Superhero games

[Atgxtg]

GURPS SUPERS and Heroes Unlimited

Both systems badly needed an non-lethal combat option, but didn't get one. Our group got the message when I started wondering why my hero character was toting around an SMG.

HU's "one power" rule probably made it the worst supers RPG. THe pwers didn't balance, and as the game was combat driven, and fights ended with someone dead/dying, the result was a very, very bloody RPG. Too bloody for the genre.

Yeah, were talking about the same Golden Heroes.

Actually character creation wasn't that bad, since you have to justify your powers with your origin story. You got some extra powers, but were expected to drop some. With a good GM and players, character creation worked.

There was also an alternate version similar to V&V that broke up powers by type, better fitting certain concepts.

GH played very well and had some nice ideas. For one thing, it allowed a thug to be able to actually kill a civilian with a single shot, something that was tough in most other hero RPGs at the time.

GH also had some neat stuff, like the campaign ratings, that helped to flesh out things. I also liked the HTC/HTK way of handling damage much better than the methods used in Champions or Superworld.

[Kloster]

I'd argue that wasn't a bad scenario, just a specialized one; it did a pretty good job with the teen heroes genre of the time, but if that wasn't what you were after...

Even for a very specialized one, I found it bad.

It's true I've never been a fan of teen heroes, but this one ...

Almost the only one I find acceptable are the one about the Something Academy, for Champions New millenium (the one using Fuzion system).

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[Kloster]

Not really. While Champions had an influence there was as much influence from V&V on it; in fact, the origin of Superworld was an attempt to take V&V and BRP-ize it, according to Steve Perrin.

This I have read, but I think the Champions influence is more clear (The point system for buying powers, with advantages and limitations, forex).

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[Atgxtg]

No, Champions wins, no question asked, for the best support and the sheer amount of products.

Even if, from France, I never had the ability to see all the production on the subject, here is what I saw or have (in addition to rules):

- Superworld - 3 products.

- Villains and Vigilantes (FGU): Around 10 scenarii I do have.

- MSH (TSR) and Advanced (Sic) MSH: 5 sextensions and around 20 scenarii.

- DC Heroes (Mayfair Games) : 3 extensions.

- Golden Heroes (Games Workshop) : 2 Introductory scenarii (excellent).

- Heroes unlimited (Palladium) : 1 extensions.

- Champions (Hero Games) : more than 30 Scenarii and more than 50 extensions.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

I think your missing some stuff for Marvel and DC. DC did release some adventures, and I own at least 3 supplements. Likewise there were more products for Marvel.

Still, I'll concede that Champions out supported the others. It used to be HERO's flagship RPG, and at one time it's only RPG.

I think TSR Mavel probably outsold it through. Marvel and DC had an advantage in being able to use their own universes. Since most Super gamers read comics that is a telling edge.

[Kloster]

GURPS SUPERS and Heroes Unlimited

Both systems badly needed an non-lethal combat option, but didn't get one. Our group got the message when I started wondering why my hero character was toting around an SMG.

HU's "one power" rule probably made it the worst supers RPG. THe pwers didn't balance, and as the game was combat driven, and fights ended with someone dead/dying, the result was a very, very bloody RPG. Too bloody for the genre.

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Agree!!!

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Yeah, were talking about the same Golden Heroes.

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There was also an alternate version similar to V&V that broke up powers by type, better fitting certain concepts.

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Mine was a blue box, A4, about 5 to 7 cm height.

It seems from your descriptions it was the 2nd.

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Actually character creation wasn't that bad, since you have to justify your powers with your origin story. You got some extra powers, but were expected to drop some. With a good GM and players, character creation worked.

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Yeah, true. Magic, energy projection, HTH Attack and Bionic brain (if I remember well what I rolled up around 20 years ago).

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GH played very well and had some nice ideas. For one thing, it allowed a thug to be able to actually kill a civilian with a single shot, something that was tough in most other hero RPGs at the time.

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Yes, and I like it.

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GH also had some neat stuff, like the campaign ratings, that helped to flesh out things. I also liked the HTC/HTK way of handling damage much better than the methods used in Champions or Superworld.

I would not say it worked better than in Champions, but it worked well.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[Atgxtg]

This I have read, but I think the Champions influence is more clear (The point system for buying powers, with advantages and limitations, forex).

