The Waertagi

[Gallowglass]

Lately I've been thinking about the Waertagi, and the overall role that they will play in the Hero Wars. Most of my info on their big comeback is from the Guide, p. 424 in the Seshnela chapter. This little section describes a naval conflict with Nolos and Pasos, and then implies a bigger struggle with the Wolf Pirates later on. Their reappearance in Glorantha will obviously shake things up, I'm just wondering how much. Here are my more specific questions-

How many dragon ships, and smaller vessels, return from Magasta's Pool? Is it just one? Several? I remember reading that more than one went down the whirlpool when the Closing happened. It seems unlikely that they would have built more during their stay in the Underworld, but who knows. Anything can happen down there! 

Following that question about ships, what does the overall population of returned Waertagi look like? The have essentially been on a prolonged heroquest on the Black Ocean for hundreds of years. Maybe none of them have aged since then, or maybe there are new generations that were born in the darkness. I kind of prefer the former option for some reason. 

What does the Waertagi's return mean for Sog City? My understanding was that they were the original rulers, and the Brithini were allied caretakers. I think the Guide also implies that the people in Sog will have repaired the old dry-dock by the time the Waertagi come back. Their return is also presumably a really BIG deal for Sog's own Waertagi population. These poor schmucks have been stranded in the city for... basically a millennium. Now their legendary kinfolk have returned with actual dragon ships. Most of them will probably want to leave and join their people. 

Finally, what does the return of the Waertagi mean for the other naval powers in Glorantha? We know the Wolf Pirates will clash with them, but what about the Esrolians? Fonrit and Umathela? In ancient times, they sought total control and dominance of the oceans, so I assume that their goal would be to re-establish that dominance. 

Edited November 10, 2019 by Gallowglass

[Sir_Godspeed]

2 hours ago, Gallowglass said:

Finally, what does the return of the Waertagi mean for the other naval powers in Glorantha? We know the Wolf Pirates will clash with them, but what about the Esrolians? Fonrit and Umathela? In ancient times, they sought total control and dominance of the oceans, so I assume that would be their goal would be to re-establish that dominance. 

Isn't there some overall Hero Wars plot with the Waertagi recruiting a bunch of non-Waertagi allies and the murdering them to finish some kind of ritual? I seem to remember that from somewhere.

[Gallowglass]

34 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Isn't there some overall Hero Wars plot with the Waertagi recruiting a bunch of non-Waertagi allies and the murdering them to finish some kind of ritual? I seem to remember that from somewhere.

Same page in the Guide, that’s apparently how they find Brithos and bring the Brithini back to the mundane world. Bunch of jerks.

[Sir_Godspeed]

1 hour ago, Gallowglass said:

Same page in the Guide, that’s apparently how they find Brithos and bring the Brithini back to the mundane world. Bunch of jerks.

Gotcha.

Looks like their alliance is still in effect, then.

[metcalph]

According to the Guide there are 50 Dragonships at the Dawn p465.  That probably excludes the one that Vogath Strongman threw onto the Shadow Plateau or the one at Sog's Ruins (Guide p458)

They only faced two challenges - one against Mokato and the other against Jrustela.

There's no indication of how many dragonships lost to Mokato but that since they sent all their fighting ships there suggests they may have lost one or two.  The Guide on p503 says the Jrusteli faced nearly all of fifty ships

Most of the Waertagi city-ships were then destroyed in the Sea of Flame, which suggests at least thirty.  Some survived since we have "several" that were driving aboard by the Closing and another "several" that sailed down Magasta's Pool.  The Guide complicates this on p137 by saying that the Weartagi dragonships attacking the God Learners were vomitted up from the sea of the dead.  

Three were wrecked on the Edrenlin Isles in Maslo (Guide p605).  There doesn't seem to be one at Sog City drydocks (contrary to the How the West was One Freeform).  One or two may be on the Dario Istos isles in the Togaro Sea based on a chart in the RQ3 Glorantha Bestiary.  One may have lnaded in Afadjann due to the presence of Waertagi at Temissrah (Guide p572)

[Gallowglass]

It's probably safe to assume that by 1625, or whenever the Waertagi actually come back, there is more than one dragon ship floating around, and a small fleet of Fastships for each one. 

Re-reading the Waertagi section in the Guide has been interesting, because it gives a lot of detail on how they actually fight at sea. They seem to rely heavily on magic, and using allies like sea monsters, elementals, and merfolk. At first I was thinking that a massive city ship would not be very useful in a naval engagement, but when you consider that the ship itself is a very potent magical resource (enslaved dragon spirit), it makes more sense. Still, if the Waertagi have any kind of weakness, it seems to be that their Fastships are kind of flimsy, and they may or may not have siege weapons fitted to their ships. 

