BRP vs. MRQ & the OGL

[Kloster]

...

Actually it is that AH doesn't own the lisence. I wish games like DragonQuest and James Bond could get back into print, along with all the other games that TSR/WotC ate up and buried.

...

James Bond has not been killed by WotC, but by AH themselves when they closed Victory Games (along with some wargames).

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[Kloster]

...

Morally, I think the system (RQ) SHOULD belong to Steve Perrin, Ray Tourney and the others who wrote the rules. Legally, the RQ name belongs to Greg, BRP belongs to Chaosium, and the rules belong to no one.

...

The RQ rules have been written by Steve Perrin and Ray Turney (and another guy I don't remember the name), but belongs to Chaosium (as they are written). It was a kind of 'work on demand', like the work done by Mike Pondsmith for TSR on Buck Rodgers.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[Atgxtg]

The RQ rules have been written by Steve Perrin and Ray Turney (and another guy I don't remember the name), but belongs to Chaosium (as they are written). It was a kind of 'work on demand', like the work done by Mike Pondsmith for TSR on Buck Rodgers.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

No. Legally, the RQ name belongs to Greg (who paid for it) and is being used by Mongoose.

The rules actually belong to no one, since rule cannot be copywrited. Certain spefic terms and creatures can and are copywrited, but not the rules.

My point was that morally, since Steve (and others) wrote the rules, the rules SHOULD be theirs.

[Atgxtg]

James Bond has not been killed by WotC, but by AH themselves when they closed Victory Games (along with some wargames).

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

True. AH killed it (from what I've read AH got into some sort of dispute with Danjaq and EON that cost them the liscense). But, that AH was bought out by WotC, who have buried every RPG system in favor of d20 means the system won't see the light of day again.

[soltakss]

I write programs every day. Do they belong to me? Of course not, because I have a contract of employment that says that anything I write in the course of my employment belongs to my employer.

Presumably games writers have similar contracts, or they would do if they worked for me.

So, there's absolutely no moral dimension to game-ownership.

Writers write for a company, whether as employees, freelancers or whatever. They don't own the rights to the game. Authors of computer games don't own the games - games companies do. It's the same with roleplaying games.

Now, you can argue about the morality of that as long as you want, but it still doesn't change the fact that people work for other people.

So, get over the history, who owned what, who wrote what, who sold what to whom.

Look to the future.

It might be a good one, at least for a couple of years.

[Atgxtg]

Actually there are some differences. You can't copywrite/own a rule set. But you can copywrite own software.

Legally (and without a moral dimension the law is all that's left), anyone could use any RPG, take out the setting specific stuff and print it.

You can't do that with a game engine for a computer or console game.

As to the future.

It's still too soon to tell. It could be good, it could be very bad. So far, MRQ hasn't impressed me, and I doubt Chaosium can compete with Mongoose.

[fmitchell]

Actually there are some differences. You can't copywrite/own a rule set. But you can copywrite own software.

Minor nitpick: From my understanding of the law, copyright applies only to the program text; absent patents or contracts, there's nothing preventing you from reverse-engineering a program's function. That's how GNU and Linux were born. So software and rules systems are similar in that respect.

But in general, I see your point. Chaosium's business model revolves around its copyrights and trademarks. Unlike WotC, they don't have the deep pockets to risk some business, and unlike Evil Hat Games (who released a FATE SRD under the OGL) they're primarily a for-profit business. However, as mentioned above, they're also not like Steve Jackson Games, which actually has sufficient staff to write, edit and/or manage a large number of projects at once.

It's frustrating for me, though, because I'd like to see BRP prosper, but I honestly don't think Chaosium can grow their BRP business and maintain their eldritch cash cow at the same time.

[Atgxtg]

Minor nitpick: From my understanding of the law, copyright applies only to the program text; absent patents or contracts, there's nothing preventing you from reverse-engineering a program's function. That's how GNU and Linux were born. So software and rules systems are similar in that respect.

There is something that prevents you from reverse engineering a prgoram, the Digital Millennium Copywrite Act. The DMCA does other things too, not all of them beneficial.

But in general, I see your point. Chaosium's business model revolves around its copyrights and trademarks. Unlike WotC, they don't have the deep pockets to risk some business, and unlike Evil Hat Games (who released a FATE SRD under the OGL) they're primarily a for-profit business. However, as mentioned above, they're also not like Steve Jackson Games, which actually has sufficient staff to write, edit and/or manage a large number of projects at once.

