Pre-RQ3 Sorcery

[SDLeary]

I was lurking around RPGnet today and came on a thread that was talking about The Old Days, specifically RQ1/2. What caught my eye was that someone got banned for asking for transcription of some rules that appeared in an issue of a fanzine called The Wild Hunt, and in a newsletter by Greg called The Son of Sartar #3.

What did it look like? Did it bear any resemblance to what appeared in RQ3, or was it more like what we would now call Lunar Magic?

SDLeary

[Joerg]

There exists a magic for wizards that resembles RQ2 Battle Magic. This is really a BRP topic, as BRP started out as RQ2 Gateway.

Drakar och Demoner started out as a gateway RQ2 which looked at the skills divisible by 5%, and IIRC at some point did so, using a D20. Other than that, it introduced spells using the Battle Magic rules (you expend MP, "temporary POW" in RQ2-speak, to power spells). Spell effects are stronger than classic Battle magic.

The RQ3 rework of Griffin Mountain presents the battle magic of the Greatway Dwarves as sorcery spells...

[scott-martin]

7 hours ago, SDLeary said:

Son of Sartar #3.

That thing is pretty rare. Sorry to hear Big Purple is still wielding the ban, or maybe comforted that they remain ever vigilant.

I would hate to get banned from here but at that point Greg was spitballing a little. The key was an extremely expensive knowledge skill (not quite as expensive as General Knowledge but far beyond the basics on the character sheet)  called General Sorcery that opened up each tier of rune magic (1-point, 2-point, etc.) with every 25% increment of skill. You would then need to find a sorcerous source for the spell. Most people could cast whatever they had access to once per day. 

There was also a somewhat more affordable Ceremonial Magic skill that let you stack up to 5% onto your casting roll for every hour you spent getting into what we might call the mental Bonewits Zone. Every point was precious so you wanted to take your time. 

Because there wasn't any kind of POW economy attached to this short sketch (maybe a typed page within the larger article) Greg was gravitating toward the knowledge economy as the fun part. Books were going to be important (this mechanic might have turned into the Call of Cthulhu grimoire system) and they were working on a hierarchy of tutelary spirits you could call up and force to teach sorcerous spells. Because this direct route was called Demonology there's a slight faustian whiff around it . . . but no explicit notes about any authority warning people away from it. It would be interesting to reconstruct a Call of Cthulhu that worked this way!

So not lunar magic or RQ3 at all because the manipulations aren't there. There were other efforts moving into the '80s.

[Richard S.]

2 hours ago, scott-martin said:

That thing is pretty rare. Sorry to hear Big Purple is still wielding the ban, or maybe comforted that they remain ever vigilant.

I would hate to get banned from here but at that point Greg was spitballing a little. The key was an extremely expensive knowledge skill (not quite as expensive as General Knowledge but far beyond the basics on the character sheet)  called General Sorcery that opened up each tier of rune magic (1-point, 2-point, etc.) with every 25% increment of skill. You would then need to find a sorcerous source for the spell. Most people could cast whatever they had access to once per day. 

There was also a somewhat more affordable Ceremonial Magic skill that let you stack up to 5% onto your casting roll for every hour you spent getting into what we might call the mental Bonewits Zone. Every point was precious so you wanted to take your time. 

Because there wasn't any kind of POW economy attached to this short sketch (maybe a typed page within the larger article) Greg was gravitating toward the knowledge economy as the fun part. Books were going to be important (this mechanic might have turned into the Call of Cthulhu grimoire system) and they were working on a hierarchy of tutelary spirits you could call up and force to teach sorcerous spells. Because this direct route was called Demonology there's a slight faustian whiff around it . . . but no explicit notes about any authority warning people away from it. It would be interesting to reconstruct a Call of Cthulhu that worked this way!

So not lunar magic or RQ3 at all because the manipulations aren't there. There were other efforts moving into the '80s.

So it was basically a way to learn Rune Magic without worshipping a god? And then to cast the spells you needed to make a skill roll? It sounds like an interesting prototype for our modern sorcery, and honestly one that I'd like to try out. The demonology part especially sounds very sorcerous - forcing spirits to give you spells rather than bargaining for them like a shaman or praying for them like a priest.

What exactly do you mean by there wasn't any kind of POW economy and that Greg was gravitating towards the knowledge economy? Did sorcerers not have to sacrifice for their Rune spells, and access was limited by them having to find and learn them from books instead?

[Rick Meints]

This is from Greg's Son of Sartar #3 contribution to Wild Hunt #46 in 1979 

"RUNEQUEST doesn't have a magical system for mages, just a very well developed clerical system."  (Warren James)

METHODS OF WIZARDRY

There are three general methods of Sorcery. To make it fit within a conception of the previously presented theistic form of Gloranthan worship it is useful to envision the individual human being as the deity which is worshipped or invoked to perform. This fits in perfectly well with Gloranthan mythology and cosmology wherein people are all descendants of Grandfather Mortal who was created with bit of all of the deities in the cosmos, therefore being a microcosm of the universe himself. The three methods are:

1. GENERAL SORCERY – In this manner a wizard may attempt to cast a spell using his own innate skills at that particular magic. This is a Knowledge Skill which must be learned for at least 25% before it can be used alone.

2. CEREMONIAL MAGIC – In this a magician is able to reproduce a magical act by use of sympathetic magic and other skills. It requires props and time. Ceremonial Magic can be used to cast a spell or to bolster one cast by Sorcery. It is a Knowledge Skill.

3. DEMONOLOGY – This is summoning a spirit or demon or god and engaging it in spirit combat to force it to teach magic to the individual. This is essentially a way of learning magic without books or reading rolls.

