Runequest PbP?

[Grey Hat]

I’ve been tinkering with Discord but there doesn’t seem to be a way to show maps. Maybe Roll20 might be better? For a text based PbP game?
 

 

[Richard S.]

Just now, Grey Hat said:

I’ve been tinkering with Discord but there doesn’t seem to be a way to show maps. Maybe Roll20 might be better? For a text based PbP game?
 

 

R20 might work, but honestly if it was me I'd try and avoid maps altogether. I ran RQ for years without a single map irl, though we did modify the system a little too be looser and more friendly towards theatre of the mind. I'll see if I can find my notes again.

[Bill the barbarian]

37 minutes ago, Grey Hat said:

I’ve been tinkering with Discord but there doesn’t seem to be a way to show maps. Maybe Roll20 might be better? For a text based PbP game?

Forums at rpggeek do everything well, just not easily. Should I run a game it will be there (with the following caveat). My only problem with the lack of ease  is it will not work for RQ combat which will need something easier and much faster to make a point in. That is why I am seeking a good chat room with rolls and the ability to place pics...

[jajagappa]

6 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

My only problem with the lack of ease  is it will not work for RQ combat which will need something easier and much faster to make a point in.

I'll note that I've had no issues running RQG combat at rpggeek. Usually I end up creating a battle map where I can position characters by text symbols (i.e. 1st two letters of the name). I snapshot it, upload, and that's the update for the round. And enough to make a rough statement of intent for the next round. 

They look like this.

 

[jajagappa]

7 hours ago, Richard S. said:

I ran RQ for years without a single map irl, though we did modify the system a little too be looser and more friendly towards theatre of the mind. I'll see if I can find my notes again.

I will do maps either for combat, or if the players are trying to determine which way to go and need some orientation.

[Bill the barbarian]

3 hours ago, jajagappa said:

I'll note that I've had no issues running RQG combat at rpggeek. Usually I end up creating a battle map where I can position characters by text symbols (i.e. 1st two letters of the name). I snapshot it, upload, and that's the update for the round. And enough to make a rough statement of intent for the next round. 

 

Yes but with rpggeek taking so long to format a post it is well worth it for a few paragraphs of text responding to multiple people to either know your tag formatting or be good at cut and pasting from multiple open windows. ... I suppose one could agree no formatting for the combat phases to speed things up. But even then, one will want to reply and that takes a bit of time unless one one wants to quote 7 paragraphs worth of text to say yes to a post here and a no to a point there. Jajagappa knows what I mean but for those of you not old enough to remember when tag formatting was the norm (the 70s) and who do not write html or css "Tag Formatting" is incredibly powerful in options of how the text responds to your orders, but other that a few graphics radio buttons most commands are cut and pasted from examples one likes or written in  hypertext style.

11 hours ago, Richard S. said:

R20 might work, but honestly if it was me I'd try and avoid maps altogether. I ran RQ for years without a single map irl, though we did modify the system a little too be looser and more friendly towards theatre of the mind. I'll see if I can find my notes again.

In real life gaming, I am map agnostic. I can play (and prefer to play) in a Theatre of the Mind suspension of reality. But damn it, the maps in RQ have always been so good. Leaving me agnostic. If I have a beautiful map I will use it. In a game of typed text I like a little bit of colour in the way of a great narrative, a beautiful pic, or a map that explains a lot, like in a  "the 1000 words equalling a picture" kind of way. jajagappa balances that well and it is a skill I will have to master in order to not have a game collapse from the sheer weight of walls of text online.

