What Should Elemental Runes Augment

[JustAnotherVingan]

At present Fire/Sky augments Perception as a skill category but also Scan as a Sense.

Air augments Manipulation as a skill category including combat skills but also Sword as a specific weapon.

These overlaps offend my sense of neatness and in the case of Air seem OP.

What I think I'll be trying in my Glorantha is that Fire/Sky will augment Knowledge as a skill category instead of Perception.

Air will still augment Manipulation but not combat skills other than sword. I might let it affect Track as well as Scent as a sense. not sure yet.

Oh, and I don't think its worth having as a skill but if any Lunars are running across tightropes etc I might allow them to augment their Balance (eg DEX X2 roll) with the Moon Rune.

Edited January 12, 2020 by JustAnotherVingan
Superfluous word in title.

[Mirza]

I had to go and recheck RQG to make sure, but the usage of elemental runes for Inspiration isn't restricted to a specific skill category JAV, a character can totally use their Fire Rune to try Inspire their sword skills.

I understand that the feeling to attempt to limit the elemental runes to the skill category that they are associated with, but that's never explicitly stated to be a thing in the rules, and for the purposes of fun, I wouldn't want it either. It's rather unfun when the game mechanics force a character to have the same personality archetype every time if you want to ever invoke an elemental Inspiration in combat, no? And as you point out, it leads to some seriously bad balance (oh no, the forbidden word!) issues, look at what a Darkness Rune character could inspire with the rune for a laugh under those rules.

Anyway, I might imagine that Fire Rune Inspiration as something where the character is going back to the basics of swordplay, and using the sword style in the more pure, idealized form that they were taught, rather than the improvisations that they've made over their usage of the skill.

Edited January 13, 2020 by Mirza

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Mirza said:

I had to go and recheck RQG to make sure, but the usage of elemental runes for Inspiration isn't restricted to a specific skill category

Actually it is.

p.227: "The skills that Runic inspiration can augment depend on the specific Rune.... An Elemental Rune may be used to augment the adventurer’s chance with a single non-combat skill within its skills category, with a sense associated with the Rune, or with an elemental weapon. See the Rune descriptions on page 48–50 for these associations."

3 hours ago, JustAnotherVingan said:

What I think I'll be trying in my Glorantha is that Fire/Sky will augment Knowledge as a skill category instead of Perception

In my view, Fire/Sky has always had the strongest affinity for Sight and eyes, hence the Perception skills, particularly Scan. IIRC, this association goes all the way back to an old Wyrms Footnotes table. The rune in my mind that goes with Knowledge is the Power Rune of Truth. Or else I could see a division of various Knowledge skills by Rune - e.g. Celestial Lore could be augmented by Fire/Sky; Mineral Lore by Earth; Underworld Lore by Darkness; Sea Lore by Water... But Animal Lore or Plant Lore might have to be refined further e.g. by the associated Phyla or the like.

 

[JustAnotherVingan]

5 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Actually it is.

p.227: "The skills that Runic inspiration can augment depend on the specific Rune.... An Elemental Rune may be used to augment the adventurer’s chance with a single non-combat skill within its skills category, with a sense associated with the Rune, or with an elemental weapon. See the Rune descriptions on page 48–50 for these associations."

In my view, Fire/Sky has always had the strongest affinity for Sight and eyes, hence the Perception skills, particularly Scan. IIRC, this association goes all the way back to an old Wyrms Footnotes table. The rune in my mind that goes with Knowledge is the Power Rune of Truth. Or else I could see a division of various Knowledge skills by Rune - e.g. Celestial Lore could be augmented by Fire/Sky; Mineral Lore by Earth; Underworld Lore by Darkness; Sea Lore by Water... But Animal Lore or Plant Lore might have to be refined further e.g. by the associated Phyla or the like.

 

The problem to me is that Fire/Sky gets the bonus to all perception skills, not just Scan. It gets just as big a bonus for Listen as it does for Scan or as Darkness does for Listen.

Same with Air. In some ways Air seems as suited to Combat as Fire/Sky does to Perception but at present Air is as good at augmenting Spears as Fire/Sky, as good as augmenting Axes as Earth is etc.

I'd rather see each element associated with 1 weapon type and 1 perception skill. Fire/Sky is associated with intellectualism as well as purity and if perception is divided between all the elements then knowledge would be left as the only (and most suitable) skill category for it to boost.

edit: I suppose another way around what probably only I see as a problem would be to say Fire/Sky continues to  boost Perception but can give a bigger bonus to Scan than other perception skills, and Air continues to boost Manipulation including weapon skills but boosts Sword more.