It's frustrating for me, though, because I'd like to see BRP prosper, but I honestly don't think Chaosium can grow their BRP business and maintain their eldritch cash cow at the same time.

Yes, it is frustrating. But D20 has practically locked up the RPG market, and is the strongest contributor to the rules for computer RPGs too. BRP is essentially Betamax. Better technology, but with no chance of taking over the market.

WotC could hedge their bets, as they could outproduce pretty much all their competitors combined, and ensure that everyone bought a set of core rule books. Chaosium can't do either. OGL BRP would probably take Chaosium out of the BRP market. Just look at how much MRQ stuff Mongoose Publishing has managed to release in a year and a half. If they haven't surpassed Chaosium's total RQ output, they will. I think they only way Chaosium would desire to go OGL with BRP would be if they were going to abandon it, or if they could work out an arrangement with another company to get hybrid supplements.

A deal with Mongoose would probably be the best such scenario for Chaosium, but what would the appeal be to Mongoose? Right now Chasoium has no proprieties to offer or a hot product line. Mongoose has managed to secure Glorantha, and the Eternal Champion series without Chaosium.

Maybe in a few years if BRP takes off, Chaosium might have something to offer, but not right now. Right now their best best ids to get BRP out, try to get back their old customer base, and build upon it.

[fmitchell]

Forgot about the DMCA. I keep thinking it only covers copy protected software, even if "copy protection" is a note saying, "Don't do that". Then again, it mainly seems to cover whatever a high-priced lawyer wants it to cover.

Yes, it is frustrating. But D20 has practically locked up the RPG market, and is the strongest contributor to the rules for computer RPGs too.

Well, D&D (and by extension WotC/Hasbro) will always be top dogs in the market. From the last estimates I saw (in a Kenneth Hite column two years ago), WotC owns more than 50% of the market, White Wolf around 20%, and everyone else is fighting for scraps. From what I can tell, d20 itself is part of those scraps: Mongoose and Green Ronin had comparable numbers to SJ Games, FanPro, and Palladium. (For that matter, WotC has essentially abandoned d20 Modern, and rewrote the Star Wars RPG as a testing ground for changes in D&D 4e.)

But back to BRP ... These days, a system isn't enough; RPG publishers, including WotC and especially White Wolf, sell settings, genres, and premises with game mechanics attached. (Even without Eberron or Forgotten Realms, the assumptions implicit in D&D practically form a setting by themselves.) Chaosium needs to develop or license another compelling setting besides Cthulhu that fits the assumptions of BRP. I don't think Chaosium can afford to publish the same number of genre-books and settings that GURPS has.

From what I can tell, dual-system books don't do well: witness AFMBE d20/Unisystem or CoC d20. I might be wrong, though. (Certainly dual-system MRQ/BRP, ironically, would make sense to neither party.)

The only other solution I can think of is for Chaosium to embrace the digital revolution and release new BRP material as PDFs. The per-unit cost dwindles to zero (or nearly so), leaving only the upfront costs of writing and layout. They can also release a chapter's-worth of material at a time, rather than committing to a full book, to reduce the up-front costs and gauge the market. (And PDFs never go out of print.)

[Kloster]

No. Legally, the RQ name belongs to Greg (who paid for it) and is being used by Mongoose.

The rules actually belong to no one, since rule cannot be copywrited. Certain spefic terms and creatures can and are copywrited, but not the rules.

My point was that morally, since Steve (and others) wrote the rules, the rules SHOULD be theirs.

What I told is that the WORDS are belonging to Chaosium.

And no, RQ name does not belong to GS because he paied Steve Perrin and al.

Chaosium, not Greg, payed them.

It belongs to him because Chaosium sold it to AH, that AH let it's right lapse, and Greg was faster than anybody else to grab it.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[NickMiddleton]

As a suggestion, perhaps people should do some research on the following terms: "Author's Moral Rights", "work for hire contracts" "minimum terms agreement", "trademark", "copyright"? That way some of the current misinformation and ill-informed opinions might be dispelled.

For example, in most jurisdictions (certainly US, UK and Europe) some degree of acknowledgement of the "author's moral rights" is enshrined in law (albeit not enough according to various Writers lobby groups). And in all three writers are advised by their trade bodies / unions NOT to agree to "work for hire" contracts, and these days a LOT of RPG writing is no longer done under such contractual arrangements.

