Superhero games

[Atgxtg]

'Pulp' is a pretty open description... not really a genre or a style, though some people nowadays assume it to mean a high-flying, gonzo, kitchen sink of tomfoolery...

If I wanted to play cinematic games Spirit Of The Century seems to be the darling-boy for that right now over on RPG.net...

But some folks (like me) don't like cinematics...

I don't want 4 color superhero games but do like the idea of gritty games centered on vigilantes with odd powers... some of them might wear spandex but that won't keep them from being turned into pulp.

BRP seems well suited to that sort of thing.

I was thinking of pulp as in the style of 1920s-30s fiction. Since you listed the Shadow in your concepts SotC came to mind, since it is designed around that style era. Another nice thing is that SotC is derrived from FATE, which has a much gritter damage track.

If you want gritty with superpowers, then games like CORPS come to mind. Even BRP might work if you keep the power levels down.

Another option would be the approach for horror adventures. That is add/pervert a non-super RPG to handle powers.

Personally, I like cinema style, or "pulp style". For something like the Shadow or Green Hornet (the latter I wrote up stats for in SotC), SotC would be my first choice. The system allows you to pull off the sort of things that happen in the pulps. For instance, the "Master of Disguise" stunt lets a PC drop out for awhile, and then take over an nameless NPC, unmask and reveal himself. That's perfect for the Shadow.

[Simlasa]

Yeah, I've kinda got a chip on my shoulder about SOTC... mainly because of the ravers on RPG.net... who think it can do anything and everything better than anything else.

You're right about The Shadow... I was thinking of him... and a lot of the 'lesser powered' heroes... like The Spider and The Avenger.

I don't think heroes like that would overpower BRP...

[Atgxtg]

Yeah, I've kinda got a chip on my shoulder about SOTC... mainly because of the ravers on RPG.net... who think it can do anything and everything better than anything else.

SotC is nice, but does have it's own flaws and shortcomings. I found it neat becuase it is a radical shift from the sort of RPGs I am familiar with. Still, it isn't a bad game, does have a free SRD available, and shouldn't be penalized becuase of what fans type about it.

You're right about The Shadow... I was thinking of him... and a lot of the 'lesser powered' heroes... like The Spider and The Avenger.

I don't think heroes like that would overpower BRP...

Basically the non-powered heroes. Most pulp heroes didn't have powers per say, but were very skilled, and made use of advanced science and or mystical traditions that were new to the west.

I agree that such heroes wouldn't overpower BRP. In fact, in one CoC campaign, th GM swiped liberally from early Batman. Hugo Strange was one of the reoccurring villains, and one players was gifted at running Batman.

The biggest problem with pulp heroes is that some are "too good" in too many fields to work well in BRP. The Shadow (the pulp version and the radio version) and the Green Hornet (especially the radio version, before SuperKato) are workable in BRP. Someone like Doc Savage is, in many ways, worse than a character with a superpower. Savage is annoyingly, an expert in everything, and is perfected well adjusted and a prime physical specimen to boot. At least Batman has emotional baggage.

In mnay respects CoC 1920s can handle pulp, but you'd probably need to beef up the characters a little to get them up to the standards of pulp heroes. Actually the rules for Supers from WoW could do nicely, if the GM puts caps on, or outright restricts some of the more blatant powers.

For example the Green Hornet would be easy. Most points would be spent to get the right characteristics and skills, with a few points spent for a gas gun (say level 6 or so), and some speed for the Black beauty (to hit 200mph back in the 30s and 40s).

[Simlasa]

It hadn't occurred to me before, but Doc Savage must have been the inspiration for Buckaroo Banzai... brain surgeon, inventor, man about town.

The guys I game with have wanted to play a superhero game for a while... but we keep going round and round with what we want. We all seem to have different power levels as our ideal.

Another thing I'd like to try is a BRP version of The Whispering Vault... which sometimes is described as a something like a superhero game... 'Clive Barker's Superfriends' I think the line is... I don't think Vault's powers are so extreme though that they'd 'break' the system... they're just odd. It'd probably be a good fit for COC with some stuff from Superworld.

[Kloster]

Where exactly do these figures come from? And when? There's a dearth of reliable figures in the industry, so I'm intrigued to know what these numbers actually represent. This is sales in France, correct? Up to what date?

Cheers,

Nick Middleton

The figures were the ones given by the french editors, compiled by a french mag in 2000 (Backstab) for the french editions.

For the english langage ones, it was estimates given by the main importers.

And it was the sales in France only, even if I'm sure that for the french language editions, it was the total sales made by the editor for all french speaking countries (Jeux Descartes for CoC, Oriflam for all the others).

