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Honestly, this probably belongs over in the HQ forum, as it's REALLY about a specifically-HQ book; it's liable to get more direct and specific attention there. I think @Ian Cooper has said that he has more Glorantha content waiting in the wings; but the push to get the HQ3/SRD finished & published is top priority, and I presume follow-on products will need to be adjusted to the new 3.0 rules and the OGL-fronted publishing paradigm. Maybe Ian will be @at summoned to respond here...?

Well... I presume it will NOT be the BGB, but some new "BRP-SRD" document (possibly with pieces of the BGB within it). We'll have to see how much the new SRD offers bunches of options (of which I presume a standalone RPG will only want to offer a single preferred option for any rule; but hey -- I guess you could just throw the fulltext of a generic system at your specfic setting, and call it a day).

Not to put too fine a point upon it, Rick, but... that's not "on the fence!" 😁 I shall try to remember to avoid "nuChaosium" in the future; sorry to hear enough people are using it that way to leave a sour taste in your mind. ☹️ I am... honestly confused that any "fan" could consider it a pejorative, though! The products coming out -- across the board -- are absolutely great, and clearly an overall improvement. And (as best I can tell, as an interested fan) Chaosium would not have survived without the GreatOldOne/MoonDesign intervention. So both on the creative & business sides, it's a clear win. Well, if you MD folks (who invested your own $$ in setting Chaosium right) are satisfied with how the financial side is working out... that's ample info to keep me satisfied, too! TYVM, again!

I don't deny that -- in many ways -- the barriers to entry are dropping; as you say, PDF/POD/Crowdfunding, the DTRPG creator-fan projects, blogging, podcasting, etc etc etc; all make "getting your foot in the door" and/or "getting your product seen" easier than ever. And (as you also say)... if you wanna get into the market, you've gotta make a start SOMEWHERE. I don't think even the Big Boys in the industry ever just hire game-dev's and writers "cold" with no industry cred. So you need some product, to make your mark, get some fan-buzz or industry-rep or whatever; something for the gamer-geek resume, to launch you toward that dream job. (although I've got to wonder (with things like Prof. Knight's RPG-writing class over at Taylor): might someone from such a program actually be eligible/viable as a new-hire???) I will note, however, that the old "fanzine" culture served many of the same purposes, letting newbie authors wet their feet on a low-pay / no-pay basis, giving them some exposure, letting both fans and devs/publishers see their work. It's not like the blogging and such are actually doing something that's fundamentally NEW... It's just that e-distribution and a global Internet make it easier to find what we each want, and connect with providers of such wanted material. That said... the economics is not really all one way, nor all the other. And "rich person" is clearly hyperbole on my part; apologies if it was overly provocative. Maybe "comfortable hobbyist" is less hyperbolic -- someone who can afford to put in something like a half-time job, for years, with little to no expectations of getting any of their necessities of life from it. On the other side of the equation are the hiring companies, who often exploit that market, whether intentionally or not. Heading up the "F--- that S---" column, there have been (and continue to be) some really abusive actors in the industry. Shadowrun went through a pretty dire period some years ago, of not paying (or grossly delaying payment) on freelance contracts (and it became scandalously clear that they could have paid their freelancers, they just had... "other" priorities); I know they are not alone in this, though I understand they do OK these days. I believe Chaosium itself went through a cashflow problem (rather than a "screw you, I'm building my vacation-house" problem), where some folks didn't get paid... and YES, I am (very much) aware that The Chaosium has been actively soliciting any such previously-unpaid or un-credited contributors, and trying to fulfill any unfulfilled contracts, make every transaction right... I cannot express how profoundly I admire you for doing this! You yourself also acknowledge that some creators don't need to consult a "bottom line" to produce their stuff. People who can undercut ANYONE who's trying to make a living often do so: not by trying to cut out anyone else, just trying to get their own work in front of interested eyes. I'm not saying they are wrong, or bad, or being evil, etc etc etc. But if a Line-Developer has $20K for some part of a project, and one author will do the job for $500 + 1 case of comp-copies, while the other wants 10c/word = $3750 (and the L-D expects both will do equally good work)... doesn't Mr.500 get the job, so there's over $3K "bonus" budget left for art and layout and etc...? Unless the L-D begins to add in considerations like "but 3750 guy has no other job, just writing, and really needs the income, so I'll throw the job his way even though it means less art/etc in the book." ... which is really not the L-D's job! (and anyhow, the L-D isn't likely to know enough about every bidder to equally evaluate everyone's circumstances & offer any sort of "needs-based" consideration (and to reiterate: social-work isn't their F'ing job!)). See this essay: http://briebeau.com/thoughty/2019/06/we-say-fuck-you-pay-me/ Brie (the author) leans in on the disparity for "marginalized" authors, but is pretty up-front about "being underpaid in gaming" is ubiquitous (if not universal), including for the cis-white-dude "privileged" gamer (who mainly has to deal with less of the issue, not none of the issue). The point isn't to make the industry become social workers, but for the industry-standard to be: pay a fair wage on a published scale when hiring, as standard practice. If they were always paying a fair wage (never accepting self-subsidized labor) the issue of the self-subsidized dilettante (and the publisher or L-D as pseudo-social-worker) wouldn't be any sort of issue. A few telling quotations from the essay (see especially the 3rd one): You say, "in the end, great product is great product." I agree... and furthermore I find that the RPG industry is awash in great product these days; enough so that I frankly don't have enough time to play all (or even most) of it ! I called it "astounding and dismaying" quite intentionally! I've seen Chaosium itself tasked by "fans" & critics, with how "expensive / overpriced" some of your products (supposedly) are. Those critics are basing their criticism (at least in part) on the market being shaped by free/cheap content creators (also, of course, there are some grognards whose "feel" of the "appropriate price" was formed in the 70s/80s/whatever). To be explicit: I don't share those critics' POV, and think Chaosium offers excellent value for my dollars spent. But... in general, "the market" asks: why pay market rates / living wage for "great product" when other providers make "equally-great product" on a subsidized/hobbyist basis? There is a LOT more product out on the market than can be accounted for by the number of folks making their living at gaming-production. Industry-wide numbers are notoriously hard to come by, but I've seen some best-estimate numbers suggesting that the RPG industry has the gross revenues to support about 150ish full-time authors at a living wage... but that there are (IIRC) closer to 1000 RPG authors writing. That rather boggles the mind, and I'm trying to envision other jobs (secretary? bookkeeper? retail sales?) where "the industry" only supports about 1 worker in 7... Anyhow, I'm not claiming there are easy answers, nor that The Chaosium is one of the actors sustaining the problem! Just saying that there is a problem... and that it's worth admitting the problem & considering the issues... and even occasionally making some effort to correct things (as noted above, I see that The Chaosium DOES take those extra efforts, for which I'm appreciative!). As a consumer, it IS something I consider, and I DO make some effort (e.g. in what I buy, which companies I'll champion & recommend online) to address issues I care about. Others' MMV.

