Your Dumbest Theory

[davecake]

On 7/19/2024 at 10:06 PM, mfbrandi said:

Think of my idealised Malkioni as ultra-empiricists: they aim to understand the world, but they don’t expect to find the IG’s fingerprints on it, and they don’t expect to find God in it. Their god is properly transcendent — invisible, intangible, …, ineffable.

Though at least one Malkioni school rejects empiricism explicitly (the Zendamalthan school, one of the core schools of the Loskalmi. All that materialism is just the demiurge messing with you. Who you going to believe, pure Logic and reason or your own lying eyes?

[scott-martin]

36 minutes ago, davecake said:

Who you going to believe, pure Logic and reason or your own lying eyes?

Dumb theory: when we talk about "gnostic" strains of malkionism and our characters within the gloranthan west castigate sectarian rivals for what we would call "gnostic" errors, it's more a parody of contemporary political rhetoric than anything else. A complicated and perhaps unintended joke, the whiff of the uncanny flapping across a fallen hylic world. 

[mfbrandi]

21 hours ago, davecake said:

Who you going to believe, pure Logic and reason or your own lying eyes?

But what does pure logic and reason get you? Nothing. It all cancels to zero, and Descartes is fooling himself.

I am not trying to explain all the appearances (the varieties of Malkioni experience). I am just trying to tease something interesting out of the idea of an invisible god — one proof against reason and the senses. I am not offering empiricism as a route to knowledge of the divine: there is no knowledge of an unknowable god.

Of course, that is not to say that all Malkioni should agree. And back in the real world, my idea of what is interesting and amusing will likely seem dull and stupid to others. That is OK, too.

[mfbrandi]

21 hours ago, scott-martin said:

it's more a parody of contemporary political rhetoric than anything else

I must say that “pneumopathological consciousness” (taken entirely out of context) seems the perfect term for Lunars to use for despised Orlanthi “spirituality”. 😉

[Eff]

21 hours ago, scott-martin said:

Dumb theory: when we talk about "gnostic" strains of malkionism and our characters within the gloranthan west castigate sectarian rivals for what we would call "gnostic" errors, it's more a parody of contemporary political rhetoric than anything else. A complicated and perhaps unintended joke, the whiff of the uncanny flapping across a fallen hylic world. 

Ah, another source of that pesky 500-year cycle emerges... 

[scott-martin]

27 minutes ago, Eff said:

Ah, another source of that pesky 500-year cycle emerges... 

What was perhaps novel in the fears of the Heresy of the Free Spirit was the fear of the notion of personal annihilation. This was a new idea to the mystical tradition, but was also seen as the root of many of the other dangers that were perceived in mystics in the late medieval period.^[2]: 55

[mfbrandi]

14 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

the notion of personal annihilation

“Personal annihilation (page does not exist)” — how felicitous!

[mfbrandi]

22 hours ago, scott-martin said:

when we talk about “gnostic” strains of malkionism and our characters within the gloranthan west castigate sectarian rivals for what we would call “gnostic” errors, it’s more a parody of contemporary political rhetoric than anything else

• The cardinal feature of gnostic thought is the radical dualism that governs the relation of God and world, and correspondingly that of man and world. The deity is absolutely transmundane, its nature alien to that of the universe, which it neither created nor governs and to which it is the complete antithesis: to the divine realm of light, self-contained and remote, the cosmos is opposed as the realm of darkness …
  [Libertine Gnosticism] exhibits more forcefully than the ascetic version the nihilistic element contained in gnostic acosmism.
  — Hans Jonas, The Gnostic Religion

If the real world failed to deliver any such “Gnostics”, it is easy to imagine Ralzakark leading a new religion of light — all solve and no coagula — in an anti-Cosmic jihad. The less ambitious Argrath merely makes war on the Archons. So who is the true heir of Arkat–Gbaji–Nysalor?

Spoiler

And Dayzatar thinks that if he can put enough distance between himself and the filthy darkness of the world that we will mistake him for the real deal?

[Eff]

Ever since the obliteration of year-king sacrifices, Ernaldans who learned their trade in Esrolia-influenced circles have started to occasionally experience a mysterious hunger and thirst that nothing can quite sate. 

[davecake]

22 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

But what does pure logic and reason get you? Nothing. It all cancels to zero, and Descartes is fooling himself.

Indeed. 

The existence of Malkioni schools of thought that radically reject empiricism is in itself interesting - the Zendamathans are also known as the 'cult of engineers', and engineers who design and create machinery (siege engines, notably in the coming War against War) without believing the observed properties of actual materials are that relevant provides some fun ideas on its own. The visions of Loskalmi crafters trying to build machines that are impossible to build out of actual matter (perpetual motion machines etc), perhaps Loskalmi hero questers scouring the otherworld for infinitely stiff beams (adamant?),  frictionless lubricants, universal solvents AND the vessel to carry them in, etc is full of entertainment. 

Philosophically of course they are more or less inspired by Pythagoreans. 

22 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

I am not trying to explain all the appearances (the varieties of Malkioni experience). I am just trying to tease something interesting out of the idea of an invisible god — one proof against reason and the senses. I am not offering empiricism as a route to knowledge of the divine: there is no knowledge of an unknowable god.

I'm reluctant to ascribe any fundamental philosophical unity to Malkionism as a whole. But I agree that from Hrestol on, at least, there is a fundamental agreement that the Invisible God is unknowable in any practical way, and for many unknowable even in any theoretical way. 

The Zendamalthans as mathematical mystics gives the potential idea that, rather than rejecting ideas like irrational numbers (as allegedly did some of the Pythagoreans, throwing Hippasus into the sea for discovering them*), they may embrace them as glimpses of the unknowable divine, or perhaps proof that it is truly unknowable. The Invisible God can be considered the creator of the world of pure thought, and the Zendamalthans have proved the world of pure thought can not be understand by Logic alone, they say - they rejected any trace of knowing god through the world of the senses, and empiricism as we understand it as having value, by rejecting the world as the creation of the demiurge, and rejected god as knowable by Intellect alone with proofs such as the irrational numbers, and so the Invisible God is hidden from modern creation, becoming the Hidden Mover. To them, if Makan, the One Mind, allows understanding of the world it must therefore be a false version of the One. Relying on Intellect alone can at best make you at the level of Zzabur.

Understanding the world of Shapes and Principles, of Matter, Energy, and Intellect, is a higher level of thought, and one should strive to purify oneself to be at that level so that one transcend mortality and like an Eranschula, but understanding the world of Shapes and Principles can never allow you to get more than glimpses of the creator of Shapes and Principles, the creator of Intellect itself.

To the Rokari, Zzabur is the source of correct understanding of the world. though through Malkion's teachings we must unify the world of mortality with the Logical teachings of Zzabur in a way that Zzabur himself cannot. Empiricism is good, as we learn of the world the power of our Intellect grows. As intellect grows we approach the understanding of Zzabur, trying to do this as a mortal makes us like Malkion. But you cannot know the true Invisible God, it would require turning back the world. Empiricism is an essential tool to understand the world of the Fifth action by mastering it using the tools of the Fourth action.

I think the God Learners believed they could go further than this - by truly understanding gods themselves, they could learn to understand the Eranschula who became the gods, and believed they had done this. By further tools they could go back further. But they had to deal with that which they found unknowable. The Makanists convinced themselves it could become knowledge by a greater Intellect than themselves, which they continued seeking. The Maliioneranists convinced themselves that by understanding both the Intellectual world and the mortal condition of Malkion they could truly return to the knowing the world beyond the gods, and fell into unusual practices (in reality, the techniques of mysticism, and without humility and respect, the path of Gbaji). 

* yes, I am aware this is a noin-contemporory legend unlikely to bear any resemblance to the truth.

[Joerg]

On 7/30/2024 at 3:26 PM, davecake said:

The visions of Loskalmi crafters trying to build machines that are impossible to build out of actual matter (perpetual motion machines etc), perhaps Loskalmi hero questers scouring the otherworld for infinitely stiff beams (adamant?),  frictionless lubricants, universal solvents AND the vessel to carry them in, etc is full of entertainment. 

If you go back into Godtime and encounter e.g. Artmali Moon-metal boats, Helerite cloud ships or other such technology, you will often find that to be really naive in terms of engineering yet fully (because mythically) functional, thanks to sympathetic magic. The Kadeniti city builders probably designed their perfect city on similar principles, as well as other such gear.

