Allied Spirits - Disembodied

[Martin Dick]

So in RQ2, allied spirits could be disembodied, but in RQG is doesn't seem to be an option, all the examples are embodied. Does this mean that the standard spirit rules don't really apply? I've looked in the preview Gods and Goddesses of Glorantha and it doesn't provide anything more on allied spirits. I think there needs to be a bit more on how allied spirits start out and grow and what they can and can't do in the rules. They are a pretty important thing in the game and in Glorantha when you get to Rune levels, so they need a bit more explication IMO

 

[David Scott]

2 hours ago, Martin Dick said:

So in RQ2, allied spirits could be disembodied, but in RQG is doesn't seem to be an option, all the examples are embodied. Does this mean that the standard spirit rules don't really apply?

As they can't normally disembody, the standard spirit rules can't apply. However they can learn rune magic so a Waha allied spirit could learn Discorporate. A better way of looking at Allied spirits is to call them Cult or Divine Companions. The spirit part (which is how they arrive) often confuses later on.

2 hours ago, Martin Dick said:

I think there needs to be a bit more on how allied spirits start out and grow and what they can and can't do in the rules. They are a pretty important thing in the game and in Glorantha when you get to Rune levels, so they need a bit more explication IMO

Fill out the Allied Spirit section on the bottom of page 4 of your adventurer sheet, obviously objects and creatures will work differently. That should remind you to tick skills and POW for experience rolls and use magic, where appropriate. As an example, imagine  Nathem's shadow cat, becomes his Allied spirit. Add INT & CHA, then change the POW to a new one, it's an initiate already as it's an allied spirit, so spend some POW on rune magic and make a pool. You could argue it already has 1 point and a spell as it's already an initiate. Look at cult spirit magic and add what you think appropriate. What do you think you should know about or be clearer? - For me it's pretty clear. 

[Akhôrahil]

It's very good for Allied Spirits that they don't count as disembodied - this means that they get regular POW advances.

And as long as you also give them Experience Rolls (but perhaps not Occupational Experience?) and learning spells, it should be all good. I recommend a Passion or two to give them character.

[David Scott]

19 hours ago, Fred said:

Is an allied spirit (permanently) lost if the item is broken or the animal is killed?

It's the the rules on page 277, Allying a Spirit:

Quote

If an allied spirit is killed or destroyed, a new one may be obtained, but this is a matter for heroic deeds on the part of the priest.

---

19 hours ago, Fred said:

How do you allow players to interact with allied spirits and spirits to communicate with characters in your game (or in the rules, for that matter)?

It's the the rules on page 277, Allying a Spirit:

Quote

An allied spirit is in continual mind-to-mind communication with the priest.

---

19 hours ago, Fred said:

What do they “see and hear” of the world if they are in an item compared to when they are in an animal?

It's in the rules on page 277, Allying a Spirit:

Quote

The priest can see through the ally’s senses (and vice versa).

If they are an object then likely they have no senses other than their companion's. I say likely as I'd let jewelled eyes or a carved head work for a staff if appropriate. For a sword with eyes, I'd need convincing. An Issaries shop is likely to have an image of issaries, so I'd le that have senses. They are divine companions so use MGF, have fun.

19 hours ago, Fred said:

Do they speak specific languages?

No, but if you want to complicate things, they could speak the cult tongue, so a sword a humakti sword would speak stormspeech inside the head of its companion.

19 hours ago, Fred said:

Would you allow a creature with an allied spirit to speak aloud or just in the head to the person it is tied to?

As above, but for MGF I'd allow it in dire emergencies.

19 hours ago, Fred said:

In my mind it wouldn't be able to speak even if it theoretically could, only speak inside the head of people. But can a player talk to it any time it wishes? YGMV.

As above.

19 hours ago, Fred said:

(maybe I should have asked these under core rules questions but was curious how other GMS treat this also)

If you ask under the Core rules, I will say just the same:-) Please read the Allying a Spirit section in the rules on 177.