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

Yeah, I'm with Kloster. I see little V&V in Superworld, but lots of Champions. The whole build your character with points approach, flaws, all point to Chanpions.

What V&V stuff is there in the game?

[Kloster]

I think your missing some stuff for Marvel and DC. DC did release some adventures, and I own at least 3 supplements. Likewise there were more products for Marvel.

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As I explained, from France were Super Hero rpg never managed to succeed, I never managed to get more. That does not mean those companies never produced anything else. I know for instance that Silver Age Sentinels had quite a number of extensions, bu I never managed to get hand on one.

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I think TSR Mavel probably outsold it through. Marvel and DC had an advantage in being able to use their own universes. Since most Super gamers read comics that is a telling edge.

For the figures, I don't know, but for the analysis, I agree.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[Nightshade]

Yeah, I'm with Kloster. I see little V&V in Superworld, but lots of Champions. The whole build your character with points approach, flaws, all point to Chanpions.

What V&V stuff is there in the game?

Its a bit more obvious if you look at the Worlds of Wonder version; the way certain powers were structured, the free side ability with various energy blasts, and so on.

[Nightshade]

This I have read, but I think the Champions influence is more clear (The point system for buying powers, with advantages and limitations, forex).

The structure of the powers and choice of how they were set up was derived directly from V&V however; that's one reason a conversion was so easy.

[Kloster]

Its a bit more obvious if you look at the Worlds of Wonder version; the way certain powers were structured, the free side ability with various energy blasts, and so on.

OK (Just checked), but, for me, this is not as visible as the Champions influence.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[Nightshade]

OK (Just checked), but, for me, this is not as visible as the Champions influence.

I think that's just because people see Champions in much of _any_ point build superhero game. Certainly by the time of the standalone version, the Champs influence was more prounounced, but the disadvantage system in the WoW version was immensely more sketchy than any version of Hero; it showed what it was, which was an attempt to convert V&V's random generation into a choice based process, and still have some function for drawbacks and limitations that was simple.

[Atgxtg]

I think that's just because people see Champions in much of _any_ point build superhero game. Certainly by the time of the standalone version, the Champs influence was more prounounced, but the disadvantage system in the WoW version was immensely more sketchy than any version of Hero; it showed what it was, which was an attempt to convert V&V's random generation into a choice based process, and still have some function for drawbacks and limitations that was simple.

More like, how much detail can they go into and cover the requirements for a super RPG. I just do see V&V in it. Don't see any V&V type rules...

[Kloster]

...but the disadvantage system in the WoW version was immensely more sketchy than any version of Hero; it showed what it was, which was an attempt to convert V&V's random generation into a choice based process, and still have some function for drawbacks and limitations that was simple.

Sketchy, to say the least.

I think that's just because people see Champions in much of _any_ point build superhero game. Certainly by the time of the standalone version, the Champs influence was more prounounced, but the disadvantage system in the WoW version was immensely more sketchy than any version of Hero; it showed what it was, which was an attempt to convert V&V's random generation into a choice based process, and still have some function for drawbacks and limitations that was simple.

OK, now I see what you mean.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[Kloster]

:focus:

Is there anyone of you who plan to use Basic Roleplaying to play a superhero game? If so, how do you game such a setting? Superhero stuff have very little appeal to me, but I would like to hear how other people are planning to use this part, and how the setting would be.

SGL.

No, not for my part. Champions is so much better at it. I reserve BRP for Fantasy/Modern settings (never tried Futuristic ones with it).

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[Nightshade]

More like, how much detail can they go into and cover the requirements for a super RPG. I just do see V&V in it. Don't see any V&V type rules...

Again, take a look at the Energy Blast power. Note that every one of these has a free minor side power associated with it. Now look at V&V damage type powers, and note that barring the Power Weapon/Power Blast power, that's just how they were structured.

Now turn to enhanced attributes as a power. Note that V&V was for a long time, the _only_ superhero game that broke out attribute enhancement that way, because it was the only one where that was relevant.

There's more (the distinction between the Super-Speed power and the later movement addition power for example, which also followed a V&V example), but those are pretty good fingerprints of its origin. As far as that goes, so is Superworld "Martial Arts" which is descended from V&V Heightened Attack and its kin.

