The Fate of the Sable Tribe

[g33k]

Just now, Nick Brooke said:

I'm also relying on secondary sources (eg: MOB's updated Sun County history, which dates both Second Moonbroth and the sack of Pavis to Storm Season 1624). It seems easiest to say these events happened in the winter (campaigning) season in Prax from 1624/25, but if you want to squeeze everything into Sea Season 1625, be my guest. You know that I monkey around with the chronology as necessary in order to tell better stories, so just tell yourself I'm doing it here. No biggie.

I'm always willing to vary my Glorantha, and let others vary theirs.  😁

I do prefer to know when I am "varying my Glorantha," though; and I'd rather not vary it from sheer ignorance... at least, no more than necessary (i.e. not interrupting a game to do a deep dive into the Guide, cross-referencing the Sourcebook and the Well of Dalliath, and a site-search of BRPC, plus Google /r/glorantha, and visiting 3 FB groups (awakening my players after I'm done)).

[g33k]

3 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

I could add these events as an alternative track for your adventurers' history in my Moonbroth book! Thanks for the suggestion! 

😁

Always happy to help a member of the Tribe !

[David Scott]

5 hours ago, g33k said:

Well of Dalliath's timeline has 1st Moonbroth, but not 2nd:

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/gloranthan-documents/timeline-dragonpass/

I suppose it may even be a matter on which Canon is not yet (clearly) established ... ?

From 1997

I'm happy to put up revised articles or revised sections of articles.

[Nick Brooke]

7 minutes ago, g33k said:

I'm always willing to vary my Glorantha, and let others vary theirs.  😁

I do prefer to know when I am "varying my Glorantha," though; and I'd rather not vary it from sheer ignorance... 

I'm sorry if my sheer ignorance offends you.

[g33k]

49 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

I'm sorry if my sheer ignorance offends you.

If you have any ignorance, I am unqualified to detect it.  I spoke strictly of my own!

Apologies if it seemed otherwise.

[Bran the Brainless]

On 4/11/2020 at 4:27 AM, g33k said:

This thread places Moonbroth II in 1624 (it's pretty detailed):

https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/11209-pre-dragonrise-timeline-of-sartar-and-prax/

@Bran the Brainless (the author) may have sourced no-longer-canonical resources, or made a best-guess timing that turns out to be erroneous; but the specific source of this element isn't given.

 

Well of Dalliath's timeline has 1st Moonbroth, but not 2nd:

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/gloranthan-documents/timeline-dragonpass/

 

I suppose it may even be a matter on which Canon is not yet (clearly) established ... ?

 

Hello, 

information for the timeline came from a compilation from, King of Sartar, Guide to Glorantha, Glorantha Sourcebook, Timelines in current and previous Rq Rulebooks and notes on Sun County from Jeff (in a thread somewhere on here).

asaik, it’s canon, but as is typical with the amount of published books, some dates do move around a little. I researched this to help with my campaign’s future event. So, unless the players do something spectacular/inept, I’ll be sticking along with it.

[Nick Brooke]

2 hours ago, Bran the Brainless said:

information for the timeline came from a compilation from, King of Sartar, Guide to Glorantha, Glorantha Sourcebook, Timelines in current and previous Rq Rulebooks and notes on Sun County from Jeff (in a thread somewhere on here).

asaik, it’s canon, but as is typical with the amount of published books, some dates do move around a little. I researched this to help with my campaign’s future event. So, unless the players do something spectacular/inept, I’ll be sticking along with it.

Here's MOB's chronology (an extract from The Great Winter and the Time of Two Counts), with Second Moonbroth in Storm Season 1624.

 

[g33k]

8 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

...

Here's MOB's chronology (an extract from The Great Winter and the Time of Two Counts), with Second Moonbroth in Storm Season 1624.

...

This seems like a pretty authoritative source!  TYVM!  Unfortunately, it conflicts with the RQG corebook...

In itself, it doesn't actually matter that much.  I don't see much reason to care, mostly.  There's a few knock-on issues, though; those actually matter more, IMHO, than the direct datum.

For those to whom it matters, this will need to be reconciled:  RQG needs to be errata'ed, or the draft of SunCounty-2 (TGWatToTC?) will need to be revised before publication... or campaigns will just need to choose which "canonical" date they prefer.