[David Scott]

21 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

(but perhaps not Occupational Experience?)

I'd not allow occupational experience, they are a Divine creature, it's not an occupation.

21 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

I recommend a Passion or two to give them character.

They are only inside their companion's head, what sort of passions would you suggest? IMO this is too much detail.

Edited August 16, 2020 by David Scott

[Akhôrahil]

10 hours ago, David Scott said:

They are only inside their companion's head, what sort of passions would you suggest? IMO this is too much detail.

Not sure what you mean here - an Alynx allied spirit is basically a person with body and agency. And a sword can be, say, bloodthirsty - just ask Túrin or Elric!

[jajagappa]

11 hours ago, David Scott said:

An Issaries shop is likely to have an image of issaries, so I'd le that have senses.

Like 88 Eyes in Gringle's Pawnshop, if I recall correctly.

[g33k]

10 hours ago, David Scott said:

I'd not allow occupational experience, they are a Divine creature, it's not an occupation...

One could argue that "being an Allied Spirit " is an "occupation" of (at least some) Divine creatures.  It's unclear to me that the RAW do actually imply this... but equally unclear that the RAW do not.  Certainly MGF allows it, if the players find it Fun!  

[g33k]

12 hours ago, David Scott said:

... They are only inside their companion's head, what sort of passions would you suggest? IMO this is too much detail.

It depends on whether you see the Allied Spirit as a character in their own right (and thus Passions) or an accessory of the PC with some spells and MPs and whatnot... a glorified magic-item.

[Lordabdul]

 

On 8/15/2020 at 4:13 AM, David Scott said:

As they can't normally disembody, the standard spirit rules can't apply. However they can learn rune magic so a Waha allied spirit could learn Discorporate.

The way I imagined it originally was that the Allied Spirit is bound (with Binding Enchantment) into the item or animal, which means that they can't disembody without being let out. I'm not sure if anybody can let out a bound spirit, or only the binder? If only the binder can let out a bound spirit, it would be important to know whether the priest does the binding, or whether it was done by divine will somehow (since it says that the spirit is "sent by the deity"). Either way, this lets me reason about allied spirits using existing rules, which is always nice.

On 8/15/2020 at 8:05 AM, Akhôrahil said:

It's very good for Allied Spirits that they don't count as disembodied - this means that they get regular POW advances.

Errr, what now?

 

 

[Akhôrahil]

17 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

Errr, what now?

Disembodied spirits have a fixed POW gain roll of 5%. Allied Spirits aren't disembodied, and hence get regular POW gain.

Further, since they're Initiates, this means that they can sacrifice for Rune Points and later regain the POW.

Edited August 17, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[David Scott]

1 hour ago, lordabdul said:

The way I imagined it originally was that the Allied Spirit is bound (with Binding Enchantment) into the item or animal, which means that they can't disembody without being let out. I'm not sure if anybody can let out a bound spirit, or only the binder? If only the binder can let out a bound spirit, it would be important to know whether the priest does the binding, or whether it was done by divine will somehow (since it says that the spirit is "sent by the deity"). Either way, this lets me reason about allied spirits using existing rules, which is always nice.

There's no binding mention in the Allying a Spirit section of binding, (my emphasis) :

Quote

Allied spirits are spirits sent by the deity to inhabit animals or sacred cult objects.

As usual you can do always do what you want with rules. IMO adding a whole binding ritual, that you would need to know, adds a layer of extra level of complexity. It would be simpler that the Allied Spirit can just leave when it wants as a spirit.

Overall, I find it easier to ignore most of the earlier RQ editions and stick with the new.

[Akhôrahil]

10 hours ago, g33k said:

One could argue that "being an Allied Spirit " is an "occupation" of (at least some) Divine creatures.  It's unclear to me that the RAW do actually imply this... but equally unclear that the RAW do not.  Certainly MGF allows it, if the players find it Fun!  