Further, copyright is distinct from trademark. Trademarks CAN lapse, and require vigorous defending in most jurisdictions. Copyright generally persists until a period after the authors death (typically seventy years), and within that time frame cannot lapse, even if the work is out of print: copyright can only be explicitly relinquished.

In addition, people seem to be labouring under a bizarre misapprehension about the size of the RPG market and in particular the size of the RPG market outside of D&D: it's really not that big and is highly dispersed such that it is hard to reach, especially through the traditional three-tier model (of publisher, distributor and retailer). Across the industry whilst the actual market may not be shrinking rapidly, there is a downward trend and from the smallest outfits to the big three (WotC, WW/CCP and Mongoose) there are clear signs of retrenchment. Margins are wafer thin in RPG publishing, even more so than in other specialist publishing sectors, as the market has increasingly high expectations of physical quality and very fixed ideas about price#.

In such a climate a small outfit like Chasoium has to pick its options very carefully. However they have reached their current circumstances (and by far the most considered account is Shannon Appelcline's History, over at RPGNet), if they want to survive they have to pick their risks carefully. They've grown the website, developed a lot of direct only sales items (far more profitable than conventional sales, and the direction the industry as a whole is moving). Given they are a publishing house, I don't see any issue in sustaining their current fiction line, Call of cthulhu RPG line and developing the BRP line - provided they get enough quality submissions for the BRP line. To significantly grow their market they may well need third party support - but garnering that in a fashion that doesn't jeopardise their own sales is the Gordian knot we've already commented on.

Personally, I'm sceptical about licensed settings: they have a significant overhead interms of resources and costs, as they require license fees and approval processes that can soak HUGE amounts of time (which can kill a product - look at what happened to AEG's Farscape and Stargate licenses), and despite what frothig fan boys think, only some licensed IP works as an RPG. For a company with the resources (such as Mongoose), or with the right license terms and relationship with the IP owner (SJG) they can work - but they are not the sure thing that people tend to think IMO.

So I think compelling original content is Chaosium's best option, along with deals such as the Seraphim Guard Dead World license, that lets third parties use BRP with licensed IP. Plus, as discussed here, some sort of BRP license that will allow third party BRP supplements without harming Chaosium core sales.

Cheers,

Nick Middleton

#Tell an academic publisher that a typical full colour 256pp RPG hardback retails for £25 and they will blanche in disbelief and question how on earth it is economically viable: the answer being of course that RPG publishers generally cut far more corners than most niche publishers and pay atrocious rates...

[Shaira]

I think one of the key aspects of the RPG publishing market these days is churn, and the ability to follow up with supplements, adventures, and so on. No one is going to corner the market with a single rulesbook, no matter how sh*t hot it is - you need follow up, reliably, frequently, and lots of it.

I think Mongoose's strategy is churn in spades - often at the expense of quality, to whit the rather nasty MRQ first release, Conan 1st edition, and so on. It's probably considered acceptable loss by a business that, most of the time, gets it more or less right.

My gut feeling is that the BRP core rules need to be *right*, ie well-produced & tested, not "broken", and with good production values. Chaosium have always been good at elegant, well-crafted games, IMHO - I don't recall a single one that was ever "broken". Following that, Chaosium would do well to either follow up with a good number of releases - either in full dead tree, monograph, pdf, or a combination thereof, together with a number of strategic partnerships (the old Judges Guild springs to mind) to allow a LOT of stuff onto the market. Allow fan websites and fanzines to spring up, try not to scare off the fanbase with legalese (I won't mention Issaries...) I wont say that quantity is more important than quality - first impressions are very important - but market visibility is key.

What I do wonder about is the crossover between the MRQ core rules and the BRP core rules. Products written for the one would be very usable for the other, more or less out of the box. That could work very well if no one gets silly, and, to use a bit of business-speak, create some rather interesting synergies.

Just thinking on the fly.

Sarah

[Atgxtg]

Yes, the Churn. But the churn is not a good thing.

Selling lots and lots of supplments and making money is good for a company, but isn't necessarily good for the market or the consumers.

Most people only spend a limited amouint of money of RPGs. More products mean that most people will have to make a choice between product A or product B. In the market that does give an edge to comapnies that product a lot of stuff, like WotC, White Wolf, and Mongoose.