I also remember an aticle by MOB in an old TotrM where he reviewed the french RQ and explained that the Oriflam sales for France were in the same league as the ones of AH worldwide, but I've never checked that.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[Nightshade]

I might get stoned for saying this, but...

My group is currently playing a World War II Supers campaign using the net PDF Deeds Not Words for the d20 system. We are playing the gritty campaign mode with mulitple GMs. Each GM runs a one-shot adventure with his own PC doing some support role away from the main group. We started in late 1936 and are currently in spring of 1938.

I just ran an adventure where the group entered Austria via Switzerland about a week after it was annexed by Germany to rescue a Polish-Jew scientist who specialized in genetics and mutants and get him across the Danube River into Czechoslovakia.

Thus far we have had a really mix of fights and PC's. Some of the PCs are bruisers (Experiment and Supernatural Origins) and some are regular people (Baseline Origin).

We originally started a normal supers campaign with the d20 net PDF Powers Overwhelming, but quickly called it Powers Overbroken and abandoned those rules in favor of Deeds Not Words.

There are two supplements for Deeds Not Words: Laying the Smack Down and Bold Costumes, Black Hearts.

Supers is the least favorite genre for me (literary and RPG). However, I found that the combination of World War II, gritty campaign mode, and mulitple GMs have really sparked my interest in this type of Supers campaign.

Anyway, if you're looking for a decent supers rules set, and don't mind d20 system, then you should check out Deeds Not Words.

Given what you say here, you might want to look up Godlike

on the Web at some point, if you haven't already heard about it.

[Nightshade]

Yeah, I've kinda got a chip on my shoulder about SOTC... mainly because of the ravers on RPG.net... who think it can do anything and everything better than anything else.

That's pretty much "I've fallen in love with Game X" mode though; I've heard that from people about any game with any general purpose utility over the years--including BRP...

[TriOpticon]

Anyway, if you're looking for a decent supers rules set, and don't mind d20 system, then you should check out Deeds Not Words.

I had not heard of these rules before. Thanks for the info.

[GerallKahla]

That's pretty much "I've fallen in love with Game X" mode though; I've heard that from people about any game with any general purpose utility over the years--including BRP...

True enough - I've been accused of this with BRP, but they keep playing my games...

As for SotC, I've played it twice. Once in it's original form, another with it mutated to support roleplaying in Conan's Hyperboria.

SotC didn't give me the feeling like I was affecting anything; the system didn't keep my attention too long, and I bowed out of further sittings.

I just couldn't feel any traction with the system. But that's just my opinion, obviously.

-regards-

[drohem]

Given what you say here, you might want to look up Godlike

on the Web at some point, if you haven't already heard about it.

I've read of its existence, but never researched any further. I'll take a look. Thanks for the heads-up.

[Simlasa]

Godlike and Wild Talents (the modern day version of the setting) have loads of interesting ideas in them... I'm not in love with the ORE system but I think a lot of the stuff is easily borrowed for other superhero games... the guys in these games aren't immortal or ultra-uber powerful.

About SOTC and game love:

I've done the same with BRP... believing it can do whatever I want to try.

Maybe any system can do that sort of thing if you grok it well enough and are comfortable with tinkering.

I've got a lot of different rulebooks but I'm inclined to find the one that works for me and stick with it... rather than hopping around.

I'm not yet of the camp that loves the rules to reinforce the genre... I guess I'm a 'dirty simulationist'...

[Atgxtg]

Godlike and Wild Talents (the modern day version of the setting) have loads of interesting ideas in them... I'm not in love with the ORE system but I think a lot of the stuff is easily borrowed for other superhero games... the guys in these games aren't immortal or ultra-uber powerful.

About SOTC and game love:

I've done the same with BRP... believing it can do whatever I want to try.

Maybe any system can do that sort of thing if you grok it well enough and are comfortable with tinkering.

I've got a lot of different rulebooks but I'm inclined to find the one that works for me and stick with it... rather than hopping around.

I'm not yet of the camp that loves the rules to reinforce the genre... I guess I'm a 'dirty simulationist'...

Yup, you cvan pretty much do anything with any system, if you have a mind to, and are willing to do a little work. Some systems are better suited towards certain things than others, and results can vary, but it can be done.

[Nightshade]

Yup, you cvan pretty much do anything with any system, if you have a mind to, and are willing to do a little work. Some systems are better suited towards certain things than others, and results can vary, but it can be done.

Though I'd argue at some point you're hammering nails with a wrench; it can be done, but its really going about it backwards.

[Atgxtg]

Though I'd argue at some point you're hammering nails with a wrench; it can be done, but its really going about it backwards.

Yup. Some times it is better just to find a system that's suited towards your goals. You reach a point where it isn't IF, but WHY?

