dumuzid

Right, I forgot the Olodo weren't autochthonous to Jrustela, they arrived via Waertagi dragon-ship in the Dawn Age from Slontos for a number of causes. Really shouldn't have surprised me that the author of "Beautiful Jrustela" downplayed their society.

The Olodo were Malkioni city-builders before the Seshnegi colonists arrived? My impression from Middle Sea Empire was of non-urban animists or theists in the rugged interior of the island, whose culture was absorbed and mostly erased by the expanding colonists.

The God Learners' monomyth is also a nice decades-long joke at the expense of Joseph Campbell, him of The Hero with a Thousand Faces, which I appreciate a great deal.

I'm familiar with that reference. Here's the text for the thread, from p. 38 of the 2006 edition: Note how the term "God Learner study groups" is in quotation marks. There were several independent sorcerous societies coming together in the Jrusteli city-states in the 6th, 7th and 8th centuries, like the New Order named there, and the Free Men of the Sea who, after many reverses, ultimately broke the Waertagi monopoly on ocean travel. These sorcerous orders operated more or less independently, though after 646 their practices were guided by a unifying liturgy in the Abiding Book. The only group that ever called themselves the God Learners was the God Learner Collective, founded centuries into the history of the Middle Sea Empire in 845, a union of sorcerous societies dedicated to exploring (and manipulating) the God Plane. The main point that divides the true God Learners from their predecessor traditions is the God Learner emphasis on the monomyth, the idea that all theistic myth springs from a common and singular source. They were trying to break down theistic magic into its barest, most functional essentials in order to speed their heroquesting. It's this monomyth approach that led to the arrogant, exploitative treatment of the God Plane by the God Learners. Predecessor groups all manipulated forces from the God Plane--Malkioni have been heroquesting since Hrestol himself just after the Dawn--but they'd usually either abided by the old Arkati dictum, "No questing without respect or humility," or been destroyed by the forces they sought to manipulate. Presumably earlier Jrustelan henotheists were more respectful, but the God Learners lost that respect for the mythic world and simultaneously marshaled the power to avoid being immediately destroyed for their arrogance. They quested cynically and destructively into the God Plane, leading to disastrous experiments like the Goddess Switch. It's not precisely clear when the monomyth entered Jrusteli sorcerous practice, but it must've been some time after the Abiding Book was first written and promulgated because by the 9th century there was a faction in Jrusteli Malkionism called the Doctrine of Inerrant Delay (Abiding Book [RQ2] p. 7) whose whole deal was lamenting that the Book did not emerge a century later to solve the thorny theological question of the importance of converting the 'pagans' within the Middle Sea Empire to monotheism.

The God Learners as such didn't emerge until fairly late in Jrusteli's pre-Closing history anyway. The Abiding Book didn't appear to/wasn't written by the Jrusteli magi until the 600s. Even then the God Learners don't really become a thing until generations later, after the Return to Rightness Crusade and the New Order of Sorcery laid the groundwork. Before then the Jrusteli magicians weren't powergamers, they were just zzaburi doing their normal thing among Malkioni societies that practiced a greater or lesser degree of henotheism based on local needs and inclinations. If the Jrusteli islanders worshiped Wachaza as their war god after the Dawn it's not so different from the way Seshnelans started worshiping Seshna Likita and had their line of sacred serpent-tailed kings in the First Age. Rather than the Jrusteli wizards being munchkins from the start, the progression I see begins with the Dawn Age Seshnelan settlers of Jrusteli taking that propensity for henotheistic Malkionism to their colonies, the zzaburi grumbling about the people acknowledging imperfect Erasanchula but getting by anyway. The capacity to recognize gods and spirits as other than devils probably helped the settlers come to terms with the original human inhabitants of Jrustela. Then the Abiding Book comes along, uniting the Jrusteli magi in ways they'd never had before. The Abiding Book took a much firmer line on dealing with gods and spirits, requiring purer observance of monotheism among all the castes, but the Jrusteli would've still had access to the sacred stories their culture picked up before the reformation. These stories return to prominence as paths to power for increasingly ambitious Malkioni sorcerous groups like the Free Men of the Sea, who seem to have directly weaponized old Jrusteli water myths to pull off the sorcerous inferno at the Battle of Tanian's Victory. From that point on the Jrusteli/Western/Middle Sea Empire approach to theistic myths and the God Plane only grows more cynical and exploitative, but it need not have always been so.

Then there's the Lunar Empire, where in true pseudo-Roman fashion holding certain religious posts is a part of holding positions in the state bureaucracy.

Yeah, it struck me as I was writing that post that it seems like what the Vadeli probably believe, minus the Fonritian emphasis on Ompalam.

