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Savage Worlds Edges & Hindrances In BRP


Skunkape

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I went searching through the forums for a thread where someone had already done this are worked out a rough conversion formula but didn't find anything concerning it. The western campaign I am going to run was originally going to be using the Savage Worlds game, but my players don't want to learn SW since they are familiar with BRP I'm going to run a modified version of BRP for the system.

Only thing is, I like quite a few of the SW Edges and Hindrances and was wondering what the best way to convert them was. Problem with the two systems is SW uses a die for each stat and skill, and that die can change as the characters get more experienced. So there really isn't any common ground between the two systems to convert the Edges/Hindrances.

For instance, an Edge could give your character a +2 to the roll, if your stat is 1d4, that +2 is a big benefit, but at 1d8, the bonus isn't as significant. So would an Edge that granted a +2 be a +10% to skill in BRP or maybe a +20% or even more?

As an example the Savage Worlds Edge Alertness states that the character is more aware of their surroundings and gives a +2 to Notice rolls. Would giving a +20% to Search, Sense and Spot rolls in BRP be too much or not enough?

Thanks for constructive input on this.

Skunk - 285/420 BRP book

You wanna be alright you gotta walk tall

Long Beach Dub Allstars & Black Eyed Peas

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I was going to recommend something like, make a simple rule that a SW+2 is a BRP +15%, but then I got thinking, hey what does the benefit work out too anyway.

I generally don’t like games that hide the probability of success behind weird die rolling conventions, so back when I had an interest in SW I build a spreadsheet showing the probability of rolling the numbers 1-16 (or higher) for each die type, with or without the inclusion of the Wild die. If you take the average benefit of a +2 across the entire table you get +13.97%. Of course, in reality the types of dice used and the target numbers are not uniformly distributed – but biased towards the center of the range – so you might want to call SW+2 a +25% bonus.

As an aside, I use +25% in Rubble and Ruin as a typical bonus as it is large enough to make a difference (and hence to be worth writing on the character sheet) but not overpowering. (For example a biomodification that gives you exceptional climbing abilities gets a +25% to climb.)

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The western campaign I am going to run was originally going to be using the Savage Worlds game, but my players don't want to learn SW since they are familiar with BRP I'm going to run a modified version of BRP for the system.

Umm, you players do realize that there isn't much to learn with SW? I just recently checked out the SW system and would like to run it. It seems a very simple system to pick up.

But I think I agree with a bonus of +20% or +25%, leaning towards the +25%. Translating +1 in SW to +10% in BRP is straightforward, but a total bonus of +20% feels a little weak. If I recall right Edges that give a bonus pretty much universally give a +2, so just arbitrarily assigning +25% is not really a problem.

I disagree with +2 meaning significantly less if you have 1d8 in a skill than if you have 1d4 in a skill. In many instances such as combat you get raises for each 4 you exceed the target number by, so +2 makes raises much more likely. Other skills, such as Notice, are opposed by the targets roll, and +2 greatly boosts your chance of winning.

Help kill a Trollkin here.

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Umm, you players do realize that there isn't much to learn with SW? I just recently checked out the SW system and would like to run it. It seems a very simple system to pick up.

I think they do, but hey, they want me to use BRP, I'm all for it because basically in BRP, there aren't any mooks unless I make allowances for them, while in SW, there are mooks so a BRP game will be a little more challenging as far as the villains mooks are concerned!>:->

I disagree with +2 meaning significantly less if you have 1d8 in a skill than if you have 1d4 in a skill. In many instances such as combat you get raises for each 4 you exceed the target number by, so +2 makes raises much more likely. Other skills, such as Notice, are opposed by the targets roll, and +2 greatly boosts your chance of winning.

I see your point there!:)

Oh yeah, thanks for the input you guys have given, makes me feel like I'm on the right track.

Edited by Skunkape
Forgot to thank the input!