Printing twice as many products doesn't mean twice as many sales. With consuers making a choice, it usually means that most people will follow fewer product lines than in the past. THat makes it harder for the smaller companies to survive.

One reason why I rather see fewer products, of higher quality, is that it is actually better for us all. The only ones who benefit from tons and tons of stuff that is mostly crap are the big companies.

I think anyone who wants to see BRP stand a chance of regaining some of RQ's prominence would be better off rooting for quality rather than quantity.

[Shaira]

Well, I think we agree on the issue of "quality" at least! :happy:

There obviously has to be an ideal level - I agree that churning out loads and loads of crap is good for no one apart from the accountants.

But take HeroQuest, for example. At the moment I'd say pretty much everything being published is of uniformly high quality - ILH2 Under The Red Moon was one of the best RPG supplements I've ever seen, IMHO. But - they're producing, what, 1 product every year or two, on average? Way too little - almost back to the bad old days of the fanbase keeping the game alive, except Issaries have even jeopardised the fanpubs rather with their intellectual property protection legalese.

I think especially if BRP does what it should do, and branch into multiple genres, then you're going to need something a little more than one release every two years (I know that's not what you were saying atgxtg - I'm sure you mean more often than that), no matter how much quality, to generate any popularity or sustainability. There has to be some minimum level of publication, which can include pdfs, fanzine presence, and so on, to keep the game in people's sights. Too little and it just becomes (remains?) a boutique game of minor specialist interest (Tekumel, Jorune - wonderful quality, but...:shocked:) - ironic when it is probably a better contender for global domination in terms of game mechanics than any of the d20 stuff.

Personally I think it's best to blast 'em to achieve visibility, and see how it goes. I think most people would like to play a game system that feels supported, with regular coverage and publications, rather than the rare award-winner. That's just my breadhead analysis though...

[Nightshade]

No its not. This was what was claimed would happen, but in practice, several suppleirs used the OGL/SRD to produce rulebooks that competeed head on with WotC own core rulebooks (the ones the OGL was supposed to promote sales of...) and WoTC very rapidly started publishing exactly the sorts of supplelemnts tha tthey'd origianlly claimed they wouldn't need to publish, as the third party producers would do them...

That's because almost _anything_ would sell when produced for 3e, so producing almost anything was selected for, and competing head to head was okay for third parties because just crumbs from WOTC's table were plenty. Not parallel to the situations with smaller game markets.

Chaosium are still in business, still actively supporting Call of Cthulhu and about to release the new BRP - so BRP is clearly NOT an "abandoned" rule system such as OD&D or AD&D. GORE specifically and explicitly (without ACTUALLY infringing copyright or trademarks) clones large portions of Chaosium's BRP, in part thanks to the MRQ SRD and in part thanks to the legal nicety that copyright covers the form of expression, not the idea.

Its not a nicety. Its an incredibly important distinction that, otherwise would allow copyright infringement cases on anything that resembled a set of expressions. There's a way to IP that sort of thing: its called a patent. Its also much more stringent than copyright, for very good reasons. Copyright is already too big a club to be used in too much of the creative world, as comes up in music copyright cases all the time.

This strikes some people as morally dubious. Also, bear in mind that the original release of GORE didn't allow anyone to use ANY text from GORE - ALL the new text was claimed as Product Identity. This struck some people as both legally AND morally dubious, and pretty clearly against the intent and spirit if not the letter of the OGL. All credit to Dan Proctor, GORE and the GORE licenses WERE revised, and the whol text is now OGC, plain and simple.

There's little question that the attempt to have closed product identity was very dodgy given the way OGL is set up.

[Nightshade]

How true. Just because one obeys the law to the letter it does not mean that he is unethical. (and vice versa) Additionally there are many different individual and cultural interpretations what ethical is and what not.

Fact is, there are all kinds of unethical laws; law tends to turn on the interests that lawmakers serve, some of which are ethical, some not. I have personal opinions of most IP law that I'm not going to share (since it would drag this down into what always turns into an apocalyptic flamewar everywhere I've ever seen it), but there's no question its one of those areas where the door swings both ways.

[Atgxtg]

The problem with "basting" is that every game that has done so has released a lot of crap. That hurts the game. If someone looks at or worse buys two ro three products for a game and they are all crap then it just promotes the image that the game is crap.