I'm pretty sure spirits don't usually get yearly occupational experience - most spirits are really old, and would have absurd skill values if it worked this way.

On the other hand, an Allied Spirit is there temporarily, and it makes some kind of sense that it could pick up new skills. (I really like the idea that your allied spirit has done this thing before for an earlier rune master, but in a different object/animal, so that it would have an unusual and possibly useless set of skills.)

On the third hand (thanks, Pocharngo!) maybe regular experience and perhaps training will handle this sufficiently.

Edited August 17, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[French Desperate WindChild]

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

On the third hand (thanks, Pocharngo!) maybe regular experience and perhaps training will handle this sufficiently.

the one I like.

I consider that passions could be good too :

god devotion

character loyalty

lust to ...

 

then in play, the loyalty to the character could be lower and lower, the spirit becoming less and less happy to "serve" the character.

In another story a spirit could decide to betrayed its god to protect the character  (who said illumination ?!) or stop its mission (your alynx will not give the alert in time because it is giving so many kisses to this eurmali priest, once transformed in a pretty cat.. )

I would say that, if you want to do it, you can play allied spirit as npc. In this case passion is a good tool to drive the case (what will win ? lust versus loyalty, devotion versus loyalty, lust versus devotion ...)

[David Scott]

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

most spirits are really old

Interested in why you think that.

I have the spirit world as as internal timeless region, much like the god worlds. Time is an external factor for discorporation, so the rules apply, but internally timeless. As Vasana says on page 367:

Quote

I was not sure of the passage of time, and could not say if a minute or an hour had passed.

The timeless for me means no improvements, except rare interaction with other spirits (for POW ticks).

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

On the other hand, an Allied Spirit is there temporarily, and it makes some kind of sense that it could pick up new skills. (I really like the idea that your allied spirit has done this thing before for an earlier rune master, but in a different object/animal, so that it would have an unusual and possibly useless set of skills.)

I can see an argument for cult skills like Lore (cult), but what would you have in mind for a sword? I also see allied spirits as parts of the god, or the recently dead (not in Humakt's case, as no one ever returns from Humakt's hall).

[Akhôrahil]

24 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

the one I like.

I consider that passions could be good too :

god devotion

character loyalty

lust to ...

"Love (Sausages)", to steal from one of the Duck posts.

[Akhôrahil]

8 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Interested in why you think that.

Well, spirits clearly aren't unchanging the way (in theory) the gods are. That 5% POW gain seems to indicate that they can improve, but also that it's very slow, as they're not active the the material world. I think it's cool to give them skill checks (perhaps also capped to 5% chance of success?) and that capped POW gain roll, but probably not occupational experience. 

I would imagine that most spirit cults are fairly old, just as an example. This means that at least in some regard, the spirit is old (it has been worshipped for that long, regardless of what its subjective time felt like).

That Sword spirit, what if it used to be a Raven spirit instead (assuming it works that way)? Then it might have a bunch of fun and useless skills. 🙂

[Lordabdul]

8 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Disembodied spirits have a fixed POW gain roll of 5%. Allied Spirits aren't disembodied, and hence get regular POW gain.

Oh, right, RQG Bestiary p164.

Quote

Further, since they're Initiates, this means that they can sacrifice for Rune Points and later regain the POW.

Good point.

7 hours ago, David Scott said:

There's no binding mention in the Allying a Spirit section of binding, (my emphasis) :

As usual you can do always do what you want with rules. IMO adding a whole binding ritual, that you would need to know, adds a layer of extra level of complexity. It would be simpler that the Allied Spirit can just leave when it wants as a spirit.

