The Fate of the Sable Tribe

[Jose]

5 hours ago, David Scott said:

Yes, but remember that all of this was written for HeroQuest Glorantha. In RQG terms the Twinstars have different runes. Bension is straightforward as it uses the Moon rune, but Charisma uses Life, Illusion, Beast. This is the same in the upcoming Cults of Glorantha. I would allow Charisma to be used with the Fire rune.

So, before the red moon coming did Sable people get magic from their ancestor through the fire rune? . I thought that spirit was one of the few moon rune spirits in prax from before the Great Darkness. I Am confused about this. 

[David Scott]

13 minutes ago, Jose said:

So, before the red moon coming did Sable people get magic from their ancestor through the fire rune? . I thought that spirit was one of the few moon rune spirits in prax from before the Great Darkness. I Am confused about this. 

The Twin Stars are two beings - Twins, one Fire/Sky, the other Moon. The Moon one was invisible in the sky to all except Hidden Ancestor initiates (It was still there though - hence hidden ancestor), until the revelation by Janisor in 1275 when it became visible to everyone.

The truth of the Twin Stars was brought to Prax in 1608 by the Hungry Plateau Sables. They revealed there was mysterious connection to the Red Goddess and the Twin Stars. This was adopted by all the Sables as it was provably true. When the Lunars and HPS left in 1625, the revelation didn't disappear with them. BTW this has no effect on the game unless you are playing Vanilla Prax (the post-Pavis period of the Praxians 1572-1610).

Each spirit gives a single rune magic, one Fire/sky, one Moon, collectively they are one spirit cult.

[Jose]

4 hours ago, David Scott said:

The Twin Stars are two beings - Twins, one Fire/Sky, the other Moon. The Moon one was invisible in the sky to all except Hidden Ancestor initiates (It was still there though - hence hidden ancestor), until the revelation by Janisor in 1275 when it became visible to everyone.

The truth of the Twin Stars was brought to Prax in 1608 by the Hungry Plateau Sables. They revealed there was mysterious connection to the Red Goddess and the Twin Stars. This was adopted by all the Sables as it was provably true. When the Lunars and HPS left in 1625, the revelation didn't disappear with them. BTW this has no effect on the game unless you are playing Vanilla Prax (the post-Pavis period of the Praxians 1572-1610).

Each spirit gives a single rune magic, one Fire/sky, one Moon, collectively they are one spirit cult.

Thank you David, I was perplexed because there is a special link between the Sable people and the moon rune and I didn't understand that twin stars as founder have the fire rune. I hope someday you or someone in Chaosium explain how they seduced eiritha and become founders. I find Sable people very interesting for roleplaying, many wounds and rifts to heal and the perception of the other Tribes about them. Really interesting. 

[Darius West]

On 4/4/2022 at 11:15 PM, Jose said:

So, before the red moon coming did Sable people get magic from their ancestor through the fire rune? . I thought that spirit was one of the few moon rune spirits in prax from before the Great Darkness. I Am confused about this. 

The Blue Moon has generally been the only moon for most of Glorantha's existence.  I assume it is the main place holder for the Moon Rune, and has been for a long time prior to Rufelza, and represents the power behind the power that presides in the spring at Moonbroth Oasis.

[g33k]

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

The Blue Moon ... I assume ... represents the power behind the power that presides in the spring at Moonbroth Oasis.

Hmmm.  It has suddenly struck me that the Moon Rune (long known as an odd, tricksy, slippery thing) might not be "held" or "owned" in the same way that (for example) Orlanth "owns" the Air Rune, or Ernalda the Earth Rune... maybe neither Sedenya nor Anilla (nor Zaytenera, nor any other color/name Moon deity) has quite so firm (or singular) a presence at Moonbroth...

[Snork]

On 4/8/2020 at 3:08 PM, Nick Brooke said:

I'll have some unofficial thoughts about at least a couple of groups of post-Lunar Sables in my Moonbroth Oasis sourcebook. Should be finished this year, if I can stop writing other scenarios long enough to make progress with it...

How's the book progressing?

[Nick Brooke]

1 minute ago, ajs said:

How's the book progressing?

Still writing other scenarios, thanks for asking. You can pick up the Gold best-sellers “The Duel at Dangerford” and “Black Spear” from the Jonstown Compendium, and I hope to have ”Crimson King” finished this year. (It’s the convention scenario I ran at Chaosium Con, fleshed out and arted up)

[Darius West]

On 4/7/2022 at 9:06 PM, g33k said:

Hmmm.  It has suddenly struck me that the Moon Rune (long known as an odd, tricksy, slippery thing) might not be "held" or "owned" in the same way that (for example) Orlanth "owns" the Air Rune, or Ernalda the Earth Rune... maybe neither Sedenya nor Anilla (nor Zaytenera, nor any other color/name Moon deity) has quite so firm (or singular) a presence at Moonbroth...

There isn't a separate moon rune for Anilla and Sedenya.  I think that just as when Orlanth died, the Air Rune went to Valind, when Sedenya became Gerra, the moon rune went to Anilla.  I also think the Air is more slippery than a great big clod of Dara Happan earth.  YGMV of course, but I think Sedenya owns the Moon rune in much the same way other deities do, even if she is basically a chaos deity.

[g33k]

14 hours ago, Darius West said:

...  YGMV of course, but I think Sedenya owns the Moon rune in much the same way other deities do, even if she is basically a chaos deity.

The thing is:  not all deities do.

Plenty of Earth deities, but Ernalda has "ownership" of Earth in ways most others do not.
Orlanth "owns" Air, and Humakt "owns" Death, in ways that Storm Bull does not.