[TRose]

Yup, you cvan pretty much do anything with any system, if you have a mind to, and are willing to do a little work. Some systems are better suited towards certain things than others, and results can vary, but it can be done.

Have to agree there think most of us that come here have played long enough that we could convert a Call of Cthullu adventure to Bunnies and Burrows and not work up a sweat.

And why hammer a nail with a wrench ,that what wrecking balls are for. Now you just hold the nail while I get the ball swinging .One swing should do it.

[Atgxtg]

Have to agree there think most of us that come here have played long enough that we could convert a Call of Cthullu adventure to Bunnies and Burrows and not work up a sweat.

And why hammer a nail with a wrench ,that what wrecking balls are for. Now you just hold the nail while I get the ball swinging .One swing should do it.

I suspect that with this crowd, one reason why we can do that is because we've had to. Some games get lots of support, but most RPGs don't. So fans of those games often convert stuff and adapt it for their own favorite RPGs.

In the past, we sort of had to work that way to get the game that we wanted. Now, with so many differernt RPGs, past and present, the need to convert is less.

[seneschal]

The game system really does affect the "feel" of your campaign. That's why I enjoy Hero System for superheroing (although I realize not everyone here is a fan). Especially with 3rd edition, it was hard for your character to get killed, encouraging cinematic brawls and outrageous stunts. And the system really does allow you to create nearly any character you've seen in comics or can imagine.

Villians & Vigilantes was also fun but you were limited to the predefined (and randomly selected) powers. Also, since you were playing yourself with powers, that's how the game system felt: "normals with powers." You might have awesome cosmic energies at your command, but you'd still huff and puff climbing the stairs -- and a kid with a pea shooter might be able to take you out.

Palladium's superhero game, Heroes Unlimited, had a feel similar to V&V. Combat was surprisingly lethal to a Champions player. Unless you had the power Invulnerability you'd better have ducked when the bad guys started shooting. And the random power assignment could lead to some kooky character concepts. That's OK as long as you didn't have a particular character type in mind, but if you'd wanted to play an homage to your favorite scarlet speedster it could be disconcerting to roll up a Robocop clone with pink horns and a prehensile tail. One thing I did like was the scads of skills every Heroes Unlimited character was required to pick. Before 5th edtion, a Hero System character practically had to choose between having powers or having skills. It was nice, in Palladium, to be able to do something other than melt brick walls with your breath.

By the same token, the game system affected the campaign's "feel" when my friends and I played Traveller. We were inspired by the likes of Flash Gordon, Captain Kirk and Luke Skywalker but because combat was so lethal and earning credits so essential, our characters tended to sneak around like scheming Harry Mudds. We still had loads of fun, but the rules didn't encourage brash heroics.

Based on the discussion so far, it sounds like a BRP supers system would have a "feel" similar to Palladium or V&V. That's fine if you're portraying costumed crimefighters or pulp heroes armed with weird science gadgets. It might not work quite so well if you're wanting to play Superman or the Fantastic Four. I've personally never been fond of "grim and gritty" comics. If I want realism I'll read the newspaper. Superhero stories are supposed to help you escape reality.

[Simlasa]

I like to escape reality too... but I tend to go for darker settings... maybe because they make me feel better about the reality I'm gonna come home to afterward.

[Nightshade]

Yup. Some times it is better just to find a system that's suited towards your goals. You reach a point where it isn't IF, but WHY?

Well, sometimes you're stuck with the problem that there's just no appropriate tool for the job, and you have to use the closest one; or when there are external reasons you use it even though it isn't ideal. As an example, if you've got a bunch of hardcore BRP fans, but everyone wants to play a high-cinematic game, in practice you're probably going to end up doing your best to make some flavor of BRP work for that, even though its contrary to the general biases of the system (which tends to lean toward the gritty and relatively realistic), because starting with a more appropriate base system just isn't an option (this is why people do the opposite with D20 so often). But it really isn't the ideal way to go; pick the closest to what you want among the available systems and work from there is usually better.

[Nightshade]

I suspect that with this crowd, one reason why we can do that is because we've had to. Some games get lots of support, but most RPGs don't. So fans of those games often convert stuff and adapt it for their own favorite RPGs.

In the past, we sort of had to work that way to get the game that we wanted. Now, with so many differernt RPGs, past and present, the need to convert is less.

That's particularly true of some of us who are particular old hands in the hobby; there was a time when your choice of tools was very limited, and you made do as best you could. These days there's a lot more options to work from though.

[Atgxtg]

Well, sometimes you're stuck with the problem that there's just no appropriate tool for the job, and you have to use the closest one; or when there are external reasons you use it even though it isn't ideal. As an example, if you've got a bunch of hardcore BRP fans, but everyone wants to play a high-cinematic game, in practice you're probably going to end up doing your best to make some flavor of BRP work for that, even though its contrary to the general biases of the system (which tends to lean toward the gritty and relatively realistic), because starting with a more appropriate base system just isn't an option (this is why people do the opposite with D20 so often). But it really isn't the ideal way to go; pick the closest to what you want among the available systems and work from there is usually better.