I launched into this tangent specifically in response to the notion that the Sables might have schim'ed at 2nd Moonbroth in large part because the Dragonrise made it look like the Lunars might finally be loosing it.  I mean -- why DID so many of them choose  that moment  to go anti-Lunar?  (as an explanation, the Dragonrise has a huge advantage there -- nobody wants to be allied to whoever made a dragon angry!).

[Nick Brooke]

15 minutes ago, g33k said:

... the notion that the Sables might have schim'ed at 2nd Moonbroth in large part because the Dragonrise made it look like the Lunars might finally be loosing it.  I mean -- why DID so many of them choose  that moment  to go anti-Lunar?  (as an explanation, the Dragonrise has a huge advantage there -- nobody wants to be allied to whoever made a dragon angry!).

Wouldn't it be cooler if there was a non-obvious reason for the second Sable Betrayal?

[g33k]

4 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

Wouldn't it be cooler if there was a non-obvious reason for the second Sable Betrayal?

Dunno.  Depends on the reason, I guess.  😉  

Leaving it ambiguous has the VERY distinct advantage of encouraging Everyones' Glorantha's to Vary.

I mean... for those anal-retentive enough to notice this as an oddity, and who care enough to create this bit of backstory.

It's rather Prax-centric, I think...  most of Dragon Pass isn't going to care about some battle over an obscure oasis in the desert; nor Esrolians, and etc.

 

[Nick Brooke]

17 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

Wouldn't it be cooler if there was a non-obvious reason for the second Sable Betrayal?

I'll float something that might work for some discerning GMs in my Moonbroth Oasis sourcebook, but obviously you do you. (My sourcebook will be exactly as careful with chronology as my scenario was, because I think people need to learn not to let that shit hobble their ideas)

[jajagappa]

On 4/11/2020 at 1:58 AM, g33k said:

the RQG passage (as cited by @metcalph) places 2nd Moonbroth in 1625

There's only one reference to 2nd Moonbroth in 1625 in RQG. Given where it occurs, I believe it's an oversight and should have been 1624.

That's also consistent with the map in the Guide p.733 where Argrath is at Jaldon's Rest in 1624 then marches towards Pavis.  Moonbroth would have been in the path.

In 1625, after Pavis is liberated, Argrath marches back towards Sartar, is met and defeated near Hender's Ruins.

[David Scott]

This is one of the main reasons not to pin stuff down exactly. As @Nick Brooke said 

1 hour ago, Nick Brooke said:

Wouldn't it be cooler if there was a non-obvious reason for the second Sable Betrayal?

The answer is clearly yes. It also stops the players from meta-gaming. The only people who will actually know what's going on are those involved. Players looking in can make their own wild theories. They don't have to be correct. Many a time have I changed a plot to what the players have made up rather than use what I thought should of been going on. 

[Oracle]

12 hours ago, jajagappa said:

There's only one reference to 2nd Moonbroth in 1625 in RQG. Given where it occurs, I believe it's an oversight and should have been 1624.

That's also consistent with the map in the Guide p.733 where Argrath is at Jaldon's Rest in 1624 then marches towards Pavis.  Moonbroth would have been in the path.

In 1625, after Pavis is liberated, Argrath marches back towards Sartar, is met and defeated near Hender's Ruins.

Hhm, but there is this entry in the Glorantha Sourcebook, which I've mentioned earlier in this thread already ...

[David Scott]

Here's the map of Argrath's route I used in my playtests for 1624. My players added in a lot of the detail, like going to Pimpers Block, Henders Ruins, & Winter Ruins because they saw it as making sense. They were playing Sables from the pro-Lunar phratry (not headed by Inire). 

Firstly take note of the scale, hex is 5 miles/8 km. Travel times are not huge in this region. The story here may differ from what you play out but here are my basics:

Fire Season

• Argrath leaves the Hill of Orlanth Victorious with his entourage.
• At Jaldon's Rest, his group enters the hill on Godsday/Death week into the Goddesses' Dream HeroQuest, returning Eiritha/Ernalda's holy day on Clayday/Fertlity week
• Then on to Pimpers Block
• Henders ruins
• Days Rest 
• The Block (picks up Storm Bulls) (SB Holy day Stasis week/waterday)
• Tourney Altar (picks up the Swordbrothers) (Orlanth Rex High Holy Day)

Earth Season

• The tribes start to converge
• Argrath holds court
• The Paps. Fertility Week/Clayday Eiritha/Ernalda High HolyDay.