Skunk - 285/420 BRP book

You wanna be alright you gotta walk tall

Long Beach Dub Allstars & Black Eyed Peas

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I think they do, but hey, they want me to use BRP, I'm all for it because basically in BRP, there aren't any mooks unless I make allowances for them, while in SW, there are mooks so a BRP game will be a little more challenging as far as the villains mooks are concerned!>:->

Don't get me wrong, I'm not out to discourage anyone from using BRP, my #1 game system.

I am very impressed with SW though. It has really hit a sweet spot in being very simple rules wise, easy to learn and play, and fast but still being playable (I really think many 'rules light' systems go too far to be playable in my book). What it does - heroic, pulpy action - it does very well (and yet a trollkin mook still has a chance of dropping a runelord with one shot, though it is much less likely than BRP).

For a good gritty western go BRP all the way.

Help kill a Trollkin here.

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As an example the Savage Worlds Edge Alertness states that the character is more aware of their surroundings and gives a +2 to Notice rolls. Would giving a +20% to Search, Sense and Spot rolls in BRP be too much or not enough?
One other way to skin this: Don't have the bonus affect the chance of increasing the skill. So if the character has a 28% skill, and has a 20% edge, their chance of success is 48% but they only have to roll above the 28% skill. It keeps the bonus static, but that extra 20% at 100% represents a lot more adventuring time than it did at 28%.

Bathalians, the newest UberVillians!

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For instance, an Edge could give your character a +2 to the roll, if your stat is 1d4, that +2 is a big benefit, but at 1d8, the bonus isn't as significant. So would an Edge that granted a +2 be a +10% to skill in BRP or maybe a +20% or even more?

Don't look at what a +2 means to a character's die roll, but how it affects the result.

In Savage Worlds, the default Target Number for all actions is '4'. For a wild card, that's almost assures success.

And don't forget Realism Rule # 1 "If you can do it in real life you should be able to do it in BRP". - Simon Phipp

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Don't look at what a +2 means to a character's die roll, but how it affects the result.

In Savage Worlds, the default Target Number for all actions is '4'. For a wild card, that's almost assures success.

That was one of the things that had me stumped going from SW with the die increase to the more static method of BRP. While the skill increases with BRP, the die increase in SW means you have a variable set of results to the roll which doesn't work the same way with the BRP skill roll. Not sure if I'm explaining myself well enough, but with the increase of die roll in SW, you also increase the chance of 'Aces', and also the outcome of the roll result. BRP doesn't work the same way, which I'm ok with, but I want to be as fair as I can be with transferring the Edges/Hindrances.

I know the two games won't play the same, I'm just trying to make sure I don't unbalance the BRP system to much!

Skunk - 285/420 BRP book

You wanna be alright you gotta walk tall

Long Beach Dub Allstars & Black Eyed Peas

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increase of die roll in SW, you also increase the chance of 'Aces', and also the outcome of the roll result.

You've got things backwards here. In SW, increasing your die type actually decreases your chance to Ace. In SW, an Ace is when you roll the highest possible number on a die (so, a 4 on a D4, 6 on a D6 and so on.) So, as your die types increases, your chance of rolling that high number decreases.

I think what you mean to say is that, as your die type raises, so too does you ability to get Raises on a test, which as similar to a critical result in BRP.

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You've got things backwards here. In SW, increasing your die type actually decreases your chance to Ace. In SW, an Ace is when you roll the highest possible number on a die (so, a 4 on a D4, 6 on a D6 and so on.) So, as your die types increases, your chance of rolling that high number decreases.

I think what you mean to say is that, as your die type raises, so too does you ability to get Raises on a test, which as similar to a critical result in BRP.

Heh, yeah, raises is what I meant. That's what I get for not looking up the correct term in the book!:o

Skunk - 285/420 BRP book

You wanna be alright you gotta walk tall

Long Beach Dub Allstars & Black Eyed Peas

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I know this conversation was gone over in length in the whole D&D Feats for BRP thread a while back, but which Savage Worlds edges can't be covered by having a high skill?

And don't forget Realism Rule # 1 "If you can do it in real life you should be able to do it in BRP". - Simon Phipp

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I know this conversation was gone over in length in the whole D&D Feats for BRP thread a while back, but which Savage Worlds edges can't be covered by having a high skill?