Hey there... Welcome, Prof. Knight! And kudo's for a great class. A question for you: do you anticipate more/other such classes in your future? More CoC, or might you do other Chaosium products (e.g. for Jonstown Compendium), or consider other publishers' games such as D&D5e, Savage Worlds, etc? Thanks! I hope you stick around here on BRPCentral, whatever the future holds!

I suppose it's worth looking at other systems, too ... GURPS is often the go-to line for historical / semihistorical gaming references, used by other gamers. GURPS Camelot, G. Vikings, G. MiddleAges, G. CelticMyth, G. Robin Hood... Ars Magica is about 500 years too late; but is in many ways a backward-looking game, where the characters often idealize / idolize The Greats who came before, the "giants upon whose shoulders they stand," so many of the ArM supplements may be inspirational for Pendragon-esqe gaming. Realms of Power:Divine speaks not only to Christianity, but also Islam & Judaism, and to religions like Zoroastrianism, the old Roman "Sol Invictus" cult, etc. The older Faerie Realm books (Faeries and Faeries Revised Edition) might offer some value/inspiration, and even the Core Rulebook (for its Virtues & Flaws) -- and the 4e corebook is a free PDF (Warehouse23). And let's not forget the "extended family" of BRP-engine games, from TDM & others. TDM has an extensive "Mythic Britain" line (see also Logres, & Waterlands), not exclusively "Arturian" but inclusive of it. But... I'm really unclear how much your own setting will stay within the "feel" of the Pendragon setting. You may want more high-fantasy elements, Orcish kingdoms which value Strength as their highest Virtue, or Tolkienesque Elves with Virtues like Patience & Wisdom. You may have some Athas-like "wastes" with survival-oriented tribes, where Self-Control is the highest Virtue, alongside Cooperation (because only a group can muster the collective skills & resources to survive). Etc etc etc...?

Well... geez! Given how often I see Mythras praised for layout & clarity (except for the smaller fonts vs aging eyes), TDM's choice is a pretty glowing endorsement. All except for "migratingits" which seems to be some sort of migration-disease. I hope you can get a shot for that, Loz...

I actually DO have a product or two in mind, that I might produce in the manner you are discussing in this thread... One of them would need to be a licensed IP (and I've got no cash to throw at such a license; so it'd be one o' those "passion projects" done strictly for my own enjoyment (though if it got far enough, and was turning out good enough, I might then take my project back to Chaosium and see if THEY thought it was worth -- and they could achieve -- that licensed-IP treatment)). The other... oh, I could license someone's IP, because it's clearly derived/inspired by prior work; but it's a project within a recognizable genre, and no particular "prior work" need be any more a source than any other "prior work," so I can just write to the genre, and be fine. Anyhow... I really DO hope this thread gets plenty of attention ... and participation!