Personally, I think about 6-20 products a year for BRP would be about right. Fewer products if they are big source books, like campaign packs or settings. More if they are small things like adventures, NPC stats and the like. One product a month seems good enough for any RPG.

Yes Chasoium needs to relase a certain amount of product to make the game viable. I'm sure that they are aware of that, since it is impossible for them to make any money if they don't have anything to sell.

Too much product also hurts in other ways. Years ago, I could keep up with entire products lines. I own all the material for RQ2, Strombringer, James Bond, and a bunch of other RPGs. If I like the new BRP, I'll probably try and get all the offical products in the line. But if there is a flood of stuff, I'd probably give up on completeness and end up buying less than if there were fewer products out there.

[Nightshade]

The BRP "system" is a myth.Desipre what people try to claim, RQ is not an expression of BRP. RQ came first, and BRP is/was merely a 16 page intro to RQ, Strombringer, and CoC. Sort of like GURPS lite, only less so. BRP as a system is as much a Greg Stafford retcon as Elmal.

It's a system; its just derived from RQ rather than the other way around. Mind you, it eliminates the one element of RQ that was, as far as I can tell, original at the time of its creation (hit locations), but that doesn't make it not a system.

Edit: Just to make it clear, the above statement should not be read of critical of RQ; at the time it came out, RQ was a breakthrough in fantasy gaming and an incredible fresh start. But very few of its systems were inherently original; percentage skills with roll low had been seen in D&D (in the form of the thief skills in Greyhawk), non-level non-class based individualized characters had been found in Traveller, and so on. That in no way criticizes RQ; almost all game systems are based on prior art to one degree or another, and the vast majority are mostly assemblies of prior system elements retuned to serve the author's purposes.

Now, once the new BRP core book is released, BRP might actually become a game system, but lets face reality. Chasoium's RPGs never were BRP based, but RQ based. Instead of adding onto a core set of rules, they took is RQ, watered down, and adapted to a specific setting.

Post Call of Cthulhu, that's really not true; from that point on, they pretty much were built up from BRP, not down from RQ. You can usually tell, too, from the lack of most RQ elements that didn't appear in BRP proper.

If you accept the concept of OGL, then morally you have to accept GORE. It an OGL MRQ product. If you don't accdept it, then the same argument can and should be used for any other OGL product.

Not really. OGL is essentially a legal structure. Its perfectly okay to accept that there are legitimate and illegitimate uses of it, like any other legal structure.

[Lord Twig]

Further, copyright is distinct from trademark. Trademarks CAN lapse, and require vigorous defending in most jurisdictions. Copyright generally persists until a period after the authors death (typically seventy years), and within that time frame cannot lapse, even if the work is out of print: copyright can only be explicitly relinquished.

Exactly, the copyright for the RQ3 rule books did not lapse. As I said before, the contract that AH signed to publish Chaosium's copyrighted books lapsed. When it did, the copyright reverted to Chaosium.

What I told is that the WORDS are belonging to Chaosium.

And no, RQ name does not belong to GS because he paied Steve Perrin and al.

Chaosium, not Greg, payed them.

It belongs to him because Chaosium sold it to AH, that AH let it's right lapse, and Greg was faster than anybody else to grab it.

Yes, the words belong to Chaosium. This is because of the way copyrights work. See above.

Greg did not have to pay Chaosium, Steve Perrin, or anybody else for the RuneQuest name. He just had to pay to register it as a Trademark. (I think you have to pay to do that?) You are right that Avalon Hill (and Hasbro) let the Trademark lapse and Greg jumped on it. He then licensed it to Mongoose. So I guess the only reason for grabbing the Trademark was to sell it for money. :ohwell:

[Atgxtg]

It's a system; its just derived from RQ rather than the other way around. Mind you, it eliminates the one element of RQ that was, as far as I can tell, original at the time of its creation (hit locations), but that doesn't make it not a system.

Not yet it isn't. You can't buy or play it. THe 16 page booklet wasn't a system. The monograph IS RQ3 renamed.

In a few weeks BRP might be a system, but it isn't one yet.

Post Call of Cthulhu, that's really not true; from that point on, they pretty much were built up from BRP, not down from RQ. You can usually tell, too, from the lack of most RQ elements that didn't appear in BRP proper.

