Sir_Godspeed

@Joerg, @scott-martin On the topic of Runner reproduction, I was reminded of an online world-building/speculative biology project that I quite love. It features a kind of animal-derived plant where every other generation is sessile and mobile. It's not spot on for Aldryami, but there are some interesting parralels. The mobile (haploid) generation is referred to as "mobile fruit". Not sure if Runners can be seen as "autonomous seeds" or "autonomous saplings" or somesuch (iirc they are derived from smaller plants in a relationship roughly size-analogous to humanoid Aldryami) but hey. https://sunriseonilion.wordpress.com/ilion/species/red-plants/

The problem is that Kralorela isn't ENOUGH of a smorgasbord. I think we all want more weirdness in there. Hell, if you look at the current iteration of Seshnela, with its heavily indianized influences, it's not unreasonable to want Kralorela to feature some inspirations from way outside East Asia (the Ignorance Mezo-American stuff is one such element that could be extended, played with, or what have you). Personally, I look forward to the whole draconic enlightenment deal to be accompanied by less culturally monolithic ideas. We know from digging around in the esoteric lore that Kralorelan history has been far less contiguous and stable and uniform than the texts on Dragon Emperors make it seem, and I want those internal differences, complexities, weirdnesses and so on out into the light and into plain text. Anyway, this is all an aside to the main topic.

At least in Carmanianism, iirc.

The Spearman might not be associated with lies and deception, but he is involved in an "error", which might be thematically related, with a difference in the perspective on intent. Just a thought.

Yeah, we've talked before about how Chaos as a concept doesn't really seem to pop up in Pelorian, including Pelandan sources. As Joerg mentioned, at least in a Dara Happan sense, it's insubordination that is the original sin. For the Pelandan Green Age myths explored in the Entekosiad, it's arguably authoritarianism/patriarchy. Ultimately, this does make it hard to "translate" Pelorian associations to the Theyalan ones, which as far as I understand, are the ones that are most recognizeable to RL-readers.

Regular tarring of wood can push survivability into many decades' worth of time in temperate climate, especially if it's a whole-timbered structure. Ultimately though, yes, wood needs replacing during regular maintenance. Thankfully, replacing wood is certainly doable.

This is partly what makes this discussion so difficult. Like real religious beliefs, this isn't something one can discuss "objectively". Everything is written from someone's perspective, often with accompanying terminology. And frankly it is doing my head in. 😅 Ultimately, despite how much I'd like them to, many of these pieces are not going to fit with each other, just like Gnostic and Trinitarian and Twelver Islamic Christology aren't just nicely going to slot together. My impression of Hrestol is kind of a King Arthur-Buddha-Jesus character. Adventurist, spiritual, and more of a practice over technicalities kind of guy. That whole baggage came with his disagreeing disciples after he got crucified/swordified by the Brithini.

I've edited my comment with a bit more information and thoughts. My apologies if that messed up anyone's initial reading.

My bad, I had a piece of misremembered wiki information. I got the impression that Warera was also called Engr, but indeed it's another name for Malkion. I looked up in Revealed Mythologies, and it has a frankly bizarre version of events where Engr is mentioned. Specifically, it pg. 25. that deals specifically with the history of Brithos. For one, it explicitly states that the Vadeli were the native population of Brithela, descended from a goddess named Vadela (which at that point was a peninsula connected to Seshnela, prior to the Darkness). These Vadeli are then driven away by a group of newcomers: "The union of Aerlit Kolate and Warera Triolin fructified in the birth of Malkion, also called Engr. Upon a series of wives he begot numerous children, who later fought with the Vadeli for possession of the land before the Great Dawning" (I hope this does not excede the acceptable amount of text for quotation). It then goes on to state that these battles sank the southern portions of Brithela, and the Vadeli since then hid away, terrified of the Malkioni magics. There's a lot of weirdness here, and I would've loved to know from what perspective this text is written, as that might explain some of the weirdness. For one thing, this seems at odds with the idea of the Vadeli being a sub-tribe of the Viymorni through Viymorn's son Vadel (although Vadela might be Vadel's mother or something), but more importantly it seems to crash a lot with the generally presented location of the Vadeli as being in the south-west of Glorantha, in and around the Danmalastan-Pamaltela intersection, and around the Mostali lands in particular. The Republic of Zerendel, formed by Zzabur around the tribal holdings of the Enrovalini does not perhaps outright exclude the above version, but it does complicate things a whole lot. Lastly, it seems to imply that it was the "Malkioni" (not sure what to call them at this point) that "fired the first shot", not the Vadeli, and moreover the language used seems to imply - at least to my mind - that the "Malkioni" and Vadeli do not consider each other related at all. Perhaps implying that the whole shebang about "Six Original Peoples" is more of an after-the-fact classification system rather than "mythically accurate" (if such a thing can be said to be. I'm reminded of some research suggesting that the Twelve Tribes of Israel probably did not descend from a common male ancestor, and that the Abraham/Isaac story might be later historical justification for the Israelite kingdom's tribal confederation). I know Revealed Mythologies has been superceded by later iterations of the myths, but this seems a bit of a too radical departure for it to simply be outdated. I suspect it's intentionally different, based on different historical/mythical accounts... but whose? Maybe I'm overthinking it. Also, this leaves us another instance of someone named Malkion mucking about. This is hardly the transcendent intellect presented in the Zzaburi (or Old Hrestoli for that matter) chain of emanation from the One. Nor is it the aloof Malkion the Prophet/Ordelvis who sat in his Citadel of Thought being all-wise and stuff. This is a dude born from sexual union like anyone else, leading a war, it seems, for territory and resources. EDIT: The closest I get is that Revealed Mythologies on pg.6. talkes about Malkion the Founder during the Fourth Action, as "going out among the six original peoples" and "duplicating runes" in Danmalastan. A very sanitizen version if we are to believe the later section on Brithos. That being said, there's nothing preventing a place-bound Malkion the Prophet (Ordelvis, Malkion of the Third Action) from being "reborn" (or emanating) as a baby born to Air and Sea Erasanchula (Engr, Malkion the Founder, ie. Makion of the Fourth Action). If Yahweh or Vishnu can, why not Malkion. Perhaps this is the Malkion the Founder of which Hrestol spoke. A les sympathetic, more prosaic retelling of the ordering of Danmalastan, or the Republic of Zerendel (possibly greatly compressed as far as Gods Age narratives go). Although it does make me think about the oddness surrounding both Malkion and Waertag having so much in common. Heretical thought: Do the Waertagi hold Waertag and Malkion (the Founder or whoever) to be the same person? Wonder how Zzabur thinks about that, if indeed he does. EDIT: Did some editing around the "weirdness" paragraph and added an entirely new paragraph about pg.6.

Is the emanationist theology (or "Malkionology" in reference to Christology) of Invisible God/The One -> Ferbrith -> Kiona -> Malkion etc. a more recent "invention" than what is being talked about here? From the Glorantha website, it seems Zzabur acknowledges these, which lead me to assume that this is an idea of very old provenance. Malkion is both the Invisible God and the Prophet, just at different stages and with different roles/names. What's interesting about this view is that different directions of Malkionism then disapproves of different emanational levels. Brithini Zzaburism disapproves of Malkion the Sacrifice (iirc), Irensavalism disapproves of Malkion the Creator/Makan (ie. Ferbrith or Kiona, depending on whether you consider the 2nd or 3rd action "creation", iirc.) Or should this be seen as a reinterpretation of Malkion the Prophet's God-Time wanderings and teachings put into a larger cosmogenic context? EDIT: Also, I thought Engr was Malkion (the Prophet)'s mother or wife or something?

I get the feeling that an architecture historian would find some of these examples a bit odd for a Bronze Age/Antiquity-centred setting (some of these palaces and forts are from well after 1000 AD, more like 14-1700s, iirc., although I'm not an expert). They certainly look great though. The unifying concept of "onion-domes" in both Indian/Persian-inspired Seshnela and Russian-inspired Akem is pretty neat though.

Eh, personally I find "sir" fine. I mean, if Pentans can be "sultans" it's difficult to argue that "sir" somehow is inappropriate.

I found an response by Greg on a mailing list from 2007 where he states that the "Third Age Loskalmi Church is largely based on Irensavalist beliefs", although he goes on to say that this means they are "not Malkioni" aside from worshipping Malkion the Prophet. I assume by this he was referring to the split in the attitudes towards the Demiurge. https://glorantha.steff.in/digests/WorldofGlorantha/2007/0739.html From what I've come to understand, Irensavalism is basically Gnosticism, in that it sees the creator of the physical world not as an agent of the Godhead/Invisible God, but as a deceiver and an obstacle to true salvation/Joy. By this, I am guessing that what Greg means by Malkioni are more akin to small-o orthodox Christianity, who either sees the Demiurge as the Godhead, or as an agent/emanation of the Godhead/Invisible God. Correct me if I'm wrong here. Also, it's over ten years old so he may have changed his ideas since then, I couldn't say. From my above look, I'd guess it's less Malkion the Prophet/Sacrifice, etc. they see as corrupt, and more Malkion the Law or Ferbrith/Kiona, right? I know this is all made more complicated by the fact that we have several local names for these emanations/stages of Malkion/the Invisible God, eg. the Jrusteli Makan and all that. Sheesh. Nice and clear, thanks. Gotcha.

Watch out, that kind of talk is liable to get you branded as a Riddler.

When I first read the Guide, I got the impression that Loskalm really was the only stronghold of Hrestolism left, and that (New Idealist?) Hrestolism was the only real surviving form. What is the difference between Loskalmi Hrestolism and Hrestolism in other areas? And Men-of-All exist in Rokarism too? Are they simply mounted warrior Talari there?