[Sir_Godspeed]

I'd imagine that the Dragonships function, at least in part, like gigantic bronze age aircraft carrier, just with smaller ships instead. This makes the Waertagi incredibly maneuverable (who else can refit refit, restock and so on on the high seas?). Potent magic and sea-folk allies comes in addition, of course.

[EricW]

37 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I'd imagine that the Dragonships function, at least in part, like gigantic bronze age aircraft carrier, just with smaller ships instead. This makes the Waertagi incredibly maneuverable (who else can refit refit, restock and so on on the high seas?). Potent magic and sea-folk allies comes in addition, of course.

Perhaps the Waertagi were lost at sea like everyone else on the water when Zzabur unleashed his curse, but managed to survive centuries at sea, using their repair magic and the sheer scale of and resources available on their dragonships.

[Joerg]

Basically, there are two types of Waertagi - those went to the seas of Hell, and those who were stranded in places like Edrenlin or Sog City, or possibly places like grounded ships like in the fragment Aftal the Waertagi (one of the few pieces not reprinted from Missing Lands in the Guide).

Those who survived on the surface may not necessarily share the zeal of their hell-respawned brethren (which is one reason why I thought that the Beysib in Refuge would be Waertagi if you played that setting in Glorantha).

For the Hell-sailing ones, this may be their second return. Apparently there were Waertagi ships involved in the sinking of Jrustela.

Nothing is ever going to come out of Magasta's Pool - hopefully, as that is where the Chaos Rift is sealed in. The Waertagi re-emerge on Sramak's River, possibly around the same place that connects to Lorion's celestial river (described in Eleven Lights). That's where Umiliath re-emerged, the biggest of the Firebergs remaining after the Battle of Tanian's Victory.

 

[Gallowglass]

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

Those who survived on the surface may not necessarily share the zeal of their hell-respawned brethren (which is one reason why I thought that the Beysib in Refuge would be Waertagi if you played that setting in Glorantha).

 

The Waertagi in Edrenlin have been trying to repair their ships, which suggests that they seek to return to the old lifestyle of their people. The people in Sog City may be a different story. They have no dragon ships to repair, and they have been stuck there since the Second Age. We don't know exactly how or why the Waertagi ended up permanently in Sog. My assumption was that there were always some of them there between voyages. When the Jrusteli took control of Sog City, it was their own bad luck that they happened to be there then. I think this was around 725 (p. 133 GtG) when the Kingdom of Frontem was founded. 900 or so years is a very, very long time to be stuck in one place. Their culture, language, and beliefs have probably diverged a lot. The original way of life to the Sog Waertagi has likely become the stuff of legend.

In the 1600's I can imagine that some young folks would jump at the chance to join their legendary brethren on the high seas. But it's just as easy to imagine some crusty old elders adopting an attitude of, "This is the only home we've ever known! It may be cold, it may be ruled by despotic OCD wizards, but it's home and we're not leaving!" 

I'm wondering what the culmination of the whole "Cult of the Ship and the City" plot hook is supposed to be (p. 215 GtG). This must have something to do with the underworld Waertagi coming back. They have dragon ships, and they need a dry-dock. They may be the ones responsible for all the recurring dreams and visions. The pessimistic explanation is that they also need sacrificial victims to find lost Brithos, and they end up getting most of them from Sog City. 

7 hours ago, Joerg said:

Nothing is ever going to come out of Magasta's Pool - hopefully, as that is where the Chaos Rift is sealed in. The Waertagi re-emerge on Sramak's River, possibly around the same place that connects to Lorion's celestial river (described in Eleven Lights). That's where Umiliath re-emerged, the biggest of the Firebergs remaining after the Battle of Tanian's Victory.

 

I admit that I can't find any reference to ships sailing out of the whirlpool. I just thought that was the only way to get from the Black Ocean to the surface. I'm fuzzy on my mythic geography. 

[Qizilbashwoman]

Do uh we think the Hell Waertagi are going to be slightly changed by their experience

[Sir_Godspeed]

2 hours ago, Gallowglass said:

I admit that I can't find any reference to ships sailing out of the whirlpool. I just thought that was the only way to get from the Black Ocean to the surface. I'm fuzzy on my mythic geography. 

Errinoru sailed down the whirlpool and returned by sea. I'm not sure if he came back up again, or if he took the other way around - ie. via the Outer Worlds' River of Ssramak.

[Gallowglass]

1 hour ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

 

Do uh we think the Hell Waertagi are going to be slightly changed by their experience

 

Definitely, but I think how much they are changed depends on if they are the original crews that escaped to Hell in the Second Age, or if they had descendants who have now returned. 
 

