Questions concerning converting older material

[GeneralMayhem]

Hi, first i want to clarify that have never played any older editions of runequest, and my knowledge of lore is based on 3 corebooks (I do not yet have either glorantha source book or guide to glorantha) and king of dragon pass.

1. Is lunar magic just rune magic but from lunar empire cults or is it 4th kind of magic that is yet to be implemented in RQG?
2. Is converting magic from older editions a hard task? Is current magic system similar to the one back then, or has it changed drastically?
3. Same question as number 2 But for cults from older editions.

[Bill the barbarian]

9 minutes ago, GeneralMayhem said:

Hi, first i want to clarify that have never played any older editions of runequest, and my knowledge of lore is based on 3 corebooks (I do not yet have either glorantha source book or guide to glorantha) and king of dragon pass.

Normally speaking, I say conversion is easy, however Lunar magic as is it now is an exception. It did not exist in previous editions of RQ as a separate entity until RQ 3 and then it existed as an amalgam of  spirit magic/sorcery but of the RQ 3 variety of course.

Cults are a smaller problem but still a bit sticky as some common spells have been moved about some spells a cult used to have are gone and some have been added and there  have been subtle mods to some cult’s very nature as well. 

Edited August 14, 2020 by Bill the barbarian

[g33k]

 

1.  The Lunars do have "regular" rune-magic, but the Moon-Rune is kind of a "rulebreaker" rune within that paradigm.

1a.  The Lunars also embrace Sorcery much more than the Orlanthi peoples do, and the Sorcery rules (in the RQG core book) are less-robust than for Spirit & Rune magic at this time.

2.  RQ2 (Chaosium) and RQ3 (Avalon Hill) convert readily.  Mongoose RQ's MRQI & MRQII a bit less so, but it's still related mechanics, & do-able with a bit of extra care; TDM "RQ6" (and it's immediate replacement Mythras) are also pretty easy to convert; note that the later games have FIVE magic systems, rather than just the Spirit/Rune/Sorcery of RQG.

2a.  What was "Battle Magic" in RQ2 became "Spirit Magic" in RQ3, and still is in RQG; Rune Magic spells are similar to the older editions, but now are cast by per-deity "pools" of Rune-Points -- sacrifice a POW, get a +1 to your Rune Pool, and another of the god's special Rune Spells (don't have to sac for a list of "common" Rune spells (but you need the Rune Pool to fuel casting).  Rune Pools refresh at worship-ceremonies on Holy Days.

3.  The cults are all, broadly speaking, very similar between editions.  Mind you, there HAS been evolution in the past several decades, so it's worth reading any cult a player expresses interest in, or you'd like to use for a significant NPC/rival/threat/etc.

 

4.The Lunars also embrace mysticism / Illumination more than the Orlanthi do, and again this is less supported in the existing rules.

 

RE #1a & #4 ... cue abominably-old jokes about "we'll have those rules next year!"

Edited August 14, 2020 by g33k
worship

[jajagappa]

20 minutes ago, GeneralMayhem said:

Is lunar magic just rune magic but from lunar empire cults

Yes, most of it is just that, except that it is tied to the Lunar cycle so that casting can be limited by the phase of the Red Moon (e.g. only 1 pt spells available on Dying/Dark Moon days). 

26 minutes ago, GeneralMayhem said:

or is it 4th kind of magic that is yet to be implemented in RQG?

Except, the Red Goddess has the ability to manipulate spirit magic spells in a manner somewhat similar to sorcery.  This is what is typically called Lunar magic.

27 minutes ago, GeneralMayhem said:

Is converting magic from older editions a hard task? Is current magic system similar to the one back then, or has it changed drastically?

Not particularly.  The conversion guide in the back of RQG p.435-7. 

Spirit magic works pretty much the same (and with a few exceptions the same set of spells).

Rune magic works a bit different though the spells are largely the same.  You used to sacrifice POW to get Rune spells.  You still do that, but now you get Rune points and can renew those - and you can apply them to any of the common Rune spells or the special ones you know.  This makes Rune magic more available and more interesting to use.  Casting is also a bit different as it now uses a relevant Rune for the % to cast.

Sorcery has had more modifications.

33 minutes ago, GeneralMayhem said:

Same question as number 2 But for cults from older editions.

Some slight variations in cults over the years, but you can use most pretty readily.  The main thing to adjust is sacrificing for Rune spells (getting Rune points as noted above) and using your Runes to cast with.