Anyway, jajagappa, does that explain my reluctance to running what could easily be a 5 minute running battle (5 minutes times 5 MRs equals 25 MRs or one RQ Turn) of duel, tactically move to a new spot, duel, repeat as needed, retreat due to a set back and resume duel with updated spells. In a post a day could take near a month. in a post every 5 minutes with everyone agreeing to meet up online at at the same bat time on the same bat channel. Well that could be 25 flurries of posts at 5 minutes of space between each flurry, I am seeing a couple of hours on a great day (on a bad day?) for something I described in one run-on sentence. Start having to format the text, which will be very mandatory at some points (like dialogue requiring coloured text to make it easier to find and quotes being formatted in another way) and ones post gains another layer of complexity.  

Give me an idea of what an RQ combat could look like online, perhaps, jajagappa. That is the one area that bothers me with RQ online and I doubt i would be satisfied, never mind happy, with an HQ like combat (opposed rolls ) to speed up an RQ game.

Cheers 

 

Edited January 25, 2020 by Bill the barbarian

[jajagappa]

9 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Give me an idea of what an RQ combat could look like online, perhaps, jajagappa. 

Sure! The map posted above was from a battle between our heroes (led by Harmast Baranthosson) and scorpionmen occurring atop the hill near Whitewall called Garanstone. They were part of a larger battle as there were a group of Yelmalions/Grazelanders there as well. But combat followed the heroes (all else was narrated as you'd expect in a somewhat larger battle scene). The battle gets underway about halfway down the page.

The Hero Wars: Colymar's Vision - scorpionman battle

13 rounds total. Began June 10, finished July 10 (so had July 4 holiday tucked in there). Longest combat we've run. Rare that a combat lasts more than 5-6 rounds.

19 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

In a post a day could take near a month.

Yep. And... I don't have any issues with that. It works just fine for those of us who are spread across the globe and have time for a post or a couple posts a day.

But you'll see that we take certain conventions to accommodate the format. 

You determine what you're doing, what spell you're casting or attack you're making and make your roll. But you also roll for hit location and damage at the same time if you succeeded. I come along and respond to each of the individual actions with GM rolls, and determine/narrate outcomes. And on to the next round (sometimes have to deal with a few added parries, particularly to deal with scorpionman stingers in this example.

25 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

I suppose one could agree no formatting for the combat phases to speed things up.

We always format to some degree because it's easiest for everyone to work in a familiar way. But there's basic things we do to minimize effort. Generally we don't combine quotes from multiple texts - you hit Quote for a whole post, remove the extraneous bits, and add your text below; then format with same buttons as you find here: bold, italic, text color, etc. Only difference is the html tags are visible instead of hidden as they are here.

Overall point is that RQG combat can be done in PbF. Don't have the expectation that it will be done in a day (nor will anything else). Do have the expectation that it's an equally rich and rewarding experience.  It has a pace to it (just a very different from a tabletop or online game) that can work well for a group that doesn't have lots of time available or that has very far-flung participants. @Oracle can speak to his experience from player perspective.

[Bill the barbarian]

12 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

13 rounds total. Began June 10, finished July 10 (so had July 4 holiday tucked in there). Longest combat we've run. Rare that a combat lasts more than 5-6 rounds.

 

Nice to know that not only do I know what I am talking about, but I am an optimist to boot! That is twice as fast as I thought.

 

15 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Yep. And... I don't have any issues with that. It works just fine for those of us who are spread across the globe and have time for a post or a couple posts a day.

It makes me think of what I used to know of as old grognards when I was a young gamer. The folk that would play large sections of Napoleonic campaigns (these grognards were actually gorgnards by the etymology of the word) by real post. They would set up their tables and maps and then mail in their moves to a ref who would respond and this would continue for months with great armies maneuvering (trundling being a little more accurate, like some deranged party of bulls) until the ref determined conditions existed for engagement (sounds like RQ G, no?) If the posts were close enough they would meet at a local con and play the engagement. I got to sub in as a proxy once for a player that could not make the tourney... We were expecting a prussian column to reinforce us from the southeast when we were told a column of blue uniformed soldiers were approaching from the definite east... You guessed it, La Francais.... Retreat, we saved our forces (spending the better part of the day in the game) and the game returned to the normal long bouts of mailings.