Oh, yeah, I definitely with you on this one. It is less true today with all the different systems out there, but was certainly the case in the 90s and 80s. Often I would have an idea for a campaign, and then try to determine what was the best system to adapt for that purpose.

Or, when I wanted to run one thing, with a bunch of players who didn't want to try a new system. I did a D&D/Glorantha crossover under just such conditions (and with 3.0, too).

For the most part, though, most genres have multiple games to cover them, so we have more options than on the past.

[Nightshade]

Based on the discussion so far, it sounds like a BRP supers system would have a "feel" similar to Palladium or V&V. That's fine if you're portraying costumed crimefighters or pulp heroes armed with weird science gadgets. It might not work quite so well if you're wanting to play Superman or the Fantastic Four. I've personally never been fond of "grim and gritty" comics. If I want realism I'll read the newspaper. Superhero stories are supposed to help you escape reality.

Its not quite that bad. Superworld could do a credible job of handling low to middle end Marvel characters reasonably well; there were some changes in what running out of hit points meant, and a power that allowed you to buy extra hit points (and that was clearly meant to be virtually universally used) that buffered some of BRPs more harsh systems. It was actually fairly unlikely to die in a superfight with those in use unless someone was deliberately setting out to kill you. And the range of powers in the standalone version of Superworld was fairly large, and you got to chose them out of a point pool, so you didn't have some of the random silliness that could result in V&V or HU. It just didn't work well for really high powered supers (in a Different Worlds article some years ago, Steve Perrin had some telling comments about the difficulty he had putting together a credible Magneto for the X-Men examples he was doing) or those with an extremely wide range of powers (you'd have difficulty even doing a lower powered version of Green Lantern because of the variety of powers they exhibit). But within that range, it was actually a pretty credible Bronze Age supers game.

[Atgxtg]

Perhaps the biggest challenge has less to do with game mechanics but with game style. For instance many RPGs need to work some sort of balance of power between characters, or at least between the PCs and their opponents.

Supers games don't. Batman just isn't in the same league as Superman (okay, they are both in the Justice League), and can't really compete with him. In the comics they get around this by having Batman use his brains. Even that is bending things a bit. Supes is supposed to be very intelligent, but acts like a musclebound idiot most of the time. For instance he has superspeed, but tends to rely on his invulnerabilty-thus he get shot with the kryptonite bullet. Or he pauses when someone threatens a civilan despite the fact that he has 100 differernt ways to disarm/defdeat a foe before they could carry out the threat.

Now most RPG rules aren't really set to to give the right advance for handling such situations, and a "similationist" RPG i probably going to backfire on such applications.

[fmitchell]

Perhaps the biggest challenge has less to do with game mechanics but with game style. For instance many RPGs need to work some sort of balance of power between characters, or at least between the PCs and their opponents.

Supers games don't. Batman just isn't in the same league as Superman (okay, they are both in the Justice League), and can't really compete with him. In the comics they get around this by having Batman use his brains. Even that is bending things a bit. Supes is supposed to be very intelligent, but acts like a musclebound idiot most of the time. For instance he has superspeed, but tends to rely on his invulnerabilty-thus he get shot with the kryptonite bullet. Or he pauses when someone threatens a civilan despite the fact that he has 100 differernt ways to disarm/defdeat a foe before they could carry out the threat.

If you've seen Truth & Justice from Atomic Sock Monkey, the author explicitly tries to reproduce these sort of plot-dependent powers. Not to delve too deeply into the rules (what there is of them), every use of power is a roll against that power's rating. So, you can pit Superman's "Kryptonian Physique" +6 against Batman's "Gadgeteer" +6 directly, and the odds would be 50/50; if Supes won, he'd knock Bats for a loop (but not actually drive his fist through Bats' body, as he might in real life); if Bats won, he'd have some secret weapon in his utility belt that hurt Supes for that round.

[Kloster]

If you've seen Truth & Justice from Atomic Sock Monkey, the author explicitly tries to reproduce these sort of plot-dependent powers. Not to delve too deeply into the rules (what there is of them), every use of power is a roll against that power's rating. So, you can pit Superman's "Kryptonian Physique" +6 against Batman's "Gadgeteer" +6 directly, and the odds would be 50/50; if Supes won, he'd knock Bats for a loop (but not actually drive his fist through Bats' body, as he might in real life); if Bats won, he'd have some secret weapon in his utility belt that hurt Supes for that round.

Very interesting idea.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster