The Fate of the Sable Tribe

[g33k]

Is it the case that -- for all "Praxian" Nomad Tribes, whatever Beast they herd -- the majority of the Tribe-members (and Herds) spend most of their time  outside of Prax, in the "Wastes" to the east of the Zola Fel valley?  Vulture Country & beyond...

Hmmm.  I see those "What my Father Told Me" quotes.  Hmmm.

===

Is this NEW canon???

Elsethread, @David Scott said (a couple of years ago):

Quote

Most clans have at least a single season within Prax as part of their migration pattern

(https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/7595-pavis-county-prax-and-the-zola-fel-1622-1627/?do=findComment&comment=106133)

===

I had always envisioned that region -- the Wastelands beyond Vulture Country -- as where outlaws and exiles were forced... and of course the losers of particularly-sharp conflicts.  Maybe even a whole Tribe, if they badly lost to a rival Tribe!

I had pictured most of the Sables coming to Prax after  Moonbroth I,  joining in on the whole "victorious swagger-around, lording it over all the other Tribes" vibe... likely exiling their particular rivals&foes (individuals, clans, even an entire Tribe or two!) to the Wastes, yes.

===

I'm not sure I  believe  in a vision of the ultra-hostile Wastelands supporting the majority of the Tribes, full-time.  Those two WmFTM quotes, above, suggest  (on average, & presuming most tribes are similar to Bison&Sable in this) a visit one year out of 50ish (ten hands, +/-1) -- and don't suggest a full year of residence, but a short visit... a season or two? -- but let's take 1 in 50.

That's 2% Praxian, 98% Wastelands.  REALLY?

I mean, I know the Wastes are "bigger" than Prax.  But not fifty-fold bigger!  And certainly, they don't support comparable numbers of foraging Beasts!

===

@David Scott -- I know you've got some solid work in on the Tribes' size & composition.  Are your numbers for the Praxian elements specifically?  Are there fifty-fold more Nomads off in the Wastes?  Or are your numbers for the entirety of the Tribes, and only 1/50th of the numbers you cite will be visiting Prax at any given time?

Or...?

TYVM!

 

(edit:  I just spotted an "A is to B as..." simile, and developed a vile and unworthy suspicion about one or more of the authors, my fellow-fans... I think one of the early Voices writers suffered a brainfart, and conflated  Wastes:Prax with Prax:Paps.  It is the Paps that is the Holy Place, only rarely visited.  There's a similar "an order of magnitude better" -- the Wastes are deadly, Prax is hard, the Paps are easy.  I think someone writing the Voices pieces just ooops'ed on this, maybe propagating the error downstream (or just copypasta) thereafter.)

Edited April 9, 2020 by g33k

[Nick Brooke]

  

1 hour ago, g33k said:

Is it the case that -- for all "Praxian" Nomad Tribes, whatever Beast they herd -- the majority of the Tribe-members (and Herds) spend most of their time  outside of Prax, in the "Wastes" to the east of the Zola Fel valley?  Vulture Country & beyond...

Hmmm.  I see those "What my Father Told Me" quotes.  Hmmm ... Is this NEW canon???

Canon since 1988. Earlier if you talked to Greg or Sandy before the Orange Box came out, of course.

 

1 hour ago, g33k said:

I had always envisioned that region -- the Wastelands beyond Vulture Country -- as where outlaws and exiles were forced... and of course the losers of particularly-sharp conflicts.  Maybe even a whole Tribe, if they badly lost to a rival Tribe! ... I'm not sure I  believe  in a vision of the ultra-hostile Wastelands supporting the majority of the Tribes, full-time. 

Vulture's Country is one of the harshest parts of the Wastelands. That's why the Praxian animal nomads didn't migrate out into the Wastes proper until the Pure Horse People forced them out, back in the Second Age.

I hope this helps. (You really should get the Guide to Glorantha, it would clear up a lot of misconceptions)

[Nick Brooke]

Oh, and to be clear: nobody is getting confused between the Sacred Ground (around the Paps) and Holy Prax (west of the Zola Fel).