Either way they’ve been outside of Time for hundreds of years, but in the first scenario they will have memories of the old world. In the latter scenario they will have only known a lightless world of death, sea monsters, and a diet of whatever they can catch in the Black Ocean, which is likely not healthy or wholesome. 

I prefer the the returnees being the same people from the Second Age, because otherwise it means the Waertagi as they are described in the Guide are truly extinct. All that remain are sad maroons and crazy Hell people. I mean... Hell people are cool too I guess. 

[metcalph]

1 hour ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Errinoru sailed down the whirlpool and returned by sea. I'm not sure if he came back up again, or if he took the other way around - ie. via the Outer Worlds' River of Ssramak.

A new star appeared in the Sky and his ship splashed down in the Maslo Sea.  More like the Blue Moon path than Sramak's River or sailing out of the pool.

[soltakss]

16 hours ago, Gallowglass said:

It's probably safe to assume that by 1625, or whenever the Waertagi actually come back, there is more than one dragon ship floating around, and a small fleet of Fastships for each one. 

I'm not sure about that. as far as I can remember, all the Waertagi Dragonships that could joined together in great rafts and sailed down Magasta's Pool to avoid the effects of the Closing. They must have known a heroQuest to be able to do so, otherwise it would have been either an act of mass suicide or desperation. Of course, some rafts might have stayed on the surface, unaffected by the Closing, as their great rafts of ships somehow protected them from the Closing, perhaps by making them islands not ships.

I doubt whether individual Dragonships survived intact, as we don't seem to have any records of them. However, I am not sure.

15 hours ago, EricW said:

Perhaps the Waertagi were lost at sea like everyone else on the water when Zzabur unleashed his curse, but managed to survive centuries at sea, using their repair magic and the sheer scale of and resources available on their dragonships.

That's how I could see a Dragonraft working. It effectively becomes an island where Waertagi can work, rest and play, waiting out the Closing.

16 hours ago, Gallowglass said:

Re-reading the Waertagi section in the Guide has been interesting, because it gives a lot of detail on how they actually fight at sea. They seem to rely heavily on magic, and using allies like sea monsters, elementals, and merfolk. At first I was thinking that a massive city ship would not be very useful in a naval engagement, but when you consider that the ship itself is a very potent magical resource (enslaved dragon spirit), it makes more sense. Still, if the Waertagi have any kind of weakness, it seems to be that their Fastships are kind of flimsy, and they may or may not have siege weapons fitted to their ships. 

They used a combination of Malkioni and Mermen worship, using Malkioni Sorcery and worshipping the deities of the Sea. So, their prime wargod is Wachaza and they have power over the monsters of the sea. Their Dragonships are True Dragons and are powerful in themselves, albeit they are dead. Their Fastships are about the same as other ships, but I don;t have the Heroes magazine to hand, where they appear.

12 hours ago, Joerg said:

Those who survived on the surface may not necessarily share the zeal of their hell-respawned brethren (which is one reason why I thought that the Beysib in Refuge would be Waertagi if you played that setting in Glorantha).

Oh, good call, I hadn't thought of that.

22 hours ago, Gallowglass said:

Following that question about ships, what does the overall population of returned Waertagi look like? The have essentially been on a prolonged heroquest on the Black Ocean for hundreds of years. Maybe none of them have aged since then, or maybe there are new generations that were born in the darkness. I kind of prefer the former option for some reason. 

and

4 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Do uh we think the Hell Waertagi are going to be slightly changed by their experience

I think the Waertagi who went into Magasta's Pool aged normally and died. Then they didn't stay dead and became undead, thus acting as a number of extra crews.

I can't remember, are the Waertagi immortal like the Brithini unless they break their caste laws? If so, the number of undead Waertagi would be low, if not then might be higher.

this is for several reasons - The Waertagi worship both Wachaza and Robber, both deities loosely associated with Darkess, although RQG might not allow mixed elemental runes, and hence Undead and I like the idea of the Waertagi Dragonships coming back with a mixed living and undead crew.

23 minutes ago, metcalph said:

A new star appeared in the Sky and his ship splashed down in the Maslo Sea.  More like the Blue Moon path than Sramak's River or sailing out of the pool.

I love the idea of a Dragonship sailing down the Skyfall or just dropping from the Sky and landing near some PCs on a ship.

[Gallowglass]

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

I can't remember, are the Waertagi immortal like the Brithini unless they break their caste laws? If so, the number of undead Waertagi would be low, if not then might be higher.

I don’t think it says that anywhere, and I would think their worship of gods prohibits immortality. I was thinking the Waertagi in Hell may have experienced the passage of time differently in the underworld. For them, only a few subjective years, weeks, or even days may have passed. Would you age in the underworld? I thought just being there meant you were effectively dead. 