 

[soltakss]

6 hours ago, GeneralMayhem said:

Hi, first i want to clarify that have never played any older editions of runequest, and my knowledge of lore is based on 3 corebooks (I do not yet have either glorantha source book or guide to glorantha) and king of dragon pass.

Don't worry, we've got your back. A lot of us have seen various older editions.

6 hours ago, GeneralMayhem said:

Is lunar magic just rune magic but from lunar empire cults or is it 4th kind of magic that is yet to be implemented in RQG?

Lunar Magic, as such, has three general forms in the RQ2/RQ3 supplements:

Rune Magic, as granted by the Seven Mothers, Etyries and various other Lunar deities. This works in the same way as any other Rune Magic, except that cults tied to the Moon rune can only cast certain spells on certain days and the strength and effect of the spell varies depending on the phase of the moon. Inside the Lunar Empire, the Red Moon is always full in RQ2/3, giving a boost to all Lunar Rune Magic, but that is changed in HeroQuest to being at Half Moon. I would keep it at Full Moon, to make Lunars scary and gross within the Glowline.

Initiates of the Red Goddess, in RQ3, could manipulate Spirit Magic in a similar way to how sorcerers manipulated sorcery. so, a Lunar Magician could take Bladesharp 4 and boost it to become a Bladesharp 10, or could give a Disruption spell a longer range, or make Protection last longer. It was OK, it made a big difference for low-level campaigns but not a great deal of difference for high-level campaigns.

Initiates of Lunar cults have access to the Young Elementals. This means that they can summon small Elementals from all the Elements except Air/Storm. This is something that can be very useful, as most cults in RQ2/3 have access to one type of Elemental at best. As they also have access to Lunes, they can get 5 types of Elementals, 6 with the Blue Moon Selenes.

6 hours ago, GeneralMayhem said:

Is converting magic from older editions a hard task?

On the one hand, no, it is very simple.

You need to give NPCs a Rune Pool and ignore the mentions of shield 4 and so on. I would count up the Rune spells, excluding Common Magic, and give that as a Rune Pool, or just make up a number.

Some spells in RQ2 were Common magic, but became Cult Speical magic in RQ3. shield is the most obvious example and Players of Yelmalian PCs still complain to this day. You have to be careful about taking some NPCs from RQ2, as they might have a lot more Common Magic spells than they would have in RQG.

On the other hand, it is problematic.

Rune spells in RQG are rune-based, so need to be cast using a Rune. NPCs in RQ2/3 have no Rune skills, so in theory cannot cast Rune Magic. So, you have to give them Runes at between 80-100%.

RQ2/3 NPCs did not have a Rune Pool and a lot of them had a lot of magic. Having a Rune Pool restricted to CHA means that they could only have 21 Rune spells, which seems a lot, but many things from Runemasters or Dorastor, for example, have more. I would keep the spells and just say that they have a special power, or something.

A lot of spells from RQ2/3 have not been written up for RQG. That is OK, as you can use the spells as written in RQ2/3 without any real difficulties.

6 hours ago, GeneralMayhem said:

Is current magic system similar to the one back then, or has it changed drastically?

Spirit Magic is essentially the same, but is limited by CHA not INT.

Rune Magic is essentially the same, but uses Runes to cast, rather than having a 100% cast chance, is limited to CHA in points and uses a Rune Pool. Also, stackable spells are slightly different, you do not need to learn Shield 4, for example, in RQG you learn Shield and cast it with as many Rune Points as you want.

Sorcery is substantially different. You can use RQ3 sorcery, but you might need to adapt it.

6 hours ago, GeneralMayhem said:

Same question as number 2 But for cults from older editions.

You can use cults from RQ2/3 in RQG without any problems.

Sometimes the spells granted as common Magic are no longer available in RQG, but that is easy to handle. Some of the spells from RQ2/3 are not available yet in RQG, so just use the RQ2/3 versions.

The main problem you might have is that RQ2/3 cults are much richer than RQG cults, so are described with histories, mythology, SubCults and extra spells. Hopefully, the RQG Gods and Goddesses of Glorantha will have a similar amount of richness, but the RQG Rulebook cults don't. You may find that cults in RQ2/3 are different from those in HQG, which could cause you problems.

 

Edited August 14, 2020 by soltakss

[Scotty]

8 hours ago, GeneralMayhem said:

Hi, first i want to clarify that have never played any older editions of runequest, and my knowledge of lore is based on 3 corebooks (I do not yet have either glorantha source book or guide to glorantha) and king of dragon pass.