If you read about the Iron and Bronze Energy Prison (aka spirit matrix) produced by the Mostali (Iron) and copied by Zzabur('s minions: Bronze), these might well be more or less symbolic coils wherein the captor would embed a spirit. Carrying such items functionally into the world of Time might either require huge ongoing magics (not exactly an unsolvable problem for sorcerers) or a lot of technical refinement.

Despite frowning on empiricism, I would expect Zendamalthan engineers to tweak the parameters of their spells and enspelled equipment rather ampirically, unless they have something like a simulation dimension (think Star Trek Holo Deck) to have WYSIWYG spell adjustment.

[Erol of Backford]

Guessing this is how Lokamayadon fell in love:

One day Lokamayadon marvelled at his master's ability to ignore the world. A swarm of big black flies flew into the window and buzzed about him, crawling on his skin and biting him, even in his eyes and lips, and crawled into his ears and nose. Nysalor did not react to them at all. At last Lokamayadon asked what they were. "Those are the prayers and sacrifices of the unfortunates who worship me," said the Master. "They are worthless, just distractions." That was when Lokamayadon decided to stop sacrificing to Orlanth. (Peter Metcalfe 2013)

[jajagappa]

37 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

Guessing this is how Lokamayadon fell in love

Clearly Lokamayadon fell in love with the one person who could match his own ambitions: Erilindia of Fandara, Queen of Terarir, and the Queen of the Oslir.

(As HotHP p.30 notes: Lokamayadon shamefully used the Three Lightnings and the Hidden Wind to win Erilindia of Fandara, Queen of the Oslira, the most beautiful and ambitious woman in the world.)

Erilindia is also noted in the Three Great Triads of Terarir (p.34): Erilindia, the most ambitious. (Born a carl, she took the scale and became a trade chief, amassed great wealth and bought Durleel, became Director of Terarir and Queen of Oslira, and married the greatest priest in the world.)

[Erol of Backford]

16 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Erilindia

Yet another rabbit hole...

Wonder as to her Charisma...

Edited August 10 by Erol of Backford

[Erol of Backford]

Giant Tusk-Riders have been seen recently. They are a result of the Induce Uzdo spell cast on tusker females. They ride only the sons of Red Eye.

[jajagappa]

7 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Wonder as to her Charisma...

Do you need to ask??? Species maximum obviously!

[Erol of Backford]

2 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Species maximum obviously!

Was thinking much higher, magic, adornments, a crown with influence or maybe even hero quested increases?

[davecake]

On 8/6/2024 at 8:05 PM, Joerg said:

If you go back into Godtime and encounter e.g. Artmali Moon-metal boats, Helerite cloud ships or other such technology, you will often find that to be really naive in terms of engineering yet fully (because mythically) functional, thanks to sympathetic magic. The Kadeniti city builders probably designed their perfect city on similar principles, as well as other such gear

I agree that you can get materials beyond the mundane through heroquesting and by going beyond the mundane world. The way the Sendereven build their boats, on a simple design but of supernatural materials, is similar to what you describe (though I think their design is usually fundamentally correct and functional, just simplistic, relying on magic to eg fly but not for ships to float etc).  But I think what the hypothesised Zendamalthan engineers are doing is different - they are not striving recreate the creations of the Godtime, the Kadeniti designs of Danmalastan, but to create new designs. But as rejectors of empiricism, when their designs fail to work they philosophically assume it is the world at fault, not the design. 

[Joerg]

7 hours ago, davecake said:

I agree that you can get materials beyond the mundane through heroquesting and by going beyond the mundane world. The way the Sendereven build their boats, on a simple design but of supernatural materials, is similar to what you describe (though I think their design is usually fundamentally correct and functional, just simplistic, relying on magic to eg fly but not for ships to float etc).  But I think what the hypothesised Zendamalthan engineers are doing is different - they are not striving recreate the creations of the Godtime, the Kadeniti designs of Danmalastan, but to create new designs. But as rejectors of empiricism, when their designs fail to work they philosophically assume it is the world at fault, not the design. 

That's basically my argument. The post-Gods War world is at fault, because under the mythical premises of Godtime such (new?) designs should operate perfectly fine.