It is indeed a topic worth... uhhh... topicalizing. Of course, there is some risk of a topical becoming anethsitizing, and/or the project sending one towards the Oats & Rye thread by way of Rye, for further anesthesia (I suspect this is a likely conseqence). But, onward! ever onward!

"Icy"? I tend to think of the Yelornans as being relatively passionate, hot-blooded. Not in any erotic sense, just deeply committed to their ideals. But the unicorn/virgin link goes back quite a ways, culturally. Hard to disentangle those, not sure it needs to be done. Star Huntress, Sun-Daughter... Sky/Fire has "purity" as a central tenet, and unicorns~purity is another ancient link. If you're gonna have unicorn riders, best they be virgins. Because a horse with a pointy horn is... frankly, not a unicorn. I'm not saying the tropes don't merit examination, careful handling, maybe some table-talk & session-zero'ing about whether it's a good idea for this game, at this table... But don't make the baby/bathwater mistake! 😁

True enough! That said, there's a fair number of passion-projects and labors-of-love in the gaming-world. I doubt that (for example) @M Helsdon's "Armies and Enemies of Dragon Pass" was guaranteed ANY available market when he began the project... Sometimes -- for amateurs, for new initiatives, etc -- the creator's cost of creating isn't really part of the equation when they consider the question of "making money." This obviously isn't a sustainable business model, or a way for a creative type to keep food on the table & a roof overhead. But the number of really good passion-projects in the gaming world is, frankly, both astounding and dismaying*. * The dismay comes when you realize how much being a creator becomes a "rich person hobby." ** If a bunch of (economically secure) people create works of extremely-high quality, and count their cost of creation at or near zero (because they self-subsidized it via their "real job")... how can someone else, not economically secure, ever hope to make a living at it? That is, why would a customer buy an expensive product from someone making a living wage, vs a cheap (but equally good) product from someone whose living is assured with zero gaming-income? Cents-per-word payments are notoriously poor in gaming (with some notable exceptions), and some publishers have failed to pay, resisted paying, tried to renegotiate downward after the fact, been abominably late, etc etc etc. Some publishers are known to offer first-timers even worse rates. "Take it or leave it" for inadequate pay OFTEN gets "taken" by those same folk who are subsidizing their creative writing with that "real job," and don't really care if they get "paid" a pittance ... or less. ** I still wonder if the cash-infusions that the Moon Design folk (Rick/Jeff/Neil/Michael) brought to Chaosium have ever actually been repaid to them. Despite their undoubted skills and talents that saw the nuChaosium resurrection... there was some cold hard cash that ALSO contributed to the success of the turnaround! None of my business, of course! If any or all of them just regard it as gone in a good cause, or if they're on some "repayment" plan, or if they've long-since been repaid (by the evergreen fountains of Cthulhu and Glorantha) and are now planning their wealthy Scrooge McDuck retirements on tropical beaches with gold-plated lawnchairs... None of it makes any difference in my life.

She was born/created of Her Mother's need, when all the Husband-Protectors were away. The Axe Maidens are just as much Earth-Temple protectresses, as bloody vengeance. And Vinga is as apt to a woman's need for vengeance, as to protect.

There's cheap "stock" and even public-domain art available, but the search for just-the-right-image could be l-o-n-g (and may even prove fruitless in the end). How much is your own time worth to you? If you actually plan to bring it to market, you may want to hire (at least some) freelance artists... and maybe a layout person too.

Presumably; but I guess we'll have to see the specific terms of the license when Chaosium releases it.

Yeah, the Cathars (aka Albigensians) clearly had some of the Manichean concepts in their origins. including dualistic theology, & the idea of spiritual&mental = good / material&physical = evil.

It's not so much RQ that needs SAN rules. It's BRPCentral's "Glorantha" forum that needs SAN rules.

uhhhh.... You want to play a duck served with hollandaise sauce??? Dude, that's just wrong.

Which announcement "just" went out? I mean... I know about the J.C. content via DTRPG, Chaosium's art & templates &c; and the yummy new products available there... But is there something else, something specifically BRP / non-Gloranthan? I'm wondering if a non-Gloranthan / general-BRP version of the MR/JC/etc might be coming... So if someone wanted (for example) to do a BRP product -- up to and including a full RPG -- they could use this channel in lieu of either doing a proposal/publication cycle through Chaosium, or a license of theirs? Seems like a natural replacement-for / evolution-of the old "Monographs" line.

This specific case also strikes me as Babeester-Gor-like... I could see some sort of Vinga / B.Gor as an ambiguous or even formally dualistic thing.