[g33k]

41 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

...

I hope this helps. (You really should get the Guide to Glorantha, it would clear up a lot of misconceptions)

I've got the Guide, I just haven't read the whole thing; in particular, I obviously need to read / re-read all of the material on Prax & the Wastelands.

 

(and then, as noted in my Q's to David about the apparent 50:1 Wastes:Prax population ratio, decide if I need to YGWV the hell out of this)

 

Edited April 9, 2020 by g33k

[David Scott]

Lots of different questions and comments here. So separately

2 hours ago, g33k said:

Is it the case that -- for all "Praxian" Nomad Tribes, whatever Beast they herd -- the majority of the Tribe-members (and Herds) spend most of their time  outside of Prax, in the "Wastes" to the east of the Zola Fel valley?  Vulture Country & beyond...

Firstly just based on the overall number of clans, there is going to be a larger proportion of cans outside of Prax than inside. Then add in:

• The Pol-Joni pushing the Bison, High Llamas and Sable out of their ancestral grazings.
• The 1572 debacle at Pavis, further restricting the tribes.
• The Lunar invasion and defeat of the Bison and Impalas.
• Of the other tribes, only the Morokanth have their ancestral grazing in Prax, the Baboons and Agimori also have ancestral lands there.

They've got to go somewhere - East over the Zola Fel.

2 hours ago, g33k said:

Hmmm.  I see those "What my Father Told Me" quotes.  Hmmm.

These are only two clans, so personally I see great variation in what actually happens. Ranging from "I have never in my life seen the rich pastures of the Paps" to "Our clan is the spirit Rock clan, we visit the Paps every season to support our most respect clan member Egajia, chewer of flesh. And everything in-between.

These are great colour for games and a great basis to start from.

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/catalogue/publishers/issaries/heroquest-voices/

[David Scott]

3 hours ago, g33k said:

Is this NEW canon???

Elsethread, @David Scott said (a couple of years ago):

Quote

Most clans have at least a single season within Prax as part of their migration pattern

(https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/7595-pavis-county-prax-and-the-zola-fel-1622-1627/?do=findComment&comment=106133)

This was before the RQG of 1625. When players create their praxian clans, they marked the seasonal rune on the AAA prax and Waste map (magic rune for Sacred time). That was the annual migration map for the clan. They then decided how often they would visit the Paps (roughly 2-50 years) and figured out where they were in that cycle. I alway advised that at least one season was in Prax as that was where all the Lunar action was. However now, most have changed their patterns back to what they were before the lunars. Many High Llamas and Bison are taking advantage of visiting their ancestral lands with the rise of Argrath (and his High Llama mates).

The bottom line is that if you are playing Praxians in a Praxian clan, your migration route should fit with the type of game you're playing.The paragraph after the one you quoted said:

Quote

 

I wonder whether clans inside the windstop all gravitate towards the Paps, or whether they go to the Hidden Greens instead.

Nearly all the clans headed over the river into the wastes. Those that stayed, like some the sable phratries relied on other magics to help them. Only the oasis folk and the Most Respected Elder's clan would be in the paps, perhaps with another guest clan. it's likely that the Paps Khan and Storm Khan were out fighting chaos. Story hook.

Some clans that left late attempted the dangerous route Through Vultures Country. Story hook.

A few Pol-Joni clans also went into the Wastes. Story hook.

 

[g33k]

1 minute ago, David Scott said:

The paragraph after the one you quoted said:

...

That was specific to the Windstop, though; which I do NOT count as normative!

 

[David Scott]

3 hours ago, g33k said:

I had always envisioned that region -- the Wastelands beyond Vulture Country -- as where outlaws and exiles were forced... and of course the losers of particularly-sharp conflicts.  Maybe even a whole Tribe, if they badly lost to a rival Tribe!

You've fallen for the greatest piece of Praxian propaganda. Yes Vulture Country is desolate and bad, but beyond is the promised land. The Palace grazings call.

3 hours ago, g33k said:

I had pictured most of the Sables coming to Prax after  Moonbroth I,  joining in on the whole "victorious swagger-around, lording it over all the other Tribes" vibe... likely exiling their particular rivals&foes (individuals, clans, even an entire Tribe or two!) to the Wastes, yes.

Only those who were led by a victorious swagger-around, lording it over all the other Tribes leader, like Inire the Red. Not everyone thinks the Lunar way is the right way for all Praxian Sables. Politics exists everywhere, the tribal khans have to work to keep there power positions. Don't forget the Sables are a matriarchal tribe, who is supporting Inire amongst the priestesses? Especially when he wasn't' supporting the Most Respected Elder at the Paps and no spirits of retribution appeared to keep him in check.

[David Scott]

3 hours ago, g33k said:

I'm not sure I  believe  in a vision of the ultra-hostile Wastelands supporting the majority of the Tribes, full-time.

Not ultra hostile - just hostile in Fire season . The Wastes are chaparral. Some areas really are desert, like the Copper Sands. 

3 hours ago, g33k said:

Those two WmFTM quotes, above, suggest  (on average, & presuming most tribes are similar to Bison&Sable in this) a visit one year out of 50ish (ten hands, +/-1) -- and don't suggest a full year of residence, but a short visit... a season or two? -- but let's take 1 in 50.

That's 2% Praxian, 98% Wastelands.  REALLY?

No those are your numbers. I'd say it constantly varies. Maybe from 1%/99% to 75%/25%, depending on circumstances.

3 hours ago, g33k said:

I mean, I know the Wastes are "bigger" than Prax.  But not fifty-fold bigger!  And certainly, they don't support comparable numbers of foraging Beasts!

Easily.

[David Scott]

19 minutes ago, g33k said:

That was specific to the Windstop, though; which I do NOT count as normative!

That's to demonstrate that 99% could move into the wastes for at least 2 years.

[David Scott]

3 hours ago, g33k said:

@David Scott -- I know you've got some solid work in on the Tribes' size & composition.  Are your numbers for the Praxian elements specifically?

Entirety of the tribes.

3 hours ago, g33k said:

  Are there fifty-fold more Nomads off in the Wastes?

 I'd say it constantly varies season by season. Maybe from 1%/99% to 75%/25%, depending on circumstances, year, season, event. Like the 8th time the entire Sable tribe (45k) went to the Paps in 1452 when their High Priestess became the Most Respect Elder (The first time in 84 there were only 700 of them).

3 hours ago, g33k said:

Or are your numbers for the entirety of the Tribes, and only 1/50th of the numbers you cite will be visiting Prax at any given time?

see above. Being nomads they move around all the time with maybe a hex or so variation per season from their established paths (some wander more).

[Darius West]

On 4/9/2020 at 10:22 AM, g33k said:

That stuff will be no part of their calculus of pragmatic side-switching.

I don't entirely disagree with what you are saying, don't get me wrong on that, it's just that the Praxians HAVE seen what the Empire brought when they came to Prax in 1610.  I don't think it was enough to just have Argrath present, and the society present, I think what likely turned everyone's loyalty was the Dragonrise.  It would have been visible from Prax, and that would have been pretty alarming to witness.

[scott-martin]

On 4/9/2020 at 4:37 PM, David Scott said:

The Palace grazings call.

You are making a Deep Wastes campaign extremely compelling. The endless sky, the rhythm of camp and the knotted "song lines," the web of random spirit encounters. If I didn't know better I'd think someone (probably Bruce Chatwin) slipped me a hyena . . . but doing the math, even if only 75% of the clans are beyond Zola Fel at any given time, there must be close to 7,000 Issaries Trackers out there living Biturian's dream. I wonder how fast a message can promulgate across "all" of them. 

We have the map down to the hex now. We can statistically find out. And beyond, the ancient East.

Edited April 11, 2020 by scott-martin

[g33k]

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

I don't entirely disagree with what you are saying, don't get me wrong on that, it's just that the Praxians HAVE seen what the Empire brought when they came to Prax in 1610.  I don't think it was enough to just have Argrath present, and the society present, I think what likely turned everyone's loyalty was the Dragonrise.  It would have been visible from Prax, and that would have been pretty alarming to witness.