Yes, it's not mentioned, but I was saying I would use the Binding Enchantment rules to drive my decisions when it comes to what allied spirits can and can't do... otherwise, well... there is zero guidance for allied spirits, so how would I know? Using the Binding Enchantment rules is useful for me to figure out what the allied spirit can and can't do (can they talk? see? hear? etc.) mostly because, ahem, it's pretty much the only place in the rulebook that explains that kind of thing, so it's a natural chapter to lean upon. If allied spirits were meant to be handled differently then they should have come with specific rules (and here I mean mostly descriptive rules, not mechanics!).

Also note that I didn't mean for the PC to do the Binding Enchantment themselves. When I said "the priest does the binding" I meant an NPC priest (cult temple head priest or clan chieftain or whoever is appropriate in that case). Or, like I said, maybe the deity itself does the binding, since the text says it is "sent by the deity to inhabit animals or sacred cult objects". So it happens as part of the overall narration of the scene where the PC gains the allied spirit: it might include the deity appearing briefly with the spirit, either as an apparition or through the officiating NPC taking on the deity's liking, and then the deity/NPC-as-deity doing some ritual to bind the spirit into the animal or item.

How do you narrate getting an allied spirit in your games?

And how do allied spirits differ from bound spirits in your games? (again, in terms of what they can/can't do... not in terms of binding mechanics)

Quote

Overall, I find it easier to ignore most of the earlier RQ editions and stick with the new.

I'm new to RuneQuest and Glorantha as of RQG, so I've never played with any previous edition. I only occasionally have theoretical knowledge of those editions because I bought some of those books on eBay.

Edited August 17, 2020 by lordabdul

[French Desperate WindChild]

1 hour ago, lordabdul said:

Oh, right, RQG Bestiary p164.

Good point.

Yes, it's not mentioned, but I was saying I would use the Binding Enchantment rules to drive my decisions when it comes to what allied spirits can and can't do... otherwise, well... there is zero guidance for allied spirits, so how would I know? Using the Binding Enchantment rules is useful for me to figure out what the allied spirit can and can't do (can they talk? see? hear? etc.) mostly because, ahem, it's pretty much the only place in the rulebook that explains that kind of thing, so it's a natural chapter to lean upon. If allied spirits were meant to be handled differently then they should have come with specific rules (and here I mean mostly descriptive rules, not mechanics!).

Also note that I didn't mean for the PC to do the Binding Enchantment themselves. When I said "the priest does the binding" I meant an NPC priest (cult temple head priest or clan chieftain or whoever is appropriate in that case). Or, like I said, maybe the deity itself does the binding, since the text says it is "sent by the deity to inhabit animals or sacred cult objects". So it happens as part of the overall narration of the scene where the PC gains the allied spirit: it might include the deity appearing briefly with the spirit, either as an apparition or through the officiating NPC taking on the deity's liking, and then the deity/NPC-as-deity doing some ritual to bind the spirit into the animal or item.

How do you narrate getting an allied spirit in your games?

And how do allied spirits differ from bound spirits in your games? (again, in terms of what they can/can't do... not in terms of binding mechanics)

I'm new to RuneQuest and Glorantha as of RQG, so I've never played with any previous edition. I only occasionally have theoretical knowledge of those editions because I bought some of those books on eBay.

How I "play" allied spirit :

'in' an object : stormbringer (well last time I read was 30 yers ago...)

'in' an animal : a smart (free int in all ways, IRL, RQG magic) animal, worshiping, etc..

I don't consider it like "a spirit put it in an object to be used" but more as a pc's servant

In all case, that is no more a spirit but more an allied person (who can move or not, depending what it "is") when I want to apply RQG rules on. So they can discuss, they can use magic, they need to assist worship, but they cannot change loyalty by "command spirit" or things like that. Of course social spell (charisma, fear...) can be used against them

 

How I "give" the spirit :

'in' an object : after ceremony (dedicated to or just worshipping) when the pc touch the object she "sense" then "communicate" (they are linked, remember) with the spirit who introduce itself.

'in' an animal : after ceremony(.. or just..) or somewhere in the wild, the animal comes to the pc and start to talk to her (talk, with sound) then in mind speech