Sir_Godspeed

IT BEGINS.

How common are iron swords anyway?

Praise be! And such! (EDIT: Just realized that my comment might've seemed a bit glib: just to be clear, I wish people a genuinely good Pesach and Easter. ^^ )

I just want to say that I find this all very interesting to follow. It seems virtually impossible to tease out a holistic image of these various (often conflicting) data points, but kudos to you guys for working on it. Even more than viewing this as a debate over which interpretation is "factual", it's just just engrossing to watch the different interpretations and possible syntheses springing from them. Cheers!

The reward is of course some amazing makeup earthquakes.

"The Mending of The Violent Earth Marriage" sounds like a pretty funny Heroquest to me.

Maran Gor is more or less the goddess of the violent powers of the earth, "Hard Earth", a subset of "Dark Earth (Gor)", etc. Lodril is the god of the fire within earth, or as the Pelandans put it in the Entekosiad, "Heat in Matter", as it were. Both have some overlapping things, most notably earthquakes, which they are both stated to cause (I forget the literary source on Lodril/Veskarthan on this one, but I'm pretty sure it's in the Sourcebook or Guide). Anyway, with such shared affinities, are there any stories of the two interacting in any way? (I was considering making them (or rather, cognates of them) a married couple for my North-Pentan Muskox people. Gods of the rumbling and heat from below the Earth, who provide secret insights through hot springs and geysers, but are also quick to anger and can kill with sinkholes and landscape frost heaving, and are the source of many ribald and funny stories concerning their passionate and sometimes violent relationship. This got me thinking about their wider relationship, if any.)

This is my general impression, based on a hypothetical Sartarite "man in the street", as it were, not some learned Runelord: Magic that doesn't spring from the respectful veneration of the (good) gods is bad and you should stay away from it. Lhankor My sages are religious chaps and so their sorcery "doesn't really count" as godless sorcery. Esvulari magics probably straddle a line, but it mostly okay so long as they pay their respects to Orlanth and whatnot. (Edit: Also, Lhankor My won his access to sorcery fair and square by just being better so it's his and his followers' to use. Just more proof that us Orlanthi are the best! Suck it, Zzabur!) Also, hey, if some sorcerer (Arkati, Malkioni, who knows, these sorcerers all look the same to me) comes around and he's in service of a powerful king or whatever, then you shut your yap and let them him do his thing so long as it doesn't cause the community harm. Best not to upset the king by bonking his favorite godless heathen in the head.

Huh... Soeh, does this mean that the Yggites originate post-2nd Age, or that they used to live on the mainland prior to this? Perhaps we should split this question off into a separate thread, since it's not directly on-topic of Western warfare (the yggites are a pretty peripheral group).

Also, bilingualism is historically not as rare as we might think, based on what little I've read on the subject.

That's quite possible, and would provide an elegant solution to not only Choralinthor, but the wider network of the Kingdom of Night, especially since RW diplomatic relations were often framed as familial relations (f.ex. Levantine Bronze Age rulers referring to each other as father, uncle, son, etc. in official treaties as a metaphor for their diplomatic relations).

I'm not going to get into a very detailed discussion on trade hypotheticals, but it just seems weird to me that a geographical region that within the last five hundred years has received large demographic shifts (Kerofinelans escaping the True Golden Horde) and has mostly been isolated except long-range high-value, low-volume trade through Maniria, has not has internal homogenization when it's located around a calm, resource-rich, navigable piece of water.

I suspect Heortling and Esrolian also stuck pretty close together since the Dragonkill, since refugees from Dragon Pass traveled into both regions, and there was probably a lot more mingling between the two regions during the Closing than with anywhere else.

Incidentally, Sorbs (aka Wends) are a West-Slavic ethnic group that lives/used to live in the border regions between Germany and Poland. No relation, I'd guess.

