in terms of inheritance, marriage, household economics, demography, etc. In trying to dig it up, I'm not sure if I found the right thread, but here's a couple that might be interesting (not taking responsibility for various peoples comments): https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/glorantha-adventures-in-fonrit.734315/page-3 https://www.glorantha.com/forums/topic/darleester-and-the-masarins/

Not entirely sure what you took offense to, but my comment was directed at loardabdul's points above. Turning the Lunar Empire into a Caliphate, especially one ruled by obese, corrupt Sultans with opulent courts and harems, that cavort with demons.. well, it's tapping into some long-standing negative stereotypes of real life Arabs that litter European and Western literature and cinema. As you say, if that influence is instead a part of a wider mix of cultural influences, and the Lunar Empire is presented in a more nuanced way, then those issues are remedied, though I am obviously not the authority on at what point they cease to be a problem or not. The point here isn't to waggle fingers at people and accuse them of being Morally Repugnant Bad People (tm) and to present myself as The Sole Grand Arbitrator of All That Is Woke (c), it's just to keep in mind that when we import tropes from the RW or literature, there can be some iffy baggage in there. I trust that is okay.

I'll be honest, there's some iffy underlying cultural prejudices there that I'd prefer to avoid. Especially since they're in conflict with the Orlanthi, a group that has frequently been portrayed as quasi-Germanic.

As mentioned above, some of the above are just doubled up, because some of the older sources used Orlanthi names for what were obviously meant to be original Doraddi (or otherwise) deities. For example, Revealed Mythologies mentions Lodril, I believe, when it actually means Balumbasta. I gather that this was mostly a case of Greg using the established equivalent in these unfinished texts until he worked the other stuff out. Asrelia, Ernalda, etc. should similarly be replaced by their rough Doraddi analogies, so more or less Yanmorla and Aleshmara, respectively. The Doraddi and assumedly Fonritans as well, don't see the sun within Time as the same as the one that got killed during the God Time, but rather a new being, so Yelm is pretty much irrelevant to them. I didn't know they worshipped Yelmalio, but apparently writers love stuffing him damn everywhere, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised. It's likely that some of the more specialized gods are indeed only worshipped by a fairly small group (guilds, masarins, etc.), but if they are worshipped by elite prestige groups, their public image might be overinflated beyond how many worshippers they actually have. I mean, not a lot of us own Ferraris, but we all know about the brand, you know? We could take the analogy further and just spitball that maybe some of these niche prestige gods are the patrons of some popular festivals or holidays, (The Day of Fragrances! Cue perfumes being lavishly spent by the masarins, public cooking, dancing, music, intoxication, slaves being kept docile with bread and circus, etc.), sort of like some elite sports car manufacturers made their names through building winning race cars. Not perfect, I know, but I'm trying to keep a constructive spin on it. As for the names, I agree they aren't very catchy, and probably underwent a less rigorous try-out process than the classics like "Yelm" or "Orlanth", etc, but maybe if we go in with the attitude that the listed names are their full, formal titles, then whoever is RPing over in Fonrit can draw up some more common everyday monickers.

I believe I actually read @Nick Brooke's account of the Carmanians before I got my hands on any of the Stafford library books, and so I definitely have a pretty positive view of the Carmanians! Their pseudo-Zoroastrian dualistic cosmology that ties together Western monotheistic sorcery and caste society with the polytheism of Peloria - both conceptually and geographically - feels like a bit of a stroke of genius. Plus, Persians are cool, cataphracts are cool, and having some literal mages (Magi) in Glorantha feels right.

I've always thought of the 2nd Age Jrusteli as monotheists in a "purist" Western/Malkioni vein, but the Sourcebook refers to Wachaza as the "war god of the Jrusteli", which made me a bit confused. Additionally, they were supposedly harboring a clandestine worship of Dirot as well. So did the Jrusteli combine Invisible God worship/sorcery with polytheism? Was it a pluralistic society with the theist cults standing aside from the sorcerer castes, or was it a case of the sorcerers enforcing their will on Wachaza and Diroti (or alternatively, gaming their worship rituals for benefits), or is there some other process/dynamic at play? Cheers.

Crabtown makes me think of Ald'ruhn from Elder Scrolls Morrowind, though here is the somewhat more updated Elder Scrolls Online version:

I imagine we're going to have this discussion about thanes in about twenty five years.

I've been meaning to ask: those borders and fonts, are they custom-made, or does Chaosium provide access to them for Compendium authors?

It was my impression that Ernaldela was basically an umbrella term for the areas that the Vingkotlings held, so would encompass Mavorela, Envorela, Kethaela, Kerofinela, etc., rather than a distinct geographical region in itself. I could be wrong though. Ah, I see, so it would a larger coalition. Gotcha.

I wonder how Shadowrun with Necromunda-esque combat rules would be. Different genres, I know, but sounds kinda neat.

Worcha (Rage) was a sea god who during the Storm Age attempted to invade Ernaldela (more or less modern Kethaela and Maniria ++ ) apparently with the aid of Helerings. Wachaza is apparently the designated war god of Water/Sea. They have quite similar names. Is there a connection between them? Is is one of those "Ehilm and Yelm" types of deal, or are they truly distinct entities? Also, if Worcha Rage led Helerings, would Heler have been involved in some fashion? Could Worcha have been a chosen general or subordinate or a more martial pre-buddy Heler, or even some sea-level aspect of Heler himself? This last one seem implausible, but the connection is still kinda weird. Maybe the Helerings were subordinate to Wachaza instead? Or just a mutual alliance? This might all be nothing, it's just something that's been rolling around in the back of my mind for a while.

Now I want to make a Western Sorcerer modeled after Buster Keaton.