Those are plenty!

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1. Is lunar magic just rune magic but from lunar empire cults or is it 4th kind of magic that is yet to be implemented in RQG?

4th type. It will appear in the upcoming god's book. It's only available to initiates of the Red Goddess. Unless you've been very busy in your games' it's unlikely that any in your group will be potential candidates:

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A potential initiate into the secrets of the Red Goddess must be Illuminated. They must also be a priest or lord of a Lunar cult.

 

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1. Is converting magic from older editions a hard task?

It depends which edition. As currently only RQ2 is available and RQG is based heavily on it, the conversion section in the core rules is all you need.

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1. Is current magic system similar to the one back then, or has it changed drastically?

RQ2 yes, except using Rune Magic now requires a rune affinity roll and RQ2 didn't have sorcery. 

RQ3 yes, except using Rune Magic now requires a rune affinity roll. RQ3 sorcery is based on a different system, but easily replaceable.

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1. Same question as number 2 But for cults from older editions.

RQ2 - They are often identical.

RQ3 - slightly different with ranks no longer in use (like acolytes).

Overall if you buy any RQ2 adventures - RuneQuest Classic from our site, you should have little problem converting them.

Have a look at the sample pages for Cults of Prax & Terror, you can see enough to give you an idea:

https://www.chaosium.com/cults-of-prax-pdf/

https://www.chaosium.com/cults-of-terror-pdf/

Edited August 14, 2020 by Scotty

[Austin]

8 hours ago, GeneralMayhem said:

Is converting magic from older editions a hard task?

Depends on how much you care about mechanical/mathematical gubbins. I converted statblocks from "The Temple at Feroda" to RQG, and there was more fiddling required than the conversion guide or Chaosium's marketing suggests. If you'd like to see the conversion, search the forum for "Feroda" and you should be able to dig up the thread and the file. I converted from the version of the adventure in the Glorantha Classics Pavis & Big Rubble PDF.

Soltakss's notes on Rune magic are good. I might include the common spells when calculating the Rune point pool, or estimate total POW sacrificed on special spells, but I'm a tinkerer and don't like to be satisfied with what I'm told.

The most notable change for converting old adventures IMO is the change from using INT to CHA, for how many spirit magic (battle magic) spells can be stored. This in particular shows up as problematic with foes like broo and tusk riders who, in RQG, have inherently low CHA.

That said, if you don't care about the math you could play old adventures without trouble. And in addition, I don't think you should care about the math. It's probably not worth it, especially if you're new to the game. Play those broo with oodles of spirit magic and CHA 4. Play that Rune Priest with way over their CHA in Rune points.

The primary problem I can imagine is player dissatisfaction that the antagonists of old adventures aren't restricted to the same rules that the players follow.

[GeneralMayhem]

Wow, I didn't expect to recive so many comprehensive answers! You guys are amazing!

[Nick Brooke]

Re: Lunar magic, note that Initiates of the Red Goddess (the only ones who get that weird hybrid of Spirit Magic and Sorcery) are very rare, even as NPCs. To get into that cult, you have to be a Rune priest and a Nysalor illuminate. So you're unlikely to be missing out if you wait for Cults of Glorantha.

My main advice on "conversions" is the same as Austin's ( @Crel ) - don't sweat the small stuff. Especially when it comes to NPC and monster stats from older RuneQuest Classic books. Your players don't get to audit your monsters' hit points. If something ever strikes you as odd / missing, just make a tweak on the fly and carry on. (Most obvious: Dodge skill didn't exist in RQ Classic; also, some stuff that was found everywhere back then has been sensibly deprecated, inc. Guilds and Blade Venom and Mindlink spells). You do not need full character sheets for NPCs, generated using the current edition of the rules and carefully balanced against your players' characters: RuneQuest isn't that kind of game.

Edited August 14, 2020 by Nick Brooke

[Austin]

6 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

You do not need full character sheets for NPCs, generated using the current edition of the rules and carefully balanced against your players' characters: RuneQuest isn't that kind of game.

For what it's worth I do actually enjoy playing RQ in that simulationist way. But when you're learning the game, that type of thinking isn't worth the brainpower. For me & my players the simulationist "fully compiled stats & details, finely tuned and organized for plausible opposition" is a large part of our fun. It can definitely be boiled down to be more simple, and that approach is okay too.