This is part of the reason why I think Maran Gor (or rather, "Hard Earth" in the generic sense) is closely tied to the overal divine identity/expression of Kero Fin. Sure, people need to grow grains and graze animal in Kerofinela just as much as anywhere else agriculture is practiced, but Kero Fin's nature is not quite the same as lowland Kethaela, Maniria or Peloria, which is why I think that Maran Gor/Ana Gor, and the "Hard Earth" (whether you consider that a subset or synonym for Dark Earth or not) is as much part of Kero Fin as Ernalda is, and possibly moreso than most other places in Glorantha. Admittedly all of this ties into my personal hobby-horse of talking about how the Earth Goddesses intersect in a more complex and interwoven manner (due to, imho., being more in touch with the Prime Earth of which they are filtered expressions/emanations) than perhaps most other pantheons/classes of gods. The various goddesses that intersect in the local goddess complex are to a limited extent interchangeable (sort of on a spectrum, perhaps). Ernalda and Maran Gor probably aren't except in very speculative ways, but Ana Gor can be seen as Maran Gor in a particular aspect/role, and I suspect Kero Fin can act in both manners, or to reverse it, both Ernalda and Maran Gor can act as Kero Fin (because utimately, the difference between them is somewhat artifical, as I see it). Anyway, sorry to get into this bewildering train of thought. Basically, what I'm saying is that to be the earthly incarnation of Kero Fin is as much about embodying the Dark Earth as it is the Fertile Earth when it comes to Kerofinela in particular, perhaps to the point of Kerofinela being to Maran Gor almost what Esrolia is to Esrola (although this might be pushing it a bit too far, I don't know).

I honestly think Kero Fin has as much of an affinity to Maran Gor as with Ernalda, imho.

I can't help thinking that if the other Great Tribes were given the same in-depth treatment, one would find stuff about them that stands out as well.

There is a story of Greg Stafford being asked this at a convention in Britain, I believe (some of the members on this forum where there, but I can't recall who, sorry) and his response was pointing out at the landscape outside. Basically, the general idea seems to be that post-Hero Wars Glorantha becomes more "mundane" and less magical. The King of Sartar book goes into a little more detail, but it's all based on unreliable sources and unreliable narrators. The general jist seems to be, however, that post-Hero Wars everyone in Dragon Pass loses the ability to read or write, and historical sources are forgotten (making the Hero Wars and the identity of Argrath a mystery), until a dictatorical regime by one Harshax (or their predecessors) unifies it in some manner. That is the point in time when the actual book is being composed from older, fragmentary sources.

The Reforesting is certainly calamitous to some. The Kingdom of War appears to canonically get stamped out fairly quickly, but there's no reason it has to end like that in people's timelines. There's also the ever-present question what Loskalm had to do to win. Rastagar emerges from Dorastor after the Dragonkill and does some pretty awful things. Sheng Seleris gets ressurected and also does awful things. Fun times.

Thse are cool! Getting some Mike Mignola (Hellboy) or Darkest Dungeon vibes from them. This might be cliched, but I'd be tempted to align them with the classical sins/vices. "Crown" could be pride, for example. "Maw" gluttony, maybe. "Antler" wrath. Kudos to the artist.

Given that Sartar was basically a pacifist in his unification quest (if I've understood it correctly), does that alter the cult/Orlanth Rex idea in any significant way?

I'm getting warhammer space marines (especially Ultramarines or Imperial Fists) vibes here. Cool! This might be purely conjecture, but I'd imagine Brithini armies also rarely experience the issues common to most others, ie. dysentery, flu, desertion, etc.

Wasn't there a thread about this some time ago? I think someone mentioned Fonrit in particular in the context of such beings.

Yeah, that was my general impression, but I wasn't entirely sure.