The Zendamalthan School would long since have lost its funding if all their designs fail, though. They must do certain things right enough to remain in business.

[mfbrandi]

3 hours ago, Joerg said:

The Zendamalthan School would long since have lost its funding if all their designs fail, though. They must do certain things right enough to remain in business.

Although the Scientologists never delivered even one Operating Thetan. The thing “done right” needn’t be the thing promised. So long as your punters have an income that doesn’t depend on your product working, you can maybe keep on selling them a dream … vapourware … tobacco. 😉

[davecake]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

The Zendamalthan School would long since have lost its funding if all their designs fail, though. They must do certain things right enough to remain in business.

The Zendamalthan school remains in business because its writings and philosophy are core to the New Hrestoli Idealism philosophy, along with the Furlandan, and so it is one of the two schools that new Men-of-All/Wizards are most encouraged to study, and as far as its pure sorcery goes I'm sure it is in great demand (I would suggest they are good at things like creating wardings and magical defences, binding magic, metamagic, enchanting, perception magic, possibly the old teleport cycle spells, etc). They are probably really good at sacred architecture (the founding document of the Zendamalthan school is The City of Virtue by Tomaris, which is also one of the books that is core to New Hrestoli Idealism, used to guide public worship, etc). And probably help with the creation of many public sorcerous projects, and do so largely competently at things like architecture that encourages calmness and logic. 

The question is why it remains popular as a source of engineering knowledge for practical projects like creating siege weapons - and for that I think you can posit various alternatives as your campaign prefers:

1. maybe they are simply not very good at it, having managed to convince people they are successful during the long peace of the Ban, but are untested in real conditions and will not prevail when confronted with the assault of the Kingdom of War (whose experience with siege warfare is practical and pragmatic, and vicious - eg introducing plague or gorp). It thus demonstrates the weaknesses of the Loskalmi way. 
2. Maybe they succeed because, despite their philosophical disdain for empiricism, many of those doing such practical projects are actually former craftsmen who have a real practical understanding of how to build things anyway. It thus demonstrates the superiority of the Loskalmi way. 
3. Maybe their designs work, but require magic to work, and obtaining magical resources becomes an important issue in learning how to fight the Kingdom of War effectively. 
4. Maybe they succeed because others, including perhaps your PCs, are able to find the knowledge/special materials to make their impractical designs work. This could be as magical as getting special materials through questing or special knowledge from the Third Eye Blue or Mostali, or as mundane as having experienced siege engineers from Jonatela or Seshnela, and may be as heroic and worthy as getting help from the Altinae, or as problematic as getting knowledge from God Learner archives that uses the powers of pagan gods (like Lodril) to create devastating weapons. 

[Eff]

Maybe the Zendamalthans are a joke about the distance between pure mathematics and the everyday world, or about "assume a spherical cow" in general, meaning that their siege engines are effective despite them being a bunch of contemptible humanist nerds, because they're also behaving creatively and perhaps even playfully with received wisdom.

As such, they're probably a Chaotic fifth column within Loskalm.

[mfbrandi]

  Of course, one should never break the golden rule of Cthulhu Dark — fight the monster → you die — but …

18 hours ago, Jens said:

Step 1. Steal the White Bear’s skin from Harrek. 
Step 2. Reskin the Bat. 

Step 3. Back in its white fur, the Bat realises it has always been Orlanth, which explains everything.
Step 4. The Bat joins the cult of Danfive Xaron to repent its wicked ways.
Step 5. From prison, the Bat publishes a vegetarian cookbook, Falafel in Chains.
Step 6. And there’s your profit (if you are a shareholder of DX Press).

[Erol of Backford]

The Falling Ruins is part of the World Machine but since Dwarves don't fly nor do they look up they haven't seen it...

[metcalph]

2 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

The Falling Ruins is part of the World Machine but since Dwarves don't fly nor do they look up they haven't seen it...

There is an immovable celestial object known as Zenith (not mentioned in the Guide) which has been stated to be an Dwarven observation balloon made to guide the firing of the cables that pulled the Sun back on course to bring an end to the Sunstop.    The crew is apparently still up there.

I do feel that the dwarves make Zeppelins out of Lead...