[Kloster]

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All in all, Superworld was probably the worse case of sell for Chaosium in France.

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The figures I managed to get back were (several years ago, about the time when Coc 5.5 was published), when combining US imports, british (Games Workshop) imports and french language publishing:

- Worlds of Wonder : Below 50 (Never published in french).

- Superworld : Around 30 (Never published in french).

- ElfQuest : Around 200 (Never published in french).

- Ringworld : Unknown figures (Never published in french).

- RQII : Around 2000 (Never published in french).

- RQIII: Around 15000 (Published in french).

- SB1 : Around 30000 (Published in french)

- SB>1 : Unknown figures (Never published in french).

- Hawkmoon Around 10000 (Published in French)

- CoC : Over 80000 (Not counting 5.5). 2nd best selling RPG ever.

- BaSIC. : (WoW BRP updated) Over 50000 (Published in french).

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[TriOpticon]

The figures I managed to get back were (several years ago, about the time when Coc 5.5 was published), when combining US imports, british (Games Workshop) imports and french language publishing:

- Worlds of Wonder : Below 50 (Never published in french).

- Superworld : Around 30 (Never published in french).

What does 30 represent? 30 games, 30000 games or something else?

All these posts bring back memories of playing V&V, Champions and SuperWorld. I definitely would like to give a superhero resource a try for BRP once it comes out. I guess I'll have to wait till that happens, though. I would hope Chaosium is looking into this genre plus others for future expansions/supplements.

[Kloster]

What does 30 represent? 30 games, 30000 games or something else?

All these posts bring back memories of playing V&V, Champions and SuperWorld. I definitely would like to give a superhero resource a try for BRP once it comes out. I guess I'll have to wait till that happens, though. I would hope Chaosium is looking into this genre plus others for future expansions/supplements.

30 means 30 games. CoC was over 80000 games.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[Atgxtg]

Interesting.

Your figures seem to show not only how important it is to provide the game in the local language (no surprise), but just how useful a literary tie in is.

[Kloster]

Interesting.

Your figures seem to show not only how important it is to provide the game in the local language (no surprise), but just how useful a literary tie in is.

No surprise! :thumb:

It is also because, except for CoC, they were nicer and much cheaper than US or UK ones. Best example was RQIII (Between 450 and 550 FF for AH version, 249 FF for Oriflam french one).

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[NickMiddleton]

The figures I managed to get back were (several years ago, about the time when Coc 5.5 was published), when combining US imports, british (Games Workshop) imports and french language publishing:

- Worlds of Wonder : Below 50 (Never published in french).

- Superworld : Around 30 (Never published in french).

- ElfQuest : Around 200 (Never published in french).

- Ringworld : Unknown figures (Never published in french).

- RQII : Around 2000 (Never published in french).

- RQIII: Around 15000 (Published in french).

- SB1 : Around 30000 (Published in french)

- SB>1 : Unknown figures (Never published in french).

- Hawkmoon Around 10000 (Published in French)

- CoC : Over 80000 (Not counting 5.5). 2nd best selling RPG ever.

- BaSIC. : (WoW BRP updated) Over 50000 (Published in french).

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

Where exactly do these figures come from? And when? There's a dearth of reliable figures in the industry, so I'm intrigued to know what these numbers actually represent. This is sales in France, correct? Up to what date?

Cheers,

Nick Middleton

[Simlasa]

I was never much into mainstream superhero comics... but I've been a fan of plenty of superhero characters... like The Shadow and Doc Savage and the Green Hornet...

I've had a campaign idea for a while about a city with a collapsed infrastructure (based on parts of Detroit I've been to) that is full of pulp era vigilantes jockeying for power. Some have 'powerz' but none of them are close to the ridiculous extremes of Superman/Thor/Green Lantern... they team up into loose gangs... good vs. evil is relative to outlook... kind of a gangland setting with powers tossed in.

Regarding the powers the superhero comics seemed to have cinematic logic that altered the character's powers depending on the need of the story... in ways that wouldn't transfer in solidly quantifiable ways to any game system.

But I've been really interested in 'grittier' storylines and systems like Godlike and Wild Talents and some of the 'pulp' systems. Taking real world physics into account somewhat and making the heroes a lot more three dimensional as well... they can kill or be killed... can dwell in the gray areas.