I figured it had something to do with the Necklace of Pamalt that Garangordos sort-of recreated with his Glorious Ones. The way Zzabur puts it, the rune entities of the Maseren were the first 'True Beings'; Zzabur claims to be one himself, and claims the authority to instruct mortals on the nature of the cosmos because he is a 'product of the Maseren,' while mortals are products of the Paseren, the 4th Action/Storm Age. I know this isn't Tolkien, and linguistic/phonetic similarities in Gloranthan subjects are usually just that, but my interpretation would be that as the only free people in Fonrit, the masirin are claiming to be the only True Beings there (or anywhere else, probably) in the Malkioni sense, which would justify them within that framework in enslaving gods, spirits and other mortals as imperfect emanations of themselves.

Does anyone know if there's meant to be a connection between the masirin class of Fonrit and Maseren, the Malkioni philosophical term for the Third Action/Golden Age?

slightly more seriously, ol Sheng Seleris might give it a shot if he gets into a tight enough spot in the Hero Wars. If he thought he and his Shadow Moon Empire could survive the fallout he might at least try to weaken the Block's hold on Wakboth, propping it up so to speak, in order to create a second front for his Sartarite antagonists

He, Zzabur, did/does it.

Of course, elsewhere in the sourcebook (p. 80) Annilla's theogony is given as "a daughter of a Sea God and a Darkness goddess," so who's to say Xeotam's the final authority? I've read Malkioni takes on the creation that don't even recognize Darkness as a distinct element. The genealogy of Darkness gods is a murky subject at best.

Sure, this is is good a time as any to expand on those details. The community is founded around a cluster of powerful magical sites aligned to Earth, Storm, Darkness and Time. It was founded by the victors of a Unity Battle staged to destroy the chaotic monsters squatting in the ruins the community is being built over and within. The community's main components are: 1) Trolls and trollkin - the trolls are mostly from the Shadow Plateau, and the trollkin are legally and magically considered full trolls. 2) Beast Valley beastfolk - centaurs, satyrs, minotaurs 3) Humans - mostly Old Tarshite Gorians, but many Sartarite settlers are anticipated. 4) Elves - mostly green, some brown, already used to living alongside humans. Its reason for existence is to protect and promote mutual access to its magical sites for the many societies that value them. The place has only been settled a matter of weeks at this point, but it's shaping up to be the site of four or five important activities: 1) Pilgrimage. It holds many important places that have been unavailable to the people interested in them for centuries, and efforts to promote that availability were very successful in the weeks after the community was founded. 2) Trade. The settlement is ideally situated between several major economic centers and has sufficiently agreeable relations with its neighbors to make previously unrealized trade routes possible. 3) Agriculture. The community can call on powerful Ernalda and Flamal/Aldrya magic, and conditions are ripe in the next Sea season for an enormously plentiful harvest. 4) Mercenaries. Many of the founders of the community were brought into the Unity Army as mercenaries and settled with their followers, but remain interested in work outside the community. The trollkin include many professional mercenaries initiated into the Argan Argar and Humakt cults, and there's been talk with the ducks of Duck Point about hiring them out to fight in the marshes. 5) Unorthodox magic. The community has access to a blend of Earth, Darkness, Storm and Plant traditions that is pretty uncommon in the Third Age, and even has connections to the House of Black Arkat and special resources for heroquesting. The community already has plans to coordinate some of its upcoming Sacred Time ceremonies with the Colymar tribe, from which its Sartarite settlers are expected to come. Almost every society neighboring the new community contributed someone or something to support the Unity Army that won its settlement site, and those people maintain good relations with their former homes. Thus far it's managed to remain independent of the main regional powers, and that independence/neutrality is important to its trading position. The community is likely to be one of many parties involved in war with Lunar Tarsh in the next year. In rough order of precedence: Ernalda, Arachne Solara, Kyger Litor, Argan Argar, Maran Gor, Babeester Gor, Humakt, and an array of troll gods that includes Xiolah Umbar and Zorak Zoran. Orlanth and the rest of the Storm Tribe will rise in prominence as soon as the first new settlers arrive. The community wyter has been integrated into all their seasonal rites, and this rainbow religious calendar promises to keep it flush with mp. The main drawback of the place is that it's in ruins, though its Sartarite neighbors have committed to sending craftspeople in the next year to assist with rebuilding. That doesn't matter so much to the trolls and beastfolk, and the elves have already started reforesting, but for human inhabitants there's some grandiose ruins but nothing in terms of tilled fields or well-insulated houses. My character intends to change this by attempting the Wooing of Esrola heroquest during Sacred Time with the goal of harnessing the climax of the myth, when Argan Argar forced Lodril to build the Palace of Black Glass. This will be the first heroquest we take the community wyter on.