 

[Richard S.]

Worship of the caster, huh. Now I see why it was called humanist. And spirit combatting a god... I see that RQ2 sorcerers were probably expected to become pretty powerful. I'd love to see this fleshed out some (insert "I'll do it myself" Thanos gif here), maybe I'll even incorporate some of its ideas into my Glorantha. As someone with an unabashed love for "old" Glorantha, despite not even being aware of the hobby until 6 years ago, this type of stuff is fascinating to me.

[SDLeary]

1 hour ago, Rick Meints said:

This is from Greg's Son of Sartar #3 contribution to Wild Hunt #46 in 1979 

"RUNEQUEST doesn't have a magical system for mages, just a very well developed clerical system."  (Warren James)

METHODS OF WIZARDRY

There are three general methods of Sorcery. To make it fit within a conception of the previously presented theistic form of Gloranthan worship it is useful to envision the individual human being as the deity which is worshipped or invoked to perform. This fits in perfectly well with Gloranthan mythology and cosmology wherein people are all descendants of Grandfather Mortal who was created with bit of all of the deities in the cosmos, therefore being a microcosm of the universe himself. The three methods are:

1. GENERAL SORCERY – In this manner a wizard may attempt to cast a spell using his own innate skills at that particular magic. This is a Knowledge Skill which must be learned for at least 25% before it can be used alone.

2. CEREMONIAL MAGIC – In this a magician is able to reproduce a magical act by use of sympathetic magic and other skills. It requires props and time. Ceremonial Magic can be used to cast a spell or to bolster one cast by Sorcery. It is a Knowledge Skill.

3. DEMONOLOGY – This is summoning a spirit or demon or god and engaging it in spirit combat to force it to teach magic to the individual. This is essentially a way of learning magic without books or reading rolls.

 

Excellent! Thanks Much Rick. 

A further question, which you may or may not have the answer to. 

Above, Scott specifically eluded to these Sorcerous Talents applying to Rune Magic, though I see no specific mention of Rune Magic in what you posted, though terms like Theistic and Clerical are used. Do you know if the actual intent was Rune Magic only, or was Battle Magic included as well?

SDLeary

[Richard S.]

28 minutes ago, SDLeary said:

Excellent! Thanks Much Rick. 

A further question, which you may or may not have the answer to. 

Above, Scott specifically eluded to these Sorcerous Talents applying to Rune Magic, though I see no specific mention of Rune Magic in what you posted, though terms like Theistic and Clerical are used. Do you know if the actual intent was Rune Magic only, or was Battle Magic included as well?

SDLeary

Comparing it to the information Scott gave, I think Rick may have given an abridged version of the article. I don't see the how wizardry as we know it so far could apply to battle magic, so I'm inclined to think that it merely lets one learn and cast Rune magic without sacrificing to a god.

Edited January 2, 2020 by Richard S.

[SDLeary]

42 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

Comparing it to the information Scott gave, I think Rick may have given an abridged version of the article. I don't see the how wizardry as we know it so far could apply to battle magic, so I'm inclined to think that it merely lets one learn and cast Rune magic without sacrificing to a god.

Probably true. Just like to know.

SDLeary

[David Scott]

By 1980, Greg had moved on to a different version of sorcery, not a bolt on to RQ2, but whole standalone version of RQ called Arcane Lords. Of course it was never published. The manuscript (if that's the right word) lived in a brown folder and was by no means complete. It was a mixture of typed, handwritten and annotated pages from RQ2, about 236 of them. Lots of detail on the Malkoni caste structure, society and history. Only a small amount of detail on actual sorcery, other than each spell had a casting % modified by a casting bonus (based on CON, INT, POW and DEX) and that there were lesser arcane and arcane spells, and ceremonial magic. Battle magic wasn't used by Wizards. There are no spell lists, although there was a section for them. In my opinion they could have been lifted for RQ3 when this project was abandoned. There were references to it in WF #8(1980) & #11(1981):

Quote

 

THE BRITHINI , by Chaosium

This is a long supplement which outlines the western part of the continent of Genertela where the race known as Brithini live. They do not worship gods like in Prax and Dragon Pass, but instead believe in the ideals of Man and act accordingly. Thus instead of god-governed Rune Magic they have sorcery, and instead of Rune Lords worshipping fighting gods , they follow the Way of Hrestol, the First Knight. Of course there are some elemental priesthoods around, and enchanters and so on .

 

Quote

 

MORTAL LORDS by Charlie Krank

Knights and Wizards of the West

The rules for the wizards of Glorantha . Set in first age Seshnela, Mortal Lords will be fully compatible with the standard RuneOuest rules, and will include many maps, legends and adventures in this legendary land. Journey into the dark interior of Ralios to fight the Krialki demons, explore the forests of Kanthor and more. Wizards master the powers of the self rather than relying on the abi lities of the gods.

 

spells cost Power had a base chance and cost INT in some way. No runes either. There were arcane skills - Multispell, Spell Stacking, Spell Storing/Release, Extension. Likely others as well.

Overall this looks like the origin of RQ3 Sorcery.

 

[Rick Meints]

22 hours ago, Richard S. said:

Comparing it to the information Scott gave, I think Rick may have given an abridged version of the article. I don't see the how wizardry as we know it so far could apply to battle magic, so I'm inclined to think that it merely lets one learn and cast Rune magic without sacrificing to a god.

Yes, I posted just an abridged summary. The basic approach is once you have 25% in the skill you can cast 1 point RUNE spells, at 50% you can cast 2 point RUNE spells, and then at 75% you can cast 3 point RUNE spells.