I was just using the Red Planet as an example by which to show how planets in Glorantha differ from the RW in general. The exact orbital mechanics of Sargash wasn't the focus.

We're talking about the planets only here, really, although the difference between planets and stars in Glorantha is less defined than in the RW. In the RW Mars, a planet, would be a reflective body of mass that could never pass between Earth and Sun. In Glorantha, Shargash, a planet, is a luminous body of mass that can (hypothetically) pass between Earth and Yelm. Byll goes on to question whether these luminous bodies are opaque or not, that's a fair question. Even if they are opaque, then what we get isn't the RW "darkening" or even "blackening" of the sun, but more of a dimming.

I'd say more Hellenic than Sumerian (although the difference might be moot). Lots of mystery cults, occultism and skullduggery - perhaps something akin to how the Greeks (and later Romans) became overly fascinated with Egyptian and Anatolian cults. The city-states feature large differences in governance, and often seek to legitimize *their* form of government based on the fragmentary and lost accounts of the Autarchy. City-leagues joining together to jostle for position. Minor fleet arms race over lake Felster itself. Generally looming fear of Seshnela in the west, if I recall correctly. EDIT: Didn't see Scott-Martin's post. Covers much of the same territory, and gets across the atmosphere really well.

"Extreme religious conservatism" Yeah, about that... *stares at Lightbringer Missionaries, Esrolian Grandmother Earth Revival, Kitori, Empire of Wyrm's Friends' Dragon Cult, Alakoringite Orlanth Rex Cult, Sun Domers, Elmal-Yelmalio Synthesis, and more* That's not too bad a historical dynamism for extreme religious conservatives.

Joerg mentioned this, but I'd just like to add as well: most of the entities in the Gloranthan sky are self-luminous as opposed to RW where they merely are reflective. Therefore they would presumably not "eclipse" the sun in the conventional sense (ie. darken it) even if they passed in front of it.

.... This is a fetish thing now, isn't it?

Perhaps this derives from some pre-Time/pre-Lightbringer Missionary mythology where Humakt swore fealty to Vadrus instead of Orlant. By his association with the Vadrudi gods, Fronelan Humakt gains Vadrudi-aligned abilities. Then, the Lightbringer missionaries comes, mostly convert the remaining Vadrudi to Orlanthism, but for whatever reason, Humakt keeps his Vadrudi-aligned abilities in Fronela and Fronelan-influenced areas. Purely conjecture. I have no idea if this is even possible with how spells and abilities are structure in Glorantha. Just seems mythically and historically possible to me.

Good point on both accounts. Both on history-as-perceived-by-Gloranthans, and more prosaically, that Beast and Dragon are intertwined (or the former arguably derives from the latter). I agree on the point that the more dynamism we get injected into Kralorela, the better. Also, this does remind of the deeper context of the various Western Hykimi organizations (Brotherhood, etc.). Not only were they focal points for Beast Totem groups, and arguably communing with the primal Earth powers (Snake-As-Earth-Guardian is a common theme in the West, after all), but they were accessing or approaching draconic unity between Beast Totems as well. In a way, I think of it as a kind of ritual Reverse-Tower of Babel situation. Makes me wonder whether the Snake Dancers/Serpent Brotherhood weren't simply shamanic in their approach, but possibly mystic as well... and part of me wants to consider how their philosophy compares to those of Kralorelan Dragon Worship and the EWF, respectively. I don't assume they're overly similar, but whatever similarities and contrasts exist are sure to be fascinating.

Continuing my minor probes - I am getting the impression that Greg (at one point, as in no longer, maybe?) imagined that Kralorela had a Beast Totemic past, more accurate a kind of conflict between Beast Totemic and Bird Totemic peoples. (EDIT: Obviously a good chunk of Kralorela had a Beast Totemic past in that we know several populations were converted by the Emperors, I was more digging into the possibility of complex Beast Totemic states/empires). How does this tie into the (current?) model where Kralorela emerged as a draconic system from previous unity with the East as Abzered, which seems to have had a more Solar system (with some of the pre-Time emperors having been equated with Yelm, Aether Primolt, Ezelveztay (or whoever is before Aether, I forget).) The presence of Phoenix Emperors in Abzered (if I remember correctly) in Revealed Mythologies, and the fact that Vrimak has both beastly and celestial aspects seems to open up a possibility of reconciling these visions - but I'm not sure if they were ever intended to be, ie. one being discarded for another. Also - you guys had some talk about how Kralorean Hsunchen/Vrimakites and Western Genertelan Hykimites had some contact? Or at least that the historical documents written by Greg made it seem like they were aware of each other at some point? I know that the God Learners probably got the term "Hsunchen" from the Shan Shan beast totem people, but what about first age or even pre-Time? It's all a bit confusing to me - especially trying to separate the in-universe chronology and the out-of-universe chronology.

I guess both are technically true at once.