Arcane Resistance

Attractive/Very Attractive

Berserk

Brawny

Fast Healer

Luck

Great Luck

Noble

Rich/Filthy Rich

Dodge/Improved Dodge

First Strike/Improved First Strike

Fleet-Footed

Florentine

Frenzy/Improved Frenzy

Giant Killer

Hard to Kill/Harder to Kill

Level Headed/Improved Level Headed

Marksman

No Mercy

Quick Draw

Rock and Roll!

Steady Hands

Sweep/Improved Sweep

Trademark Weapon/Improved Trademark Weapon

Two-Fisted

Fevor

Hold the Line!

Natural Leader

Rapid Recharge

Champion

Gadeteer

Holy/Unholy Warrior

McGyver

Wizard

Charismatic

Common Bond

Connections

Strong Willed

Beast Bond

Beast Master

Danger Sense

Dead Shot

Mighty Blow

Power Surge

Followers

Sidekick

Tough as Nails/Improved Touch as Nails

These are only edges from the Explorer's Edition, and don't include edges that interact with Savage World's damage system. It also doesn't include some of the Professional edges, which mostly offer a bonus to a couple of related skills.

It seems apparent to me that this is a great deal of flavor in Savage Worlds that cannot be replicated in BRP simply with high skill levels.

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I know this conversation was gone over in length in the whole D&D Feats for BRP thread a while back, but which Savage Worlds edges can't be covered by having a high skill?

There are all kinds that don't directly translate to skill bonuses per se, such as being resistent to damage, bonuses to initiative, etc.

But really I think the motivation is that some gamers like character creation with edges and hinderences (or whatever you want to call them) and feel that they help define characters better than just a bunch of skills.

EDIT: Or if looking for a more specific answer see Charles Green's post directly above mine. :)

Help kill a Trollkin here.

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Arcane Resistance

Attractive/Very Attractive

Berserk

Brawny

Fast Healer

<...snip...>

These are only edges from the Explorer's Edition, and don't include edges that interact with Savage World's damage system. It also doesn't include some of the Professional edges, which mostly offer a bonus to a couple of related skills.

It seems apparent to me that this is a great deal of flavor in Savage Worlds that cannot be replicated in BRP simply with high skill levels.

Many of these are character types and not really abilities. Gadgeteer? Beast Master? Character types with various skills. Mighty Blow? This could be a temporary high strength, invoked via a LoN Ki-like ability or spell/superpower mechanic, though not called a spell or power.

Now, in order to achieve what you might see for these types of "abilities", you might have to be running in a Heroic or Epic type setting with lots of skill points and power levels, but it is certainly do-able within the framework of the rules.

SDLeary

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Arcane Resistance

Attractive/Very Attractive

Berserk

Brawny

Fast Healer

Luck

...

These are only edges from the Explorer's Edition, and don't include edges that interact with Savage World's damage system. It also doesn't include some of the Professional edges, which mostly offer a bonus to a couple of related skills.

It seems apparent to me that this is a great deal of flavor in Savage Worlds that cannot be replicated in BRP simply with high skill levels.

Sure, there does seem to be a few that are strictly binary. As was pointed out, some are character types, eg. gadgeteer, but others beg some explanation. I have steady hands, so I don't suffer as much off a penalty on an unstable platform as you, but that's not a direct reflection of my skill, but rather my natural ability. Not sure how I'd do this myself. Maybe introduce an advanced skill that is not affected by motion?

example - We have Ride and we have Firearms. A character's weapon skill might be limited by Ride when firing from horseback. If the character learns some advance skill, like "Firearms from Horseback", which isn't affected by movement, she might be able to advance the firearm skills faster than their Ride skill, and therefore better reflect both the edge you're suggesting and the nature of character improvement that is the hallmark of BRP, without adding a point system.

Some of the other edges are just very high attributes. Savage Worlds uses a point-buy system throughout. While you can certainly get away with edges during character creation by using point buy optional rules in BRP, you'll have to implement some point-based measurement (such as MRQ's Hero Points) in order to track a character's qualification for a new edge after they have started there career.

