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How common are tribes among the Orlanthi?


Gallowglass

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There are a lot of "Orlanthi" people in Glorantha, but the ones we've gotten the closest look at are the Sartarites. Within a relatively small region, they have organized into 20+ tribes, with kings and everything that goes with it (I'm including the Far Place tribes). Up until recently I think I've allowed that model to dominate my perception of how Orlanthi people organize themselves socially. But lately I've been wondering how common the Sartar model is (lots of tribes, each with anywhere from 3,000-10,000 population) when compared to other Orlanthi around the lozenge.

I'm also curious about Orlanthi that don't use the Orlanth Rex cult as the basis for creating and maintaining tribes. I think it was introduced by Alakoring in the Second Age, so I would think this is a thing in Ralios, and further south. But what about Peloria, where Orlanth worship is suppressed? Or more distant places like Fronela or Umathela? 

 

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It's worth mentioning that the Guide mentions a few Orlanthi peoples who specifically don't form tribes, on p. 31. Oranor, Nimistor, Brolia, Keanos, Surkorian, and Basim. For the record, I don't agree with Oranor. They have cities and are described as having a king of some kind, so I think it takes greater political organization for that to happen. Otherwise I think what these people have in common is that they live in remote areas, and don't have any serious existential threats nearby. 

There are also several Orlanthi regions that are dominated by powerful overlords, so it seems like that would discourage the formation of tribes or kings. All the kingdoms under the control of the Lunar Empire for example would probably have small, weak tribes, if they have any at all. I remember the Unspoken Word #1 goes into this a little bit on Tarsh, but I forget how it works specifically. Other examples I can think of that probably have weak or nonexistent tribes would be Jonatela, Heortland (especially during Belintar's reign), maybe even Esrolia. 

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1 minute ago, Gallowglass said:

Otherwise I think what these people have in common is that they live in remote areas, and don't have any serious existential threats nearby. 

Apart from the political angle, I'd suspect population density to be the main factor for tribal formation. The denser the population, the more likelihood for large-scale political organization. 

Of course, this is a bit too demographically deterministic, but it's more of a rule of thumb.

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Ralios, Kerofinela, Talastar, Heortland (the Volsaxi are a kind of super-tribe, aren't they?), Maniria (Ditali, etc. are tribes, aren't they? Or tribal confederations?)

I *think* the Umathelan Orlanthi organize in tribes, but I can't recall whether their named groups are explicitly named as tribes.

 
Beyond that, I'm not sure.

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From the look of it, non-tribal Orlanthi are (currently a minority, as many are organized in kingdoms. There is no clear border between (oversized) tribes and kingdoms.

A case might be made for the (many!) Orlanthi n Esrolia defying tribal organisation, as they follow the Houses paradigm (sort of autocratic clans rather than tribes, with a hierarchy of client houses etc.).

Urban guilds are another possibility for Orlanthi avoiding a direct tribal membership. On the other hands, a guild can be something between a clan or a tribe.

There is nothing in Orlanthi society that requires tribes, except external pressure.

To be honest, I am quite surprised by the large impact tribal membership has on the self-determination of clans. The clan is the measure of Orlanthi society. It owns (or at least claims) the land, it owns the herds (except for a fraction of personal property), and it owns most means of production. Taken to the extreme, it probably even owns the rags you clad yourself in and the food you consume.

Giving the tribal kings some land claim to house tenants on and some pasture and herds to take their income from is fine, and may have been pooled up upon forming (or belatedly joining) the tribe. But I would have expected the clans only to grant usage of land to the tribe.

"The tribe" is the king, the tribal temple(s), and the officials (thanes, priests, bodyguard companions) supporting the king and supported by tenants.

The tenants supporting these folk by tending to their land are members of their respective clans. I have no idea whether being a tenant of a clan official/temple or a tribal official/temple has any differentiation in status, wealth, or freedom, or in tax burden. And there is a possibility that the kingdom temple may have land or herds with tenants, too.

It looks like Apple Lane is a tribal holding (if not a royal Sartarite one).

While the campaign is not yet quite there, it will be interesting to see how Argrath is planning to fund his Magical Union warlock-bands in the long term.

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Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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1 hour ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Apart from the political angle, I'd suspect population density to be the main factor for tribal formation. The denser the population, the more likelihood for large-scale political organization. 