Edited January 13, 2020 by JustAnotherVingan

[French Desperate WindChild]

An Elemental Rune may be used to augment the adventurer’s chance with a single non-combat skill within its skills category, with a sense associated with the Rune, or with an elemental weapon.

 

so Air give a bonus for manipulation skill but in non combat situation. Yes it give you a bonus in Spear skill, when you don't fight... When you fight, the only bonus is the sword one

the issue in Fire is more that "should scan bonus and perception bonus be added " ?

[JustAnotherVingan]

5 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

An Elemental Rune may be used to augment the adventurer’s chance with a single non-combat skill within its skills category, with a sense associated with the Rune, or with an elemental weapon.

 

so Air give a bonus for manipulation skill but in non combat situation. Yes it give you a bonus in Spear skill, when you don't fight... When you fight, the only bonus is the sword one

the issue in Fire is more that "should scan bonus and perception bonus be added " ?

You're right, that's what it says on p45 and p221, so I had the wrong impression. I'll maybe settle for Scan getting a bigger bonus from Fire/Sky than other Perception skills do.

[Akhôrahil]

I think the runic associations listed in the rules are good. The Fire/Light rune, for instance, has long been associated with vision (like Cateye for Yelmalio).

(Although I do allow Vingans to augment Javelin using Air.)

Edited January 13, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[French Desperate WindChild]

16 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

(Although I do allow Vingans to augment Javelin using Air.)

Why Vingan and not others ?

[Akhôrahil]

11 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Why Vingan and not others ?

Because it's her special cultic weapon, and it feels harsh that Vingans wouldn't be able to use their Air rune for augments to it (Vinga has special Javelin magic in HeroQuest, for instance, like our favorite Mile-Long Javelin Throw that has been used to make perfect mile measurements - just check how long the Vingan can throw it!).

I basically added it as a subcult special power for Vinga. 

Edited January 13, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[French Desperate WindChild]

23 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Because it's her special cultic weapon, and it feels harsh that Vingans wouldn't be able to use their Air rune for augments to it (Vinga has special Javelin magic in HeroQuest, for instance, like our favorite Mile-Long Javelin Throw that has been used to make perfect mile measurements - just check how long the Vingan can throw it!).

I basically added it as a subcult special power for Vinga. 

in this case I would use the devotion Vinga passion ?

it is not the original power (the rune) it is the Vinga power

 

[Akhôrahil]

13 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

in this case I would use the devotion Vinga passion ?

This is fine too, naturally. However, I see Devotion not as a magical power, but as a mental state. "Vinga guide my throw!" when augmenting with Devotion is about inspiration, not magic.

(Also, it's easier to say why you should be allowed to augment a javelin throw using Air than why you shouldn't - guiding it with the winds.)

Edited January 13, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[French Desperate WindChild]

7 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

(Also, it's easier to say why you should be allowed to augment a javelin throw using Air than why you shouldn't - guiding it with the winds.)

Yes sure the weapon split by rune could be discussed (but that is a nice balance between runes and there are mythic reasons too)

but don't forget the passion power. IRL the ony time I succeed in snooker were  when the girl subject of "my Love passion" was watching me.. but it was before the great compromise, I m too old for this now

[Akhôrahil]

6 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

but don't forget the passion power. IRL the ony time I succeed in snooker were  when the girl subject of "my Love passion" was watching me.. but it was before the great compromise, I m too old for this now

Since my players are running a homesteading family in the Risklands, Love(Family) gets used all the time.

They've even manged to squeeze in their ancestral passion of Hate(Bad Dogs). 

Edited January 13, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Shiningbrow]

If the adventurer has already rolled to be inspired by a Rune or Passion during the situation at hand, they cannot try to be inspired again, even by a different Rune or Passion. The bonus from inspiration cannot be combined with an augment from another skill (see page 144). Finally, once a Rune is successfully used for inspiration, it cannot be used again that session.

Personally, I wouldn't stress too much about it.

[Akhôrahil]

32 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Personally, I wouldn't stress too much about it.

I think this is important to keep track of in play.

[Shiningbrow]

18 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

I think this is important to keep track of in play.

Give each player some sort of token. When they use it, give to GM.

[PhilHibbs]

On 1/12/2020 at 11:26 PM, JustAnotherVingan said:

At present Fire/Sky augments Perception as a skill category but also Scan as a Sense.

Air augments Manipulation as a skill category including combat skills but also Sword as a specific weapon.

These overlaps offend my sense of neatness and in the case of Air seem OP.

Personally I don't like the errata that removes "...except for weapon skills" from the Air rune augments section. That just leaves Fire/Sky's Perception/Scan as an overlap. And now that you point it out, it bothers me as well... 🥴