I thought "Second Moonbroth" happened before the Dragonrise...?  So the fateful Sable decision happened without knowing of this event.

 

[jajagappa]

13 minutes ago, g33k said:

I thought "Second Moonbroth" happened before the Dragonrise...?

Argrath is defeated by the Lunars before the Dragonrise, but I don't think that was the 2nd Battle of Moonbroth.

[g33k]

3 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Argrath is defeated by the Lunars before the Dragonrise, but I don't think that was the 2nd Battle of Moonbroth.

I'm pretty sure Argrath had a prior failed attempt on Sartar, that was unrelated to either the Dragonrise or Moonbroth.

Then 2nd Moonbroth.

Then Dragonrise.

Hrm... Is there a nice tight timeline of the middle 1620s somewhere?  Besides @Jeff's brain, I mean?  (the Thanatari solution seems... excessive... just to answer the one question)

[metcalph]

1625

Quote

With the White Bull Society behind him, Argrath liberated Pavis from the Lunar Empire and was proclaimed King of Pavis.  Argrath led his Praxian allies to Dragon Pass but was defeated by Lunar sorcery and retreated to Pavis. 

RuneQuest p43

This is the demon with two arms and an extra one , which turns out to be a poetic/garbled description of Cwm.  It is rolled into the Liberation of Pavis table which this is a possible result.

Quote

Nearly killed or temporarily driven insane
by Lunar demons when the Praxians came to
Dragon Pass to destroy the New Lunar Temple.
Gain Hate (Lunar Empire) and add +10% to
Spirit Combat.

RuneQuest p43

The second battle of Moonbroth is mentioned

Quote

Moonbroth was the location
of the decisive battle where the White Bull and his Praxians
defeated the Lunar Army in 1625.

RuneQuest p125

The battle is also mentioned indirectly with the implication that it was a victory.

Quote

Yazurkial recognized Vishi
and I with a nod—I last saw him at Moonbroth
after he decapitated Sitzmag Redmoon and made
a drinking cup out of his skull.

RuneQuest Glorantha p235

Wot I think happened is that the Whitebull Army defeated the Lunars in a conventional battle at Moonbroth where they took heavy losses.  Vasana's saga mentions thisThey then tried to march on the supposedly defenceless New Lunar Temple and had an unfortunate encounter with Cwm (who had Lunar magical support) where they did not fare so well.  

Edited April 11, 2020 by metcalph

[g33k]

This thread places Moonbroth II in 1624 (it's pretty detailed):

https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/11209-pre-dragonrise-timeline-of-sartar-and-prax/

@Bran the Brainless (the author) may have sourced no-longer-canonical resources, or made a best-guess timing that turns out to be erroneous; but the specific source of this element isn't given.

 

Well of Dalliath's timeline has 1st Moonbroth, but not 2nd:

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/gloranthan-documents/timeline-dragonpass/

 

I suppose it may even be a matter on which Canon is not yet (clearly) established ... ?

 

Edited April 11, 2020 by g33k

[metcalph]

1 hour ago, g33k said:

I suppose it may even be a matter on which Canon is not yet (clearly) established ... ?

RuneQuest: Glorantha is pretty canonical. 

[Nick Brooke]

The sequence goes: the Second Battle of Moonbroth (in late 1624) is an overwhelming victory for the nomad army led by Argrath White Bull and Jaldon Goldentooth (and marked by yet another Sable Tribe betrayal, this time of the Lunars), after which (in early 1625 per RQG p.44) Argrath liberates Pavis.

In the summer of 1625, King Argrath of Pavis marches on Sartar leading a nomad horde, but gets defeated by Lunar sorcery and retreats to Pavis. The Dragonrise happens after that, and everyone attributes it to Kallyr Starbrow, not to Argrath.

I hope this helps.