 

This makes sense. But it's interesting that Sartar has a comparatively low population (roughly 125,000), but has so many tribes. Oranor in comparison has almost three times as many people, so again, I don't think they just go in clans.  

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11 minutes ago, Gallowglass said:

This makes sense. But it's interesting that Sartar has a comparatively low population (roughly 125,000), but has so many tribes. Oranor in comparison has almost three times as many people, so again, I don't think they just go in clans.  

Yeah, it's not a clear determinator (for example, Pentan nomads seem to organize in pretty large-scale tribes even though Pent has abysmally low density, but then mounted nomads play by somewhat different rules than sedentary folks), however, what I will say is that Sartar (and Tarsh and/or Drsgon Pass as a whole) can't just be seen in terms of population density as a whole, rather it seems we find significant concentrations in the more fertile lowlands along the waterways, contrasted by very low densities in the high mountains surrounding them. This means that if we look with a more fine grain, we might see a better view of things. I'm not sure if there is an equivalent density-contrast within Oranor. But as you said, there are cultural differences at play too.

The other aspect is of course that Sartar and Tarsh lie along an extremely profitable trading route, which makes economic stability desireable, which arguably promotes higher levels of organization (and arguably makes them able to punch above their weight in terms of manpower, since they are disproportionately wealthy - which sounds weird to type as we tend to think of Sartarites as "salt of the earth" barbarian types). Brolia basically lies in the arse end of nowhere by comparison.

It's all a bit speculative, of course. I would never discout the influence of Alakoring's Rex Cult. Myths legitimizing and lending magical potency to certain political models is a very real and significant thing in Glorantha.

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51 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Giving the tribal kings some land claim to house tenants on and some pasture and herds to take their income from is fine, and may have been pooled up upon forming (or belatedly joining) the tribe. But I would have expected the clans only to grant usage of land to the tribe.

 

I think some clans are inextricable from tribal kingship. At least that's how I imagine these things happening. Like how the Ernaldori are really the biggest and most influential of the Colymar clans. There seem to be clans who basically control towns or other important resources. I would imagine that these tribal resources start there. 

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1 hour ago, Gallowglass said:

All the kingdoms under the control of the Lunar Empire for example would probably have small, weak tribes, if they have any at all.

Imther has two large tribes: the Laramite and the Wilktar, both of which are distinctly noted in the maps in the Guide, as well as small independent clans.  I believe for most of Vanch and Holay, the "tribal" leadership has been concentrated in the cities (as with Tarsh). 

1 hour ago, Gallowglass said:

Other examples I can think of that probably have weak or nonexistent tribes would be Jonatela, Heortland (especially during Belintar's reign), maybe even Esrolia.

From the recent notes by Jeff on the Holy Country posted over in the RuneQuest forum, Heortland is not tribal (though Volsaxiland is).  Esrolia works through its Enfranchised Houses, which are "noble" clans that have many other client clans - so not tribal in the manner of Sartar.

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2 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

From the recent notes by Jeff on the Holy Country posted over in the RuneQuest forum, Heortland is not tribal (though Volsaxiland is).  Esrolia works through its Enfranchised Houses, which are "noble" clans that have many other client clans - so not tribal in the manner of Sartar.

The Heortland tribes (remember the "Four Large Tribes" mentioned in Genertela Book) don't follow the Orlanth Rex model, but that doesn't mean that they aren't tribes. Both clan and tribe sizes may be on the unusual side, if one looks at the Orshanti clan which appears to have a population easily that of a city confederation in Sartar, or two.

Volsaxiland probably inherited this from the invitation King Androrfin established to Alakoringite magicians by 920, and Andrin the Mover who establishes the Dragonbreaker cult among the Hendriki a few years later. No mention of the Rex cult, though. (History of the Heortling Peoples p.75)

The Hendriki retain their weird Larnsting kingship. They are something that you would call a tribe nonetheless. But then, the Sartarites used to be called a tribe, too, despite being made up of up to two dozen smaller tribes. And the Colymar tribe included the former triaties/triarchies of Runegate and the Tree Brothers, demonstrating a tribe within a tribe possibility on a much smaller scale.

The Adjustment Wars continue the Hendriki kingship and force it upon about half the Esrolians, too.

King Finelvanth marks both the height and the end of Adjusted Esrolia and the rulership of the Hendriki tribe. While smaller remnants of Adjustment remain in a number of Esrolian territories and cities, they no longer follow a single king.