[Sir_Godspeed]

1 hour ago, Gallowglass said:

I don’t think it says that anywhere, and I would think their worship of gods prohibits immortality. I was thinking the Waertagi in Hell may have experienced the passage of time differently in the underworld. For them, only a few subjective years, weeks, or even days may have passed. Would you age in the underworld? I thought just being there meant you were effectively dead. 

I don't think we have any cases of people aging and dying in the Underworld, but I could be wrong.

[EricW]

Given the sun passes through the underworld every night I think there is a good case for saying the underworld experiences time in the same way as the surface world, at least some parts of it do. Though I wonder if the underworld is really a single place; arguably there are different regions which might obey different rules. We have examples like Lunar hell created by the goddess, which is a place outside the cosmos yet still somehow accessible for those willing to dare the deepest parts of the underworld (ref King of Sartar).

[Sir_Godspeed]

19 minutes ago, EricW said:

arguably there are different regions which might obey different rules.

I'd say there almost certainly are.

[Joerg]

 

 

13 hours ago, Gallowglass said:

The Waertagi in Edrenlin have been trying to repair their ships, which suggests that they seek to return to the old lifestyle of their people.

To repair their ships, they would need to kill Sea Dragons for their material.

13 hours ago, Gallowglass said:

The people in Sog City may be a different story. They have no dragon ships to repair, and they have been stuck there since the Second Age.

Or since the Ban, if they were riverine Waertagi sailing the Janube. No idea what became of those on the Sweet Sea or the Poralistor.

 

13 hours ago, Gallowglass said:

We don't know exactly how or why the Waertagi ended up permanently in Sog. My assumption was that there were always some of them there between voyages. When the Jrusteli took control of Sog City, it was their own bad luck that they happened to be there then. I think this was around 725 (p. 133 GtG) when the Kingdom of Frontem was founded. 900 or so years is a very, very long time to be stuck in one place. Their culture, language, and beliefs have probably diverged a lot. The original way of life to the Sog Waertagi has likely become the stuff of legend.

Some may have missed the Battle of Tanian's Victory. It is possible that another portion of the Waertagi survived in Old Trade on Old Brithos, and that they were allowed to operate some sort of shuttle service between Brithos and Sog and Arolanit on lesser vessels (probably not made of Sea Dragons)

13 hours ago, Gallowglass said:

In the 1600's I can imagine that some young folks would jump at the chance to join their legendary brethren on the high seas. But it's just as easy to imagine some crusty old elders adopting an attitude of, "This is the only home we've ever known! It may be cold, it may be ruled by despotic OCD wizards, but it's home and we're not leaving!" 

The returnees from Hell are easily the equivalent of the undead crew members of the Black Pearl or Davy Jones. and joining their ranks as a volunteer needs some special motivation IMO.

13 hours ago, Gallowglass said:

I'm wondering what the culmination of the whole "Cult of the Ship and the City" plot hook is supposed to be (p. 215 GtG). This must have something to do with the underworld Waertagi coming back. They have dragon ships, and they need a dry-dock. They may be the ones responsible for all the recurring dreams and visions. The pessimistic explanation is that they also need sacrificial victims to find lost Brithos, and they end up getting most of them from Sog City. 

The re-appearance of Brithos sounds a bit like the release of the Mad Sultan from Tork - a quid pro quo in lives to be trapped beyond that Otherworld barrier. Send in a sufficiently large fleet to equate the population of Brithos (which is quite likely not that big), and there may be an exchange.

(Which reminds me of the possibility of someone sending a huge mass of prisoners of war into Tork in the hope of releasing King Orios of Tarsh and/or the descendants of his army. The wave that escaped and ended up in Dorastor may have made up the better part of the Mad Sultanate, unless the Grayskins bred profusely.)

13 hours ago, Gallowglass said:

I admit that I can't find any reference to ships sailing out of the whirlpool. I just thought that was the only way to get from the Black Ocean to the surface. I'm fuzzy on my mythic geography. 

Both the Whirlpool and the Gates of Dusk are one-way routes into Hell. Another one may be the Southpath exit.

The upswell from the Pool appears to arrive in the western Sramak's River, judging by the re-appearance of the Firebergs exclusively on the Western Ocean and their absence from the East Isles.

The port at the source of the Celestial River isn't exactly fixed in its position towards Glorantha. The Sky Dome makes a full revolution every night, so it is unlikely that the port follows that revolution, but it might follow the precession of the Sky Dome.

Unless one experiences a shrinking of distances in the Outer World, the speed by which the Sky Dome revolves may exceed any speed imaginable for Gloranthan vessels, although Sramak's River might match that rotation.