The folks loved it... bury em with their campaign boos on. and all is will with the world.

[Oracle]

On 1/25/2020 at 3:15 AM, jajagappa said:

...

Overall point is that RQG combat can be done in PbF. Don't have the expectation that it will be done in a day (nor will anything else). Do have the expectation that it's an equally rich and rewarding experience.  It has a pace to it (just a very different from a tabletop or online game) that can work well for a group that doesn't have lots of time available or that has very far-flung participants. @Oracle can speak to his experience from player perspective.

In fact I did not yet participate in a real excessive combat situation in @jajagappa Runequest thread on RPGGEEK, especially not in the one mentioned above, but I do not see too many issues here. As already mentioned you use the dice tool several times at once for getting the weapon or spell dice roll result and the hit location and then you wait for the counter rolls of the GM and his interpretation of the results. Yes, it will take longer than in a real life game, but that's the case with everything else too. So you're combat will run in very slow motion, but this has its merits too. It's like your daily cliffhanger ... uuhh, what will happen now? Do I hit the enemy, and will he go down or not? For me, that raises the tension.

But I know, these days, where you can see a whole season of a TV show, people are not really trained in this kind of patience ... 😉
Do you remember the Star Trek season finale of TNG, when Picard was assimilated by the Borg?

Quote

Picard (via communication channel from the Borg cube): "You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile."

Riker (on the Enterprise): "... Fire!"

End of Season. Continued half a year later ...
These days the kids wouldn't be able to endure that ...

But back to the OP.
From my perspective, combat is not more difficult than using other skills in a PbF game. You just have to use the dice tool more often in one step, but otherwise no difference. I do not see, that you have to do more copy and paste than for other skills.

But I may be the wrong one to ask. I've always preferred tag using text formatters like TeX over WYSIWYG text editors ...

 

Edited January 26, 2020 by Oracle

[Richard S.]

On 1/24/2020 at 9:41 AM, Grey Hat said:

I’ve been tinkering with Discord but there doesn’t seem to be a way to show maps. Maybe Roll20 might be better? For a text based PbP game?
 

 

Inspired by what Jajagappa was saying, couldn't you just mock up a map in photoshop and upload it as an image to Discord at the start of each round? You could save each player icon as a separate layer so you can move them around without having to completely redraw the map each round. I do think Discord would be a good choice if you could do something like that; it's quick, easier on the eyes and more compact than a forum imo, and you can have separate channels to store character sheets and ooc discussion and whatnot.

[Grey Hat]

On 1/25/2020 at 11:01 PM, Richard S. said:

Inspired by what Jajagappa was saying, couldn't you just mock up a map in photoshop and upload it as an image to Discord at the start of each round? You could save each player icon as a separate layer so you can move them around without having to completely redraw the map each round. I do think Discord would be a good choice if you could do something like that; it's quick, easier on the eyes and more compact than a forum imo, and you can have separate channels to store character sheets and ooc discussion and whatnot.

I don't have Photoshop but this is something I'm going to look into so I appreciate your input.  I've always been a 'theater of the mind' GM. I'm still not sure just how much involvement I want to deal with.

[Bill the barbarian]

5 hours ago, Grey Hat said:

I don't have Photoshop but this is something I'm going to look into so I appreciate your input.  I've always been a 'theater of the mind' GM. I'm still not sure just how much involvement I want to deal with.

A free and near as powerful solution (with a name ya have to hide from mom) is GIMP, Graphic Image Manipulation Program. Mind you, if you are saying you are not sure of your comfort level for involvement neither of these ideas are “easy”. Which is also true of using tag formatting PbF sites, for that matter..

[Grey Hat]

2 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

A free and near as powerful solution (with a name ya have to hide from mom) is GIMP, Graphic Image Manipulation Program. Mind you, if you are saying you are not sure of your comfort level for involvement neither of these ideas are “easy”. Which is also true of using tag formatting PbF sites, for that matter..

