Sorcerors, runic inspiration and passions

[StephenMcG]

I have always (since RQ3) shied away from sorcery.  It has never sat comfortably in my brain.  I am determined that, in my current game, I am going to make it work. We are transition from a game that hybridised RQ2 and Heroquest into a hybrid of RQG and Heroquest.

I have a Lankhor Mhy and a Flintnail cultist in the group and so the opportunity and motivation are there.

My first question is the presentation of sorcerors as less emotional and not driven by their runes (like most rune cultists).

Does this mean they do not access passions to give them augments, or seek to gain runic inspiration, or does it mean they simply log more cerebral passions and the runic inspiration is less driven by the "emotion" of the rune and more an inspiration of the logical elegance in utilising a rune in this way?

Obviously the LM character will be easier than the Flintnail as LM guidance exists in the book right now, there is nothing Flintnail (I plan to see what inspiration I can take from Ian Thompson's "Hidden Measure" stuff) but I would welcome any insights, hints and tips that folk might be kind enough to share.

 

Stephen

[jajagappa]

5 minutes ago, StephenMcG said:

My first question is the presentation of sorcerors as less emotional and not driven by their runes (like most rune cultists).

Sorcery is a skill of logic, so emotion while attempting to concentrate and cast is probably not overly useful.

6 minutes ago, StephenMcG said:

Does this mean they do not access passions to give them augments, or seek to gain runic inspiration

No.

Remember that the use of Runes in sorcery has no formal connection to the Runes that make up your characters.  Maybe the character has a high Air Rune rating.  Might mean they are prone to violent outbursts against the hated Rival sorcerer (or rival clan, or whoever), or that they are rather fickle like the winds.  But can still focus their mind to cast sorcery (perhaps think computer programmers here, and the wide range of personalities that become programmers). 

9 minutes ago, StephenMcG said:

there is nothing Flintnail (I plan to see what inspiration I can take from Ian Thompson's "Hidden Measure" stuff) but I would welcome any insights, hints and tips that folk might be kind enough to share.

Look in the RQ Bestiary under the Mostali, and think of their spells from the standpoint of sorcery.  Substitute sorcery techniques for dwarf techniques, and you should be in reasonable shape.

[Shiningbrow]

5 hours ago, jajagappa said:

perhaps think computer programmers here, and the wide range of personalities that become programmers). 

Or...

Meteorologists, who study the wind and how weather is formed, barometric pressure, cloud formation, storms, typhoons and cyclones... Air Rune stuff.

And the geologist, who understands the rocks and soils and how they got there... for the Earth Rune.

And all manner of government, and politics for the Chaos Rune...

 

Understanding how things work and fit together isn't the same as getting really excited about it.

[davecake]

I think it's OK to have Runes aid sorcery casting. I rationalise it as representing a level of understanding beyond what they may have learnt formally - noticing small details, some intuitive sense that helps them avoid subtle mistakes, simply finding certain powers easier to channel. Even in highly intellectual areas, people find certain things easier or more pleasant to concentrate on. All the areas like meteorology vs geology might rationally be as difficult as each other - but different fields appeal to people for different reasons, and I think being truly enthusiastic or in tune with a particular area of study.

In the end, Runic inspiration makes very little difference to how good someone is at something day to day, I don't think it's a mechanic we need to justify in a simulationist way - but It's also an important narrative mechanic that makes Rune values meaningful. I think they need to be meaningful even more for sorcerous characters who don't use Rune Magic, not make it an almost vestigial mechanic. 

If you want a Gloranthan magic justification, though, for Runes sometimes helping - the Xeotam dialogues tells us that a lineage connection to the deities can make magic more powerful, and we know that Rune percentages can be related to lineage. That's enough of a theory to me to justify it as a mechanic (with a fair bit of handwaving, lineage can be interpreted more symbolically than literally if need be, etc). 

And as for Passions? Eh, motivation matters, and can help you focus and avoid distractions. Again, it works well for the narrative, and the simulationist aspects can be justified if you want. I know that intellectual tasks, like writing or studying, are still helped by being strongly motivated. 

[davecake]

6 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Look in the RQ Bestiary under the Mostali, and think of their spells from the standpoint of sorcery.  Substitute sorcery techniques for dwarf techniques, and you should be in reasonable shape.

Agreed. I think the Flintnail cult are definitely heterodox in their beliefs and magic, and don't observe Mostali Caste distinctions rigorously, and also mix it with human sorcery - in addition to being Openhandist and Individualist. Their Secrets of Stone grimoire is mostly Rock Dwarf magic (and Flintnail was probably a Rock dwarf), but seems to include some Tin Dwarf magic - dealing with Jolanti. I think most of their non-Mostali sorcery (and what little Rune Magic some of them use) is via their connection to the Pavis cult. 