And don't forget Realism Rule # 1 "If you can do it in real life you should be able to do it in BRP". - Simon Phipp

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Sure, there does seem to be a few that are strictly binary. As was pointed out, some are character types, eg. gadgeteer, but others beg some explanation. I have steady hands, so I don't suffer as much off a penalty on an unstable platform as you, but that's not a direct reflection of my skill, but rather my natural ability. Not sure how I'd do this myself. Maybe introduce an advanced skill that is not affected by motion?

This could be a superpower. Enhanced Dex, with the Power Modifier being that it only enhances Manipulation based skills.

example - We have Ride and we have Firearms. A character's weapon skill might be limited by Ride when firing from horseback. If the character learns some advance skill, like "Firearms from Horseback", which isn't affected by movement, she might be able to advance the firearm skills faster than their Ride skill, and therefore better reflect both the edge you're suggesting and the nature of character improvement that is the hallmark of BRP, without adding a point system.

This is the way it worked in RQ. Combined skills work at the lower % of the two skills. Certain cultures had a skill like you describe, that allowed a single skill for the combined action. Grazelanders and Pentans come to mind.

Some of the other edges are just very high attributes. Savage Worlds uses a point-buy system throughout. While you can certainly get away with edges during character creation by using point buy optional rules in BRP, you'll have to implement some point-based measurement (such as MRQ's Hero Points) in order to track a character's qualification for a new edge after they have started there career.

You can also use the superpowers to craft some edges, and use the powers buying method listed, remembering to add appropriate limitations.

SDLeary

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I know this conversation was gone over in length in the whole D&D Feats for BRP thread a while back, but which Savage Worlds edges can't be covered by having a high skill?

Skill based Edges don't work. I've tried them out myself. Adding a plus ten here, or plus twenty there works for characters with low skills. But once you have a high enough skill the edges become redundant.

Nathan Baron

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Savage Worlds uses a point-buy system throughout. While you can certainly get away with edges during character creation by using point buy optional rules in BRP, you'll have to implement some point-based measurement (such as MRQ's Hero Points) in order to track a character's qualification for a new edge after they have started there career.

I was already considering similar mechanic to MRQ's Hero Points.

Skunk - 285/420 BRP book

You wanna be alright you gotta walk tall

Long Beach Dub Allstars & Black Eyed Peas

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Any new developments?

So far I've gone with only stating out Edges and Hindrances that don't have a direct effect on the character's skills. Course, some of them still don't work quite the same in BRP, but I'm also using the deck of cards combat rules from Deadlands to handle player position in the combat round, instead of the strike rank/dexterity system from BRP. Plus, I'm going to use the bennies/fate chip system as well.

While I like BRP's combat action system, I like the flavor of the Deadlands system for this particular campaign. So for instance, the SW Edge Luck doesn't need translation, you get an extra bennie/fate chip per game.

But something like Fast Healer gives you 2d3 hit points per week instead of the normal 1d3.

For the Hindrance Yellow, which gives you a -2 penalty, I've translated that to a 25% penalty on Sanity checks.

The main test will be to see how it plays in the campaign, but I really appreciate everyone's input! Once I get the write up done, I'll post it in the downloads section assuming it doesn't infringe on SW's copyright. I've got about another weeks worth of work on it, provided I get the time to actually work on it!:D

I seem to be able to devote more time on this than I've been able to devote on the online BRP character sheet. But the character sheet takes longer because of trying to get the layout correct!

Skunk - 285/420 BRP book

You wanna be alright you gotta walk tall

Long Beach Dub Allstars & Black Eyed Peas

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  • 2 months later...

Went ahead and uploaded what I've got so far with my conversion to the downloads section. Still very much a work in progress, but I know if I don't upload it and get feedback on it, I'll never get it done.

Also, this has received no play testing as the campaign that I'm going to use it on hasn't started yet. Some of my players are chomping at the bit to start, but I've told them numerous times, we won't start this until my current campaign is completed and I also have more work on this campaign before I'm even ready to start so...