No. Post CoC, what few RPGs Chasoium released were essentially based on CoC. Take CoC remove the SAN rules and Mothos stuff, add in a reworked spirit magic and summoning rules, elements of the Eternal Champion series, and you got Elric!

BRP is an abstract concept, not an RPG.

Not really. OGL is essentially a legal structure. Its perfectly okay to accept that there are legitimate and illegitimate uses of it, like any other legal structure.

But how is GORE illegitimate use of OGL? Legally, it a MRQ variant, and that is fine by OGL. IMO that is also one of the problems with OGL. Anyone CAN use it for anything. For instance, someone could write up a pedophile RPG, using an OGL system, and run a system into the mud.

Personally, I find GORE more acceptable than, say MRQ. I get the feeling that the people behind GORE have actually played the systems that GORE was based on, and that they now play GORE. I don't get that impression from MRQ.

[Atgxtg]

Greg did not have to pay Chaosium, Steve Perrin, or anybody else for the RuneQuest name. He just had to pay to register it as a Trademark. (I think you have to pay to do that?) You are right that Avalon Hill (and Hasbro) let the Trademark lapse and Greg jumped on it. He then licensed it to Mongoose. So I guess the only reason for grabbing the Trademark was to sell it for money. :ohwell:

From what I've read, apparently the RQ name had lapsed for some time, and Greg was the first one who thought to check.

It does sort of annoy me that the only reason why he picked up the trademark was so that he could peddle it for a fast buck. It would have been nice if he had wanted to do something with the system.

[Nightshade]

Not yet it isn't. You can't buy or play it. THe 16 page booklet wasn't a system. The monograph IS RQ3 renamed.

In a few weeks BRP might be a system, but it isn't one yet.

It was the moment the seperate BRP booklet existed. It was adjusted from game to game, but that was still the core of all the ones that came after that, not RQ.

I'm also not sure a system needs to be published to exist. If its the basis, its the basis. I've seen several companies that had house systems that had no descrete existance of their own except in games that represented them. Unisystem comes to mind. There was no standalone "Unisystem" book, but that didn't mean it didn't exist as a system.

No. Post CoC, what few RPGs Chasoium released were essentially based on CoC. Take CoC remove the SAN rules and Mothos stuff, add in a reworked spirit magic and summoning rules, elements of the Eternal Champion series, and you got Elric!

BRP is an abstract concept, not an RPG.

Uhm, no. One of the earliest versions in fact had the BRP booklet as part of its components--a necessary part. BRP existed as a seperate entity for quite some time; it was just never used by itself because it was missing too much to be too useful for most purposes.

But how is GORE illegitimate use of OGL? Legally, it a MRQ variant, and that is

Ask the people who think it is. I'm not one of them.

[Atgxtg]

It was the moment the seperate BRP booklet existed. It was adjusted from game to game, but that was still the core of all the ones that came after that, not RQ.

Uhm, no. One of the earliest versions in fact had the BRP booklet as part of its components--a necessary part. BRP existed as a seperate entity for quite some time; it was just never used by itself because it was missing too much to be too useful for most purposes.

It was missing too much to be considered a system. In fact the BRP booklet does not call itself an RPG, but an introductory guide. All the stats, creatures and other info are incomplete and culled from RQ2. It isn't a system. No one actually played the thing.

Ask the people who think it is. I'm not one of them.

[Kloster]

It was missing too much to be considered a system. In fact the BRP booklet does not call itself an RPG, but an introductory guide. All the stats, creatures and other info are incomplete and culled from RQ2. It isn't a system. No one actually played the thing.

...

Even if I agree with most of your arguments, in fact, lots of people have.

At least here in France where Casus Belli (France's premier RPG mag during years) published it with Chaosium approval under the name BaSIC.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[Nightshade]

It was missing too much to be considered a system. In fact the BRP booklet does not call itself an RPG, but an introductory guide. All the stats, creatures and other info are incomplete and culled from RQ2. It isn't a system. No one actually played the thing.

No one actually played a lot of core elements to other systems I've mentioned without add-ons, but that doesn't mean they aren't systems. It had character generation and rules for combat and skill usage. That's all a system at its basic need. As to the rest, since I agreed from the start it was _derived_ from RQ, that doesn't mean anything; by that standard BRP will _never_ be a system, since it'll always show that relationship.