Yeah, downloaded it this morning though I haven't had time to fool with it.  I'll be tinkering with the program over the next few days.  I'm thankful you guys have been patient and helpful with me.

Edited January 27, 2020 by Grey Hat

[Bill the barbarian]

Pshaw, thanks for the interest and if it causes you to run a game, that would be great! If you simply enjoy GIMP and later go on to benefit others in ways hitherto  unthought of, we will want a substantial cut.

Cheers 

Edited January 27, 2020 by Bill the barbarian

[jajagappa]

11 hours ago, Grey Hat said:

I don't have Photoshop but this is something I'm going to look into so I appreciate your input.

Although it's not the most elegant of tools, I do all my maps in Powerpoint!  (If you've seen the map of Nochet that Jeff posted some time ago, yes, that was done entirely in Powerpoint.)

6 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

GIMP, Graphic Image Manipulation Program

GIMP's a decent tool, but I've never quite found the time to learn and master it (too much time trying to get other tasks done).

 

[Bill the barbarian]

51 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Although it's not the most elegant of tools, I do all my maps in Powerpoint!  (If you've seen the map of Nochet that Jeff posted some time ago, yes, that was done entirely in Powerpoint.)

Bravo, all the maps of Notchet I have seen from the last couple of decades seem to one and the same. Old age prevents the memories from being accurate, Maybe the past decade. I first saw it on Glorantha.com and loved what I saw. The latest I have seen was a colour one from this past year. no?

In any case, now I have a major request,  jajagappa. The forum I created for DIY in Allastor's Inn (https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/10925-diy-your-way-to-olg-or-even-brp-bliss/?tab=comments#comment-162562) needs a bump in my humble opinion. Would you mind either describing this process of creating maps in a presentation software app there or at least let me know of any ‘net sources describing how in general terms to do this you have used as I would be  attempting this in Mac’s free program and I will try  to put something together for it in in my free week ahead.

Cheers

[Bill the barbarian]

56 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

GIMP's a decent tool, but I've never quite found the time to learn and master it (too much time trying to get other tasks done).

 

I think it is fair to say it is a little more difficult to use than photoshop but it seems to work and the price is right.

[jajagappa]

10 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

The forum I created for DIY in Allastor's Inn (https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/10925-diy-your-way-to-olg-or-even-brp-bliss/?tab=comments#comment-162562) needs a bump in my humble opinion. Would you mind either describing this process of creating maps in a presentation software app there or at least let me know of any ‘net sources describing how in general terms to do this you have used as I would be  attempting this in Mac’s free program and I will try  to put something together for it in in my free week ahead.

I'll need to defer that request a bit for any level of detail given other time constraints and projects, but freeform shapes and lines are your friends (with rectangles and straight-line freeform for your building outlines). Manipulate Line including widths, colors, dashes, and whether solid or not. Manipulate Fill - I use the Pattern fill mostly.  If you've got a sketch to work from, copy it in as a picture, manipulate its transparency as needed, and build lines and shapes over it.  And get the RuneQuest Rune font, so you can add those symbols in as text if you like!

[jajagappa]

18 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

all the maps of Notchet I have seen from the last couple of decades seem to one and the same.

No... not that old!  Did the Nochet map about 5 years ago.

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/catalogue/publishers/to-sort-categorise/nochet-city-of-queens/ 

 

[Bill the barbarian]

1 minute ago, jajagappa said:

I'll need to defer that request a bit for any level of detail given other time constraints and projects, but freeform shapes and lines are your friends (with rectangles and straight-line freeform for your building outlines). Manipulate Line including widths, colors, dashes, and whether solid or not. Manipulate Fill - I use the Pattern fill mostly.  If you've got a sketch to work from, copy it in as a picture, manipulate its transparency as needed, and build lines and shapes over it.  And get the RuneQuest Rune font, so you can add those symbols in as text if you like!