I don't think the Flintnail cult know all the Jolanti magic, and can't create Jolanti from scratch. Part of the Jolanti ritual requires a Tin caste Diamondwarf to cast secret sorcery spells on a mass of rock - and I don't think the Flintnail cult have ever included a Tin Caste Diamondwarf, or know the spells (I think of this as basically 'wakening' the stone, or bringing it to life from dead stone). But that's just the first stage - then you carve it to add features (which is normally done by Rock dwarfs anyway), and then there are spells to control and strengthen it (which I think the Flintnail cult do know and use). They can't create Jolanti - but they do have access to a bunch of them that they captured after defeating Thog the giant in 875, and they seem fully capable of controlling them, which should be Tin Dwarf magic. This seems to involve some violation of caste boundaries - though nothing too outrageous for Individualist Dwarfs that already are open to violating them, given Tin and Rock dwarfs normally work closely together to create Jolanti. 

And the Flintnail cult (and Flintnail himself) shared this knowledge with Pavis (a clear Openhandist heretic act) and this allowed them to collaborate on creating the Pavis cult Master of the Faceless King grimoire, which uses the power of the Faceless Statue for a wide range of effects. 

Of course, all of this could get retconned when the new Pavis book comes out, but I sure hope it isn't - the Pavis:GTA reimagining of the Pavis and Flintnail cults was very cool and evocative IMO. 

As far as rules go, I'd basically let Flintnail cultists have access to all Rock Dwarf spells (there are a few in the Bestiary, and will be a few more in the Gods book), and probably any Tin Dwarf ones too. But they have access to few Jolanti, and are unlikely to be letting them out for adventuring purposes anyway. Then I'd let any Flintnail cultists also join Pavis, and learn any likely sorcery that way. Which gives them the bonus of having a little access to Rune magic as well - which is far more useful to player characters than most sorcery, and definitely than almost all Rock Dwarf magic (which is most only useful for building). 

[French Desperate WindChild]

I would allow sorcerer to use rune (his own runes) to inspire any action non sorcerer characters can do with the same rune. The question for me is " can a sorcerer use rune to inspire sorcery spell cast ? "

My first answer would say : no emotional "hot temper / change temper" runes can inspire sorcery stuff, as emotions disturb logic.

Darkness (cold) and Fire (pure), yes, they can inspire. Water (capricious, mutable) and Storm (unpredictable), no they can't. Earth i don't know. Moon ? yes only if your sorcery is subject of moon cycle

Stasis, Harmony, Truth, Man, yes. Their opposite, no. Death and Fertility... I don't know

 

But it is just a first thought, I can easily convinced by a full "no" or a "full" yes or something else. I only need logical (huhu..) argument

[David Scott]

Given there are spells that specifically block the use of passions when in effect (Logical Clarity, Logician), I would suggest allowing them to use runes & passions as normal.

[davecake]

2 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Darkness (cold) and Fire (pure), yes, they can inspire. Water (capricious, mutable) and Storm (unpredictable), no they can't. Earth i don't know. Moon ? yes only if your sorcery is subject of moon cycle

I would avoid this kind of reasoning. It makes for messy and inconsistent asymmmetry of game design, that is confusing and relies on everyone agreeing to the same intuitive understanding of the elements. And the logic is shaky - if Water is intrinsically capricious and mutable, surely a more sensitive and mutable state of mind will be more appropriate for casting Water magic? If Storm is unpredictable, then surely you need to be in a more responsive state of mind? etc. 

 

[Jape_Vicho]

Rune affinities are like if Galen's theory of humors was actually correct. The sorcerers understand that everything that exists, material or not, is formed by runes, and that runes influence what things are. A rock is made of Stasis and Earth, the same as a man is made of, well, Man, and a lot of other runes in lesser amount, Air for breathing and speaking, Moon for his mind, Water for his blood, etc. And if one of those elements are present in a greater amount than the average, it influences the "nature" (ie behavior) of the person; a woman with a lot of Sky rune "rating" will be pure and stern, as that's what the Sky is, if she has a prevalence of Illusion, she'll most likely be a liar and a trickster.

The relationship of the sorcerers with this would probably be to understand which runes are more present in one's body and use them to their benefit, they would not try to suppress the runes but embrace them and use them, especially lankhorings, maybe some weird malkioni sect does suppress them, but it's too far from Dragon Pass to bother us. Ofc Stasis will be much preferred but if you are a sorcerer chances are you have a high Stasis anyway, Truth may be favored by lankhorings too but not necessarily by other orders. And Law too but that rune does not really appear in RQG so there's no need to think about it. 

This is all a theory ofc, Jeff even posted some weeks ago about Godlearner texts that spoke about bacteria and I'm sure some of them even thought about something similar to atoms and molecules but I think those theories have probably been swept from Glorantha after their empire's destruction. 

Edited February 15, 2021 by Jape_Vicho