[Atgxtg]

I was never much into mainstream superhero comics... but I've been a fan of plenty of superhero characters... like The Shadow and Doc Savage and the Green Hornet...

I've had a campaign idea for a while about a city with a collapsed infrastructure (based on parts of Detroit I've been to) that is full of pulp era vigilantes jockeying for power. Some have 'powerz' but none of them are close to the ridiculous extremes of Superman/Thor/Green Lantern... they team up into loose gangs... good vs. evil is relative to outlook... kind of a gangland setting with powers tossed in.

Regarding the powers the superhero comics seemed to have cinematic logic that altered the character's powers depending on the need of the story... in ways that wouldn't transfer in solidly quantifiable ways to any game system.

But I've been really interested in 'grittier' storylines and systems like Godlike and Wild Talents and some of the 'pulp' systems. Taking real world physics into account somewhat and making the heroes a lot more three dimensional as well... they can kill or be killed... can dwell in the gray areas.

A couple of things.

First off Sprit of the Century is a pulp style game. One thing nice about it is that the game works with pulp logic, rather than the typical RPG dice and points style. Several other super RPGs do try to take "comic logi" into account. While some things do vary by writer as does all forms of cinematic stroytelling, there are a few consistiences-such as:

-Blunt weapons knock out/beat up/ sharp weapons kill

-Powerful hits send people flying

-It doesn't matter how far you fell as long as someone catches you before you reach the ground.

-If you are tougher than what you land on, fall hurt the ground, not you.

-If you are strong enough to lift something, you can do so, despite things like leverage, ground pressure, or structural strength.

-If you build it, it will be just the thing you need to defeat the next villain you come across.

-Everybody dies sometime, but supers, and their friends, family and enemies do not stay dead, unless their name is Ben Parker, Jor-El or Wayne (Parental figures don't do well, must be something about the target audience).

Secondly, a few RPGs have gone the real world physics route. Wildcards for instance. One example was a superstong hero jumping out in front of a speeding truck as per the comics. Rather than stopping the truck, the hero got sent flying, and learned a lesson about momentum and leverage.

In the comics a superhero might be able to lift a battleship, but in the real world he would probably break the ship, or drive the character into the ground like a tent peg. Likewise, catching a falling person a few feet before the hit the ground just means that they fall into the hero and take damage rather than falling onto concrete.

[Simlasa]

'Pulp' is a pretty open description... not really a genre or a style, though some people nowadays assume it to mean a high-flying, gonzo, kitchen sink of tomfoolery...

If I wanted to play cinematic games Spirit Of The Century seems to be the darling-boy for that right now over on RPG.net...

But some folks (like me) don't like cinematics...

I don't want 4 color superhero games but do like the idea of gritty games centered on vigilantes with odd powers... some of them might wear spandex but that won't keep them from being turned into pulp.

BRP seems well suited to that sort of thing.

[drohem]

I might get stoned for saying this, but...

My group is currently playing a World War II Supers campaign using the net PDF Deeds Not Words for the d20 system. We are playing the gritty campaign mode with mulitple GMs. Each GM runs a one-shot adventure with his own PC doing some support role away from the main group. We started in late 1936 and are currently in spring of 1938.

I just ran an adventure where the group entered Austria via Switzerland about a week after it was annexed by Germany to rescue a Polish-Jew scientist who specialized in genetics and mutants and get him across the Danube River into Czechoslovakia.

Thus far we have had a really mix of fights and PC's. Some of the PCs are bruisers (Experiment and Supernatural Origins) and some are regular people (Baseline Origin).

We originally started a normal supers campaign with the d20 net PDF Powers Overwhelming, but quickly called it Powers Overbroken and abandoned those rules in favor of Deeds Not Words.

There are two supplements for Deeds Not Words: Laying the Smack Down and Bold Costumes, Black Hearts.

Supers is the least favorite genre for me (literary and RPG). However, I found that the combination of World War II, gritty campaign mode, and mulitple GMs have really sparked my interest in this type of Supers campaign.

Anyway, if you're looking for a decent supers rules set, and don't mind d20 system, then you should check out Deeds Not Words.