So I'm wondering if "Moon" might not be a particularly-challenging Rune to "own" in that same way ...

[David Scott]

16 minutes ago, g33k said:

Plenty of Earth deities, but Ernalda has "ownership" of Earth in ways most others do not.

Ernalda is the Earth

16 minutes ago, g33k said:

Orlanth "owns" Air,

Orlanth is the Air

16 minutes ago, g33k said:

and Humakt "owns" Death

Humakt is Death

16 minutes ago, g33k said:

in ways that Storm Bull does not.

Storm Bull is a part of Death

16 minutes ago, g33k said:

So I'm wondering if "Moon" might not be a particularly-challenging Rune to "own" in that same way ...

The Red Goddess is Moon

Annilla is the Moon

She Who Waits is the Moon

 

[Revilo Divad Of Dyoll]

46 minutes ago, David Scott said:

The Red Goddess is Moon

Annilla is the Moon

She Who Waits is the Moon

We are all the Moon.

[Darius West]

14 hours ago, g33k said:

The thing is:  not all deities do.

I'm sorry, I don't find your argument compelling, based on the evidence.  I can only see a moon rune that behaves like other runes in terms of its succession.  Now while the rune moves in cycles and allegedly the Moon goddess herself is following a similar trajectory, we know that she becomes dispossessed of that power at her lowest ebb, and the rune transfers to other moon powered deities, in the normal fashion of succession.  I don't see much need to complicate the matter, or evidence to suggest it is warranted.

13 hours ago, Revilo Divad Of Dyoll said:

We are all the Moon.

The thing about absolutes is that they are meaningless.  If 'we are all the moon', then it is equally true to say that 'nobody is the moon'.

14 hours ago, David Scott said:

Ernalda is the Earth

Orlanth is the Air

Humakt is Death

Storm Bull is a part of Death

The Red Goddess is Moon

Annilla is the Moon

She Who Waits is the Moon

I suspect this position has a lot to do with how one chooses to conceive of Gloranthan deities.  Are they primal elemental entities or narrative characters in myths with recognizably 'human' reactions and personalities, a combination of both, or something else again? YGWV with everyone else's, just as mine does.  it is actually quite hard to pin down definitionally what a deity is without becoming trite, or obfuscatory, or making any number of other 'sins' of omission or commission.

There are also many ways to potentially view and understand the connection between a rune and the deity who is its primary owner.  Yes, Orlanth may be the air, but when he dies, suddenly Valind is the air, and that makes a mockery of the idea that Orlanth is the air imo, because if Orlanth was the air, then the air would surely die with him, but it doesn't.

For my part I prefer to view the primary rune ownerships as being a form of 'demiurgery', where the deity in question becomes one of the owners of the keys of creation, and the prime mystagogue for the forces of that rune.  Obviously holding the central mystery of the rune may bestow respect and leadership within one's pantheon, but the reach doesn't go much beyond that.  For example, Thanatar has 4 runes but I doubt he respects the present holders of those primary runes much; even the chaos rune.

[Revilo Divad Of Dyoll]

6 hours ago, Darius West said:

The thing about absolutes is that they are meaningless.  If 'we are all the moon', then it is equally true to say that 'nobody is the moon'.

Add +1% to your chance of illumination next sacred time.

[JRE]

I see the "ownership" of a rune as a kind of ultimate power. If you make a conflict of Air, the owner of the rune, or their representatives, should overcome any other users of the rune. However, let's remember that the owner may change, and conversely, if you visit the Godtime when Umath is still active, he will be the owner of the Air rune, not Orlanth.

I expect this was a God Learner concept, as in heroquests, it was advantageous to personify the so called owner of the Rune, as that gave them an edge in runic contests. So a kind of who had the advantage if you faced different rune users.

The Moon was not very important back then, and the Middle Seas Empire did not have access to many Lunar myths. So they never really worried about who owned what for them was a minor rune.

Depending how important you want to make the GLs, they may have created the whole concept of ownership, rather than just discovering it. 

[Darius West]

16 hours ago, Revilo Divad Of Dyoll said:

Add +1% to your chance of illumination next sacred time.

Nope.  Truths expressed by Boolean Logic have no place in illumination, because illumination must reject all rational thought, ergo as my argument is based in a form of mathematics, it is rational, and therefore nothing to do with illumination.

[Nick Brooke]

Weird take, given that we know Illumination frees you from the irrational, unthinking fear of Chaos. YGWV, I guess.

[Darius West]

1 hour ago, Nick Brooke said:

Weird take, given that we know Illumination frees you from the irrational, unthinking fear of Chaos. YGWV, I guess.

Any sane person should hate chaos as it is the cancer of the Goddess Glorantha and threatens the life of the world.  If you think that having no FEAR of chaos is illumination then every good Stormbull is an illuminate.  As to the irrational and unthinking component, well, isn't irrationality the very core of illumination?  Exterminate all rational thought etc?

This double-think is paralyzing to the average mind that tries to parse such alleged mysticism, and that is a deliberate tool of state control used by the madness promulgating chaos worshiping Lunar Empire, and amounts to trying to baffle with BS.  Weakness is Strength.  Truth is Falsehood.  And the Lunar Empire is a boot stamping on a human face forever.

[Nick Brooke]

Darius: “Storm Bull cultists are the epitome of rational behaviour.”

Cults of Prax: “Normal people consider all worshippers of this cult to be mindless brutes, barely human, certainly deranged, and absolutely dangerous. These opinions are correct.”