Dark Season

• The Paps. Waha's High Holy Day, Jaldon (Waha) is pulled from the earth by Earth Witch (Part of Waha and the Goddess heroquest) (Freezeday, Fertility week)
• Most Respected Elder declares Armistice of Prax broken, Inire the Red declared outlaw.
• The group moves out from the Paps.

Storm Season

• Winter ruins (ally Darkness spirits)
• Moonbroth II second battle, just after SB High Holy Day
• Then onto the Pavis Road at Obscure Plinth (for some Dragon stuff)
• Paring Stone (Orlanth High Holy Day)
• Then Pavis and the siege of Pavis.

Sacred Time

Edited April 15, 2020 by David Scott

[Nick Brooke]

4 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Here's the map of Argrath's route I used in my playtests for 1624. My players added in a lot of the detail, like going to Pimpers Block, Henders Ruins, & Winter Ruins because they saw it as making sense. They were playing Sables from the pro-Lunar phratry (not headed by Inire).

That is brilliant, David. Thank you for sharing. As far as I'm concerned, this is canonical, and I'll be leveraging it for my own games and scenarios.

[Nick Brooke]

I would like to know more about crossing the Dead Place in the Praxian midwinter. Was that just about getting to the Winter Ruins, or was there some evasion / counter-surveillance thing going on (to avoid magical Lunar scrutiny, perhaps)?

[David Scott]

6 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

I would like to know more about crossing the Dead Place in the Praxian midwinter. Was that just about getting to the Winter Ruins, or was there some evasion / counter-surveillance thing going on (to avoid magical Lunar scrutiny, perhaps)?

Most of the Praxians went round (south-western side), Argrath, Storm Bulls, Morokanth shaman, slightly bonkers player group, etc, went through.

To avoid the whole Dead place issue, it was done as HeroQuest - Waha and the White Princess. Hardship in the Great Darkness across a place sacred to Storm Bull, a prelude to I fought we won. Heavy snow falls, the party splinters in the gusts - Argrath was in one of the other groups...  Epic battle with Thed on the way allowing one of the singular Sable Storm Bull  to be struck down and resurrect with Earthpower (this is where the Gods War figures are handy - sadly SB is in the second wave with Wakboth). They sought the Winter Ruins as a place of refuge in the long night. Then had to entreat with the White Princess and the other Darkness spirits there for refuge and help (there was a bit of Frozen I as well). The shaman in the group joined the Shadow people society (home of Praxian darkness spirits) as a result. Most of the places that Argrath visited on the map was solely for the purpose of gaining allies. Argrath has shaman powers, the White Bull spirit is his fetch. With the White Princess onboard, he could make it snow.

There was little thought of evading the Lunars. They were Lunarised Sable Riders! Once they'd joined with the White Bull, they felt much better. Moonbroth was where their home clan was. They led the other Praxians to Moonbroth (that being said, most did not take part in Moonbroth II).

[scott-martin]

14 minutes ago, David Scott said:

To avoid the whole Dead place issue, it was done as HeroQuest - Waha and the White Princess. Hardship in the Great Darkness across a place sacred to Storm Bull, a prelude to I fought we won. Heavy snow falls, the party splinters in the gusts - Argrath was in one of the other groups...  Epic battle with Thed on the way allowing one of the singular Sable Storm Bull  to be struck down and resurrect with Earthpower (this is where the Gods War figures are handy - sadly SB is in the second wave with Wakboth). They sought the Winter Ruins as a place of refuge in the long night. Then had to entreat with the White Princess and the other Darkness spirits there for refuge and help (there was a bit of Frozen I as well). The shaman in the group joined the Shadow people society (home of Praxian darkness spirits) as a result. Most of the places that Argrath visited on the map was solely for the purpose of gaining allies. Argrath has shaman powers, the White Bull spirit is his fetch. With the White Princess onboard, he could make it snow.