Rex kingship becomes the norm in the Quivini lands. The first migratory groups after the Colymar (Balmyr, Torkani) and the second wavers (Dundealos, Malani, probably Sambari) appear to come as tribes, too. What kind of tribes is not specified - the Torkani bringing some weird model possibly based on Kitori ways. The Dundealos push the Torkani out of Sambari pass, but migrate on eastward. The Sambari take up the now vacant lands beyond the Balmyr. The Colymar become a tribe in 1335, according to Jalk's Book, which may have set a model for further tribes. By that time, the Malani migratory group has already passed through, in all likelihood including the Tree Brother triaty. Whether they came as a tribe with Mad Blood Malan as their king (as per "Fall of the House of Malan") I will leave open to questioning.

There is no date given for the arrival of the Runegate triaty, or what form of kingship they may have had. Possibly Elmali.

I always speculated that the split into five clans was a move to make marriage meaningful again among the Colymar - possibly inspired by observing the Runegate and Tree Brother triaties with their marriage rules, and choosing a five-way split to do better than those. The Annmagarn are formed soon afterwards.

For a side note, the presentation in the Colymar Adventure Book makes it look like the Varmandi arrived in Ormthane Valley significantly before the Malani migratory group, and it was them who revived the Greenstone Temple (it looks like the great Earth Temples of Sartar all existed prior to the Dragonkill). They may have been a peace clan before being routed from their valley and temple by the Orlevings, but then Old Man Varmand (as I encountered him in Fall of the House of Malan wearing the role of Namold Tree Brother) was portrayed as a tenacious fighter and grudge-holder. But then, he may have taken over and reformed the clan after the Orlevings forced most of them into diaspora, possibly making those unwilling to leave the temple their tenants. On the other hand, the Adventure Book states that the loss of Greenstone temple happened under Varmand's son. This may benefit from some investigation.

 

 

Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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Orlanthi societies are very mutable, according to location. Sartar, much of Vesmonstran around the Upper Tanier, and most of the Provincial Kingdoms are rich in resources, so tribal groupings are very likely. In other areas, especially those reliant solely on herding, and even more those who are basically hunter-gatherers with fairly basic horticulture, clans are likely, and some areas will be too poor for centralized clans.

So you can find 'high kingdoms' composed of multiple tribes, tribes, clans, and family groups. All Orlanthi but varying in wealth and organization.

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19 hours ago, jajagappa said:

From the recent notes by Jeff on the Holy Country posted over in the RuneQuest forum, Heortland is not tribal (though Volsaxiland is).  Esrolia works through its Enfranchised Houses, which are "noble" clans that have many other client clans - so not tribal in the manner of Sartar.

That post was what got me thinking about this. I wrote up a bunch of tribes for Oranor a while ago, more than 20, but now I'm wondering if it makes sense to have that many. The thing is, as far as worldbuilding goes tribes are a nice way to organize things. Every tribe kind of has their own "thing." Then you pick a tribe that's interesting and make up clans. But increasingly Sartar is looking like an unusual case, with so many tribes compared to smaller numbers of clans. 

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On 6/12/2020 at 6:42 PM, Joerg said:

From the look of it, non-tribal Orlanthi are (currently a minority, as many are organized in kingdoms. There is no clear border between (oversized) tribes and kingdoms.

This is what I found when reading up on Talastar. They used to have a (kingdom) king of Talastar, but since a couple of decades, the post is open (it had a Lunar puppet in the end anyway). Instead we have a king of the Bilini, which is such an enormous tribe (25 clans or so, making the Colymar look small!) that the king of the Bilini comes pretty close to the king of Talastar. It's pretty much a theoretical distinction that he's a tribal king instead of a kingdom king.  

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2 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

This is what I found when reading up on Talastar.

It is confusing.

Talastar is a tribe with a king. Bilini is a tribe with a king. The Talastarings think that Bilini should still be a part of Talastar.

2 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

They used to have a (kingdom) king of Talastar, but since a couple of decades, the post is open (it had a Lunar puppet in the end anyway).

Bolthor Brighteyes was the king of Talastar when Hakon the Swimmer was king of the Bilini. In the "future" history of the olden days, Haglgrim kills Hakon and Bolthor, or his boys do, I forget, but doesn't become king of either Bilini or Talastar. 