After several delays the campaign that prompted this thread has met again, and I now have full stats for the community wyter: Dancer in the Dark: Wyter of Ashen Rise Pow 28 Int 14 Cha 11 MP: 21/21 RP: Kyger Lytor: 4/4 Arachne Solara: 3/3 Form: Spider with snake legs Seasonal Holy Day: Godday, Harmony week (all seasons) Focus: Shadowy Bronze Spear Runes: Darkness: 90% Harmony: 80% Spirit: 60% Passions: Love(Ashen Rise) 70% Rune magic: Absorption Attack Soul Bless Champion Darksee Dismiss Magic Soul Sight Spirit magic: Befuddle Demoralize Heal Countermagic Extinguish Vigor Slow Dullblade Darkwall We're about to take it heroquesting with us during the Sacred Time rites of 1626-27. There's a lot of ways I can see the wyter's powers being put to beneficial use for the community, but the most obvious play to me would be to use the Wyter's power to extend its rune magic to multiple targets to hit a whole team or raiding party with Bless Champion before layering on protective spells. The wyter also has access to its priest's (my character's) Argan Argar magic, which includes the full common rune magic list. The community is a mix of several species; using the wyter's multi-target ability to bless a bunch of characters with a season-long Extended Darksee would let members of the community not already gifted with Darksense perceive through Darkwalls and fight in lightless conditions just as well as the trolls through a whole campaign. The magic-sharing goes two ways of course: now my character knows a bunch of useful spirit magic and Darkness rune magic he wouldn't have access to through just Argan Argar. One of the synergies this creates is Attack Soul: he has an even stronger Darkness rune than the wyter to cast the spell, and is highly effective in Spirit Combat thanks to a POW 4 support crystal. Being able to engage in Spirit Combat with material foes without Discorporating is a bit of a game-changer. Anyone have thoughts on how to use this wyter to best advantage, now that its traits are largely known?

Not if the brothers share in a stormy victory feast while they recuperate, the truly Darkness way to do things.

At this point in the myth, rather than Alkoth/Tolat and the Underworld Defender fusing, I'd have Xiolah Umbar emerge from the shadows, clicking her Darksense disapprovingly. "Brothers, brothers, haven't we talked about what happens when you fight each other?" she'd say, as she puts Shargash and the Underworld Defender, Zorak Zoran, into healing trances.

So, something I noticed while thumbing through the Sourcebook that no one's mentioned here: Tolat meaning Shargash, of course. So Shargash and Annilla are supposed to be Yelm's children by Xentha? Yelm and Xentha conceived Shargash in the Underworld? Does anyone know of a source for the origins of Tolat and Annilla?

Is there any more detail to be had on how Broyan died?

it sounds like an excellent book but i am too busy being astonished by that cover

That's an excellent point. Strictly speaking, there's no gender restrictions on the Babeester Gor or Maran Gor cult writeups in RQ:G either, and frankly I think less hard and fast gender restrictions on cults is a good thing. Karrg's sons's specialize in being warrior leaders, trolls who lead the clan's warrior's beyond the settlement. Vaneekara is the patroness of female troll warriors generally but her specialization is throwing weapons and slings, she's the goddess as skirmishers. Both Karrg and Vaneekara are usually subcults of Kyger Litor rather than independent cults, and presumably KL initiates would gravitate towards whichever ancestral warrior model best suited their aptitudes.

No, that's an entirely valid interpretation. Remember that there's nothing like a unified Eurmal priesthood, every shrine is its own Trickster shrine with its own set of stories (and related spread of magic) and its own particular idea about what being a 'trickster' means in the world. As long as you're tricking people somehow, a 'wrong way to be a Eurmali' is sort of a fake idea!

Entirely likely. I would not be surprised if there's a point in a successful male troll's ascent in the KL hierarchy where they have to make a choice between joining the Karrg's Sons or transitioning gender to fully embrace KL's mysteries. Presumably that magic is attended by a representative of Jeset, the ferrytroll of the underworld, to facilitate the change.

Seconded. I've never seen much about Flesh Man either. He's an elusive figure.

Could be subject to change with the forthcoming cults book, but the Guide gives Shargash's runes as Disorder, Fire and Death. Zorak Zoran's, per the RQ:G Bestiary, are Darkness, Death and Disorder. Compared to Eurmal's Disorder, Illusion and Movement, they both are a fair bit more nihilistic than Eurmal. But I'd say that difference goes two ways: Eurmal wasn't the guy to actually wield death, but he stole it again and again and gave it to others. He enjoys transgression, and fooling people, and never sticks around to really deal with the aftermath if he can avoid it. I think what the transgression results in: a bucket of water tipping onto an over-proud swordthane's head as they enter a room, a merchant overcharging the tula exposed as a fraud, or a cherished hero murdered via practical joke, is less important to Eurmal than the trickery that went into the deed. Granted, using ZZ or Shargash in his jokes always resulted in pretty spectacular outcomes for Eurmal, like getting Flamal killed in the Darkness.

I needed to look this up but that...is exactly what they are, as it happens. Here's the relevant text from the write-up for Jakaboom's cult in Unspoken Word #4: Trolls of Glorantha, (Heroquest rules, not Runequest) So, yes. Jakaboom was the troll who first discovered the Dehore tradition, and probably refined the Korasting tradition too. Trolls who are already full shamans initiate into her cult to learn the 'graduate-level' troll shamanism secrets, including the deep songs of power.