The archetype of the male mortal ruler with a divine wife is everywhere in Glorantha, most commonly in the form of marriage to Earth Sovereignty Goddesses, but also some other types. Often, this takes the form of a male ruler marrying a priestly representative of said goddess, but sometimes it's a literal marriage to a goddess (not that there's necessarily much of a difference in some cases). My question here is about the other way around: female rulers with divine husbands, and the product of children from there. There are a few examples of this, not all of which are marriages: - Norinel marrying Kimantor (The Only Old One) in the Darkness. Although it's possible that both of these were effectively demigods already. - The Amazons on Trowjang being collectively married to Tolat and begetting children by him once a year (probably not ALL of them getting pregnant every year, but you know what I mean). - Darkness Vingkotling female leaders (and possibly other groups) marrying Star Captains or other descending gods come to protect the mortals. - Hon-Eel winning a contest against a Pentan priestess to carry the children of a Sun God (Kargzant? I forget). This one is particularly notable to me because it is framed like an epic quest where Hon-Eel is the active participator, as opposed to Norinel who is more of a static obstacle in her own story where Kimantor wins her heart, at least initially. - There might be more. Marriages to Turos? Pelandan queens marrying Ket-Turos (the city-guardian aspect of Turos)? I'm not sure. If people are aware of others, I'd love to hear. Especially ones where the female ruler is an active story participant as opposed to a bargaining chip or what have you. Here's an idea I had, a story-seed that people could plop wherever it fits (such as in the Janubian valley or in Ralios): Once, the city of Tagulstar was a small community, bereft of the large agricultural areas it now proudly possesses. For nearly three hundred years, the Yeresmid dynasty in one form or another has ruled the city through a special covenant with their patron deity, Urakar of the Glittering Wall. The story goes that the dynasty's progenitor, Queen Yeresmel, inspired by a dream, traveled to the mountain, and pleaded for her people. Three times he rejected her, finding the approach of a mortal bothersome, and tossed her away with frozen winds, only for the woman to stubbornly make her way back up. Each time she traveled higher and higher to catch up to the Lord of the Glittering Wall, and each time establishing a shrine and hallowing it with strenuous rites before his disapproving, and uninterested gaze. Each night she slept on the mountain, something would assault her, whether a ferocious beast, a thundering avalanche, freezing gales, or a howling spirit. Each time she bested them with defiance, cunning or might of arms. After the third time Yeresmel was wind-swept off the mountain by the Lord's terrible breath, she ventured back up with grim determination, and Yeresmel reached the very pinnacle of the mountain. There, above all the world, the unrelenting queen let loose her desperate fury, so tired of the divine's callousness, and broke out in a harrowing tirade. She pointed at her people's plight, her own ordeals, her piety, and tossed the last sacrifice she had brought into the snow with a furious growl. If such was the aloofness of gods, what good where they, then? Seeing the queen's stubborn resolve and her passionate fury in the defense of her people, the Glacier King's interest was piqued, and he came forth from his privacy within the frozen peak. For nine days she stayed as his guest, being waited upon by his servants, and engaging in conversation and courtship of a strange kind. Once she finally descended from the mountain she was bedecked in the most exquisite finery, was escorted by a guard of snowy-white retainers, and was with child, a blessed union borne out of not only respect, but finally genuine love, for the Glacier King's frozen heart had been melted by the queen's red-hot resolve, it is said. When Yeresmel's child was born, there fell a rain of hail in summer, and the people knew that Lord Urakar had come down from the mountain to see his paramour and their child. What promises they made no one knows, but when the hailstorm ended, they shepherds in the foothills above the plain saw first a trickle, then a steady stream of water from the glacier. Urakar's gift spread through the lowest lands, making its course known to the people so that they could evacuate, and where before there had once been dry, dusty flats, there would now be well-watered fields for grazing and crops. For their initiation, every heir of the Yeresmids must ascend the mountain, and after nine days they will come down. Some times the heir has been rejected, and they have been tossed unceremoniously in the river (although never killed, for they are still the Glacier King's blood relatives) and the task has fallen to a younger sibling, but most times they have thankfully descended with gifts and renewed oaths, and the title of Scions of the Glittering Wall, favored of the Glacier King. While Queen Yeresmel chose to be buried in the mound of her forebears, it is said that summer hailstorms frequent it more often than anywhere else, and the snow stays on it for longer than anywhere else in the lowlands, for Lord Urakar holds his love dear, and frequently visits her there in the mansions of the blessed dead. I don't know if this was up to snuff, and I'm still new to writing for Glorantha, and also to writing stories based around getting children as rewards, but I hope it was amusing, if nothing else. And don't forget the main question above.