Jeff's said recently (private chat) that in one of his current campaigns that defeat in 1625 happened at Hender's Ruins, that Cwim was involved (the GSB is vaguer), and that this defeat is when Argrath realised he'd need his own organisation of battle-magicians as well as a honking great army if he ever wanted to go toe-to-toe against the Lunar Empire.

[g33k]

28 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

The sequence goes: the Second Battle of Moonbroth (in late 1624) is an overwhelming victory for the nomad army led by Argrath White Bull and Jaldon Goldentooth (and marked by yet another Sable Tribe betrayal, this time of the Lunars), after which (in early 1625 per RQG p.44) Argrath liberates Pavis.

In the summer of 1625, King Argrath of Pavis marches on Sartar leading a nomad horde, but gets defeated by Lunar sorcery and retreats to Pavis. The Dragonrise happens after that, and everyone attributes it to Kallyr Starbrow, not to Argrath.

I hope this helps.

Jeff's said recently (private chat) that in one of his current campaigns that defeat in 1625 happened at Hender's Ruins, that Cwim was involved (the GSB is vaguer), and that this defeat is when Argrath realised he'd need his own organisation of battle-magicians as well as a honking great army if he ever wanted to go toe-to-toe against the Lunar Empire.

No... the RQG passage (as cited by @metcalph) places 2nd Moonbroth in 1625:  it's the write-up in the Homelands section (on p.125), and it explicitly places the date.  Always possible that date is a typo, of course (Only Human, etc; the kind of thing likely to slip by in proofreading)... or even a "thinko" by @Jeff.

But until/unless errata'ed, or explicitly contradicted by later publications and/or by someone who'd know @Chaosium, I am inclined to believe this date.  As he says, RQG is pretty darned "canonical!"

Unless you're alleging your "2nd Moonbroth in 1624" timeline (above) has been explicitly stated/confirmed by Jeff...?

 

THAT SAID... 2nd Moonbroth doesn't get a satisfying treatment in the RQG corebook.  I'd expect it to be a Big Thing for Praxians (and some Lunars).  Pages 43/44/45 should have the battle (if not 1625, then clearly 1624)  for characters to have participated in!  That it's missing suggests to me that the timing HASN'T actually been carefully considered.

[Oracle]

The notion, that the Second Battle at Moonbroth happened in 1625 is supported by the Glorantha Sourcebook, it seems:

Quote

In Prax, Argrath White Bull and Jaldon Toothmaker
raised a huge nomad army and, after brushing aside the
Lunar army at Moonbroth, marched upon the city of Pavis.

(Glorantha Sourcebook, p.39, beginning of second paragraph

This description appears at the begin of the Dragonrise section after mentioning, that Tatius spent the Sacred Time before 1625 in secret ceremonies.

And the Dragonrise section starts after the listing of the events in 1624, which end with the assassination of Temertain in the winter of 1624.

So although not explicitly mentioned, I would read this in a way, which places the Second Battle at Moonbroth at the beginning of 1625 (i.e. Sea Season).

 

[Stew Stansfield]

3 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

... Argrath realised he'd need his own organisation of battle-magicians as well as a honking great army if he ever wanted to go toe-to-toe against the Lunar Empire.

*smoothes eyebrow*

[Nick Brooke]

I'm also relying on secondary sources (eg: MOB's updated Sun County history, which dates both Second Moonbroth and the sack of Pavis to Storm Season 1624). It seems easiest to say these events happened in the winter (campaigning) season in Prax from 1624/25, but if you want to squeeze everything into Sea Season 1625, be my guest. You know that I monkey around with the chronology as necessary in order to tell better stories, so just tell yourself I'm doing it here. No biggie.

[Nick Brooke]

2 hours ago, g33k said:

THAT SAID... 2nd Moonbroth doesn't get a satisfying treatment in the RQG corebook.  I'd expect it to be a Big Thing for Praxians (and some Lunars).  Pages 43/44/45 should have the battle (if not 1625, then clearly 1624)  for characters to have participated in!  That it's missing suggests to me that the timing HASN'T actually been carefully considered.

I could add these events as an alternative track for your adventurers' history in my Moonbroth book! Thanks for the suggestion!