Skunk - 285/420 BRP book

You wanna be alright you gotta walk tall

Long Beach Dub Allstars & Black Eyed Peas

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Arcane Resistance

Attractive/Very Attractive

Berserk

Brawny

Fast Healer

Luck

Great Luck

Noble

Rich/Filthy Rich

Dodge/Improved Dodge

First Strike/Improved First Strike

Fleet-Footed

Florentine

Frenzy/Improved Frenzy

Giant Killer

Hard to Kill/Harder to Kill

Level Headed/Improved Level Headed

Marksman

No Mercy

Quick Draw

Rock and Roll!

Steady Hands

Sweep/Improved Sweep

Trademark Weapon/Improved Trademark Weapon

Two-Fisted

Fevor

Hold the Line!

Natural Leader

Rapid Recharge

Champion

Gadeteer

Holy/Unholy Warrior

McGyver

Wizard

Charismatic

Common Bond

Connections

Strong Willed

Beast Bond

Beast Master

Danger Sense

Dead Shot

Mighty Blow

Power Surge

Followers

Sidekick

Tough as Nails/Improved Touch as Nails

These are only edges from the Explorer's Edition, and don't include edges that interact with Savage World's damage system. It also doesn't include some of the Professional edges, which mostly offer a bonus to a couple of related skills.

It seems apparent to me that this is a great deal of flavor in Savage Worlds that cannot be replicated in BRP simply with high skill levels.

I guess it depends on how you define flavour, really. Much of these things are handled in BRP in different ways - but are still present. Things like Attractive/Unattractive, Luck, etc, are sinply scaled as Characteristics that aren't included in Savage Worlds. Things like Noble (Status) are handled through skills, while Edges that are bonuses to skills can merely be better skill scores, surely? Other things are handled as Powers. Whilst BRP doesn't necessarily produce an exact replica of Savage Worlds, in every case, I wouldn't state that you can't do the same things with it.

Both games are attempting to be generic rule-sets, albeit with slightly different conventions of play. The major difference between the two titles has more to do with marketing than anything else.

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I guess it depends on how you define flavour, really. Much of these things are handled in BRP in different ways - but are still present. Things like Attractive/Unattractive, Luck, etc, are sinply scaled as Characteristics that aren't included in Savage Worlds. Things like Noble (Status) are handled through skills, while Edges that are bonuses to skills can merely be better skill scores, surely? Other things are handled as Powers. Whilst BRP doesn't necessarily produce an exact replica of Savage Worlds, in every case, I wouldn't state that you can't do the same things with it.

Both games are attempting to be generic rule-sets, albeit with slightly different conventions of play. The major difference between the two titles has more to do with marketing than anything else.

The thing is, that you this, and I know this about BRP characters. We know that "Attractive" is covered by a higher-the-average APP characteristic, and that Nobles with a high Status skill might allow them to through their weight around during a game.

We know this, because we've had loads of experience with BRP, and have internalized what the numbers mean. Player new to the system don't know this, and have no association between the numbers and what they "mean" during the actual play experience.

What the Edges and Hindrances from Savage World do is, in addition to giving solid, easy to understand rule-related advice on how to play in character, they are also a shorthand for character, expressed in a way even newbies can get. For some, "I am a Gearhead, and I get a +2 bonus to Repair and Technology Rolls" speaks to them in a way "I have an INT of 16 and Repair and Technology skills in the 70% range" doesn't.

For me, I think the combination of percentiles (Easy to grasp) and character related Bonuses (from edges or similar systems) is a double-win situation.

They are character-creating tools, more than anything else. And anything that increases my player's ability to get into their character, without adding too much tedium or minutia, is always good at the table. For me, Savage Worlds works because it provides clear advice for the GM on how to use these systems.

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I'm not trying to knock Savage Worlds, incidentally, which I think is a fine product.

However, for me, the characteristics and skills of BRP have always provided a nice easy profile with which to interpret characters. The various advantage/disadvantage systems, whilst I can see their functional use in a number of cases, have always felt a bit of prescriptive to me - something else to list about a character rather than aiding the profile in my mind.

As I say, it's different conventions what we are talking about here - and different gamers preferences for them.

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