Top post of the season easy. Thanks.

The "heroic movement" trick seems to be burbling up in a lot of places these days. I love it. Why trudge on through unpleasant Middle World terrain when you can walk the weirding way and go under. Besides, nobody in the Dead Place to join up on the victory tour.

The Inora tantra here is also extremely useful. Cold never bothered her anyway but her seclusion makes the rest of us thirsty.

 

[Jose]

On 4/8/2020 at 7:10 PM, David Scott said:

To be clear, this originates after the Lunars get involved, before then it was never really thought as a fixed number.

There were many sable daughters in the stories, some never founded phratries. Combine this with the numbers of Sables at the Dawn:

Roughly 500 sables, split into 20 families grouped into 5 septs. It's these septs that become the phratries (only in the Sables). Later each phratry develops it's own septs. It's at this point that some families move out on the great migrations. During these times likely some discovered their own Sable Daughter, some establish successfully, others failed.

It was this fixing of numbers by the Lunars that was the kind of thing that the conservative groups saw as foreign and un-praxian. But the Lunars understood what they were doing, and after 15 years they had successfully changed the Sable religion.

Is the magic of those conservative Stables still cyclical. I mean, is Benison spell cyclical for traditionalist Stables. 

[David Scott]

10 hours ago, Jose said:

Is the magic of those conservative Stables still cyclical. I mean, is Benison spell cyclical for traditionalist Stables. 

Yes. I would suggest that Bension came with the Hungry Plateau Sables and before that, the Twin Stars only gave Charisma (and maybe a less effective version of Benison or different spell).

[Jose]

4 hours ago, David Scott said:

Yes. I would suggest that Bension came with the Hungry Plateau Sables and before that, the Twin Stars only gave Charisma (and maybe a less effective version of Benison or different spell).

Only Charisma? I mean, for a mate of eiritha and ancestor of a whole Tribe, offers less magic that black fang for example. Just surprised, I am fine with twin stars giving only charisma. 

Thanks. 

[David Scott]

1 hour ago, Jose said:

Only Charisma? I mean, for a mate of eiritha and ancestor of a whole Tribe, offers less magic that black fang for example. Just surprised, I am fine with twin stars giving only charisma. 

Thanks. 

Only Charisma before 1608, both after. Bear in mind that the most of the other founders give nothing, except the ability to be summoned (per Call Founder), their worship is subsumed by Storm Bull (who is their father). The Twin Stars aren't related to Storm Bull so survive as a spirit cult, along with two other founders, the Good Shepherd and the Father of Independents). See Cults of Prax & Nomad Gods.

[Jose]

5 hours ago, David Scott said:

Only Charisma before 1608, both after. Bear in mind that the most of the other founders give nothing, except the ability to be summoned (per Call Founder), their worship is subsumed by Storm Bull (who is their father). The Twin Stars aren't related to Storm Bull so survive as a spirit cult, along with two other founders, the Good Shepherd and the Father of Independents). See Cults of Prax & Nomad Gods.

Oh, OK. It is that I think is very interesting for roleplaying how those Sable traditionalist operate in a Lunar Prax and the answers they may seek. Particularly Roneer the hue point of view about the Sable conversion. Sorry if I explain myself poorly but English is not my language. 

I have been reading other posts, yours particularly about praxian tradition. I asume that the Charisma spell is only from (hidden ancestor-twin stars moon+fire Runes) spirit cult not the spells available from the Twin Stars spirit society. Am I correct? 

Thanks

Edited April 3, 2022 by Jose

[David Scott]

11 hours ago, Jose said:

I have been reading other posts, yours particularly about praxian tradition. I asume that the Charisma spell is only from (hidden ancestor-twin stars moon+fire Runes) spirit cult not the spells available from the Twin Stars spirit society. Am I correct? 

Yes, but remember that all of this was written for HeroQuest Glorantha. In RQG terms the Twinstars have different runes. Bension is straightforward as it uses the Moon rune, but Charisma uses Life, Illusion, Beast. This is the same in the upcoming Cults of Glorantha. I would allow Charisma to be used with the Fire rune.