I got it, nice to be busy but I am surprised at how fast it happened. Thanks for the tips and I will see what I can put together. And expect that character I promised wednesday, I would be recovered from the week from hell, (ending with a 12 hour day AND a union meeting... so hard to stay awake) by then I will ask Richard S to consider the same idea for map creation with PS, and layers! (I like the idea!).

Cheers

[Bill the barbarian]

4 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

No... not that old!  Did the Nochet map about 5 years ago.

 

Yes that’s the one. That recent, eh? It’s a terrible thing when a man loses his mind at such a young age.

Edited January 28, 2020 by Bill the barbarian

[jajagappa]

On 1/27/2020 at 9:24 PM, Bill the barbarian said:

I got it, nice to be busy but I am surprised at how fast it happened.

Vacation time goes past much too quickly!!!  And on top of real-life work (which has its own extra busyness), there's also more texts to write! 

[jajagappa]

On 1/27/2020 at 9:24 PM, Bill the barbarian said:

consider the same idea for map creation with PS, and layers!

Much of it is layering, and figuring out when/where to layer for better effects. But there's a lot of figuring out what's in front and what's in back - which is where PS and GIMP provide much more ease-of-use.

[HeartQuintessence]

On 1/25/2020 at 7:50 PM, Oracle said:

In fact I did not yet participate in a real excessive combat situation in @jajagappa Runequest thread on RPGGEEK, especially not in the one mentioned above, but I do not see too many issues here. As already mentioned you use the dice tool several times at once for getting the weapon or spell dice roll result and the hit location and then you wait for the counter rolls of the GM and his interpretation of the results. Yes, it will take longer than in a real life game, but that's the case with everything else too. So you're combat will run in very slow motion, but this has its merits too. It's like your daily cliffhanger ... uuhh, what will happen now? Do I hit the enemy, and will he go down or not? For me, that raises the tension.

But I know, these days, where you can see a whole season of a TV show, people are not really trained in this kind of patience ... 😉
Do you remember the Star Trek season finale of TNG, when Picard was assimilated by the Borg?

End of Season. Continued half a year later ...
These days the kids wouldn't be able to endure that ...

But back to the OP.
From my perspective, combat is not more difficult than using other skills in a PbF game. You just have to use the dice tool more often in one step, but otherwise no difference. I do not see, that you have to do more copy and paste than for other skills.

But I may be the wrong one to ask. I've always preferred tag using text formatters like TeX over WYSIWYG text editors ...

 

For me so much of the stuff I Theater of the mind.

 

So i prefer to write, narrative as it can give you the feeling of a TV show in some measures, but you can also like things like images or  music.

 

Discord and Roll20 can be used for Dice rolls and character sheet holding.

[g33k]

Personally, I regard tactical maps for combat to be very useful & appreciated, but not quite essential...  Maybe "highly advised?"

Basically, there just aren't all that many ways that position and facing &c engage mechanically with the RQG rules.  d20's "flanking bonus" and "attack of opportunity" and "reach" weapons and such give certain tactical-combat options that are less represented in RQG (much as RQ's hit-locations and armor and such represent things d20 does not).

All the same, there are SOME things where a precisely-mapped battle does engage with a RQG rules; particularly limits of movement, ranged-attacks, attacking from where the foe will be "unaware" &c.

And more than once, I've seen TOTM combats break down when it was discovered that people at the table were engaging in combat in wholly-different "theaters:"  suddenly, something ONE person wanted to do was immersion-breakingly-impossible for another person, or the GM stated something (which clearly would have been self-evident) that nobody at the table had found evident; etc.  Resolving those and getting everyone back onto the same page is IME/IMO are a real buzzkill.

Edit:  but I'm neither pitching to run a game, nor asking to enter one; just reporting my own experience FWIW...

 

Edited January 31, 2020 by g33k