The concepts formally entered early Christianity, and were known as "the Manichean Heresy." Augustine & others addressed it. A dualistic theology, where God isn't necessarily more powerful than the Devil, where the mental/spiritual is "Good" and Godly, the material/physical is "Evil" and of the Devil. Some of this perspective has clearly persisted in Christian & related thought, up through the modern era (q.v. the famous Kevin Bacon docudrama Footloose, among other sources).

Thank you @MOB and @Jeff! One quick query, if you don't mind; and one comment/suggestion: Q: Is this version going to be a big & comprehensive version (BGB-scale / hundreds of pages), or more of a small "Essentials" version (32-96(ish) pages.. not that an online doc has to follow traditional print-publishing "signatures," of course!) , or somewhere in between? Comment: One option that might work well is to release "oglBRP" as a succession of versions; an initial "Essentials" version, oglBRP-1.0; then an expanded version, oglBRP-2.0; then a comprehensive version, oglBRP-3.0 (or 1.0/1.1/1.2; allowing for a total-revision oglBRP-2; or whatever). Add steps/versions as needed, as Chaosium resources are available. (OTOH, above I see MOB telling us that it has been "a long time in development," so maybe the choice to do something like I suggest is long-past, and either has or has not been pursued.) In any case: TYVM once again !!!

The whole BGB was all about different options for BRP play, after all. Nobody every uses all of the BGB in one game... some of the options are incompatible! But clearly there's enough love (and hate) for the CoC7 innovations that many of those should become options in a nuBRP product.

I think it's worth looking at "civil" vs. "urban" here. "Civil" refers to rule of law (or tradition; but external, commonly-understood rules), an eye to the common weal (and also to polite behavior, "civil" behavior). "Urban" merely requires certain kinds of organization. You need food in the cities, and fresh water. You need waste-disposal. Much of the city is inward-turning -- goods and services oriented toward the city-dwellers & city life -- but there still needs enough outer facing to get the resources, and dispose of the waste, and enough organization for all those in-town goods and services to keep the internals of the city operating smoothly. A very "urbanized" place need not be very "civilized" -- it can be ruled by a deranged despot whose whims are law; so long as it's organized enough to sustain the necessities. Similarly, a "civilized" place need not be at all "urbanized" -- rural/agricultural places work just as well under rule of law & with politeness, as they do when ruled by the moods of a dictator.

1. Sunhawk, maybe? Also called "vrok" IIRC. 2. Horse, maybe? -- In Glorantha, the "horse" is, mythologically, a kind of bird(!(wtf?!)), being descended from King Hippogriff via a series of tragic maimings. (And isn't that a grand image: a newborn infant arriving at the stead laying upon the broad back of a horse). I think that ANY "ill-omened" child (arriving with strong & inborn Runic ties to Darkness, Sky, Disorder, etc) will (mostly) be given special attention as they grow, to try to inculcate loyalty despite their differences (also, any such "mythological" birth (e.g. arriving via some sort of messenger-beast, or in a reed basket from a river, etc) is likely to have some expectations that their adult selves will have a similarly-mythological destiny), or maybe fostered to an appropriate family (e.g. a Dark-Rune babe to a Dark Orlanthi tribe). That's "mostly" getting special attention or fosterage... Alternatively, IMHO, they may (occasionally) instead be left exposed to die (as per the Greco-Roman/Biblical/Mesopotamian/etc legends), somewhere out in the wilds. Which happens will depend mostly on the local tribe's own habits & predilection, and/or their current state of travails. I presume there are a few such fosterlings -- humans raised by Trolls, or by Beastfolk, or etc; likely to come back to humankind in dramatic and discomforting ways. I think it's the outward/physical manifestation of their inner lack of impulse-control: myths are big on inner realities manifesting outwardly (it's a kind of primitive POV... but then, Glorantha is a very primal & mythical kind of world). As noted above, "Trickster" isn't a ha-ha-joke "prankster." When Trickster acts, people can DIE from those pranks; whole tribes may die; the very Gods can die! Trickster characters are dangerous, every bit as dangerous as Orlanth or Humakt characters... but with less restraint or discretion as to who suffers the danger. And above all, Tricksters are a danger to themselves! Welcome to Glorantha! "More than a little weird" is the norm. Your Glorantha May (Will!) Vary.

I suppose it's possible that Jeff will come back and revisit the topic in-thread... Probably a substative new thread for the nuBRP, however: the first few pages of THAT thread are hardly a good prologue for discussion of the nuBRP initiative! 😁 Once there actually IS a... y'know... a nuBRP document being released under Chaosium-OGL. Because until that doc&OGL happen, it remains the case (as per that thread) that "... there is no OGL for BRP..." 😋 IIRC, Jeff said that Chaosium's OGL(ish) license for HQ/QW is done... I don't know if the BRP license will differ, or need reconsideration of any kind. And, of course, Chaosium still needs to actually create the nuBRP document.