2 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

It's pretty much a theoretical distinction that he's a tribal king instead of a kingdom king.  

Yes, in theory the tribal kings swear fealty to the king of the kingdom, but only if that king is strong enough to make them.

Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. 

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3 hours ago, soltakss said:

Talastar is a tribe with a king. Bilini is a tribe with a king. The Talastarings think that Bilini should still be a part of Talastar.

Bolthor Brighteyes was the king of Talastar when Hakon the Swimmer was king of the Bilini. In the "future" history of the olden days, Haglgrim kills Hakon and Bolthor, or his boys do, I forget, but doesn't become king of either Bilini or Talastar. 

I would have to read up, but I don’t think this is correct. Opand (r. 1590-1595) was the last king of Talastar, when Hrodar (king of the Bilini) overthrew him. The kings of the Bilini then follow from Hrodar (Eric, Hakon, Bolthor). What’s your source that Bolthor was king of the Talastari? His two big claims to rulership seem to have been being a compromise candidate and bearing Ironbreaker.

Hahlgrim is never king, I believe (I know the wiki says he was, but I believe that’s wrong). Oddi becomes king after Bolthor, and then we don’t even get hints about what happens after his endgame.

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On 6/14/2020 at 6:10 PM, Akhôrahil said:

I would have to read up, but I don’t think this is correct. Opand (r. 1590-1595) was the last king of Talastar, when Hrodar (king of the Bilini) overthrew him. The kings of the Bilini then follow from Hrodar (Eric, Hakon, Bolthor). 

Guide to Glorantha p342: Hakon the Swimmer, King of the Bilini: A great warrior, Hakon was chosen king of the Bilini after his predecessor was killed by the Orlanthi holy man Ketil White Eye. Hakon has given away land to Lakrene to keep the peace with the Lunar Empire, which led to his current feud with Hahlgrim Ironsword. 

On 6/14/2020 at 6:10 PM, Akhôrahil said:

What’s your source that Bolthor was king of the Talastari?

Guide to Glorantha p344: Hakon returned to persecuting Hahlgrim’s clan, so Hahlgrim returns to the Hold late in 7/50 (1621) to slay King Hakon. The tribal moot to choose the next king ends in violence and civil war, and Hahlgrim returns to Oxhead to become a devotee of Orlanth. In 7/52 (1623), Bolthor Brighteyes, the king of the Talastari, asks Hahlgrim to lead an army into Dorastor to confront the Chaos Horrors led by Ralzakark. 

 

 

 

Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. 

www.soltakss.com/index.html

Jonstown Compendium author. Find my contributions here

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41 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Guide to Glorantha p342: Hakon the Swimmer, King of the Bilini: A great warrior, Hakon was chosen king of the Bilini after his predecessor was killed by the Orlanthi holy man Ketil White Eye. Hakon has given away land to Lakrene to keep the peace with the Lunar Empire, which led to his current feud with Hahlgrim Ironsword. 

Guide to Glorantha p344: Hakon returned to persecuting Hahlgrim’s clan, so Hahlgrim returns to the Hold late in 7/50 (1621) to slay King Hakon. The tribal moot to choose the next king ends in violence and civil war, and Hahlgrim returns to Oxhead to become a devotee of Orlanth. In 7/52 (1623), Bolthor Brighteyes, the king of the Talastari, asks Hahlgrim to lead an army into Dorastor to confront the Chaos Horrors led by Ralzakark. 

Huh, that’s super weird. It looks like an outright error to me (it all makes sense if it would say “king of the Bilini” instead), because why on Earth would it be the only mention, anywhere, about an active kingdom king of Talastar post-Opand? You would think that would be important, plus it seems like thing that should be mentioned when texts talk about him becoming king of the Bilini. Not only is it a bit odd for a kingdom king to also pick up a tribal king title, but the text also says that the deciding factor was that he carried Ironbreaker.

Also note what it says on p. 341, of the Bilini rebellion ”shattering the short-lived kingdom”, making it clear that the kingdom of Talastar is gone (and, interestingly, making it seem like the Talastari didn’t have a king before, perhaps working out more like a tribal federation dominated by the Bilini?).

I think it makes more sense to assume either that p. 344 is wrong, or that it’s merely not precise (Bolthor is king over a large part of the Talastari merely through being Bilini king, after all).

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