Anyone want a new ritual magic system?

[sdavies2720]

Over the break I got some time to work again on the Ritual Magic system for my world. Rather than necropost on an old topic (I first talked about this months ago at http://basicroleplaying.com/forum/basic-roleplaying/1224-ritual-magic-urrules.html ), I thought I'd start a new post.

I'll probably post some thoughts for feedback and review -- the document is hobbling its way toward a reviewable draft -- but before doing that I thought I'd quickly ask: Is anyone looking for a ritual magic system? If so, what are you looking for?

Steve

[sdavies2720]

And to answer my own question (risking narcissism): I want a ritual magic system that explains or at least illuminates some of the underpinings of the magic of the world. I want something that will explain, for example, why the evil mage is summoning a demon, and why he's doing it here.

And I want those rules to be playable. I've found that when you have to work through some of the nitty gritty bits of how the system works, suddenly there are a lot of interesting ripple effects: The mage cannot summon the demon until he's gotten control of a specific power spot. Depending on when he casts the spell, he will need one or more herbs for associations. He needs a power source to get things started, and sacrifices are easiest but he can use his staff if all else fails. He cannot control the demon but can protect himself from it, etc.

So my interest is in something more likely to play out in the background, but with some power for session play. One of the reasons that I like BRP is the characters who pursue one set of powers are still useful and playable in sessions.

Anyone else?

Steve

[GianniVacca]

Is anyone looking for a ritual magic system?

I am!

For Tiān Xià -- see the related thread: http://basicroleplaying.com/forum/basic-roleplaying/1671-rituals.html

[Charles Green]

The thing about rituals is that they take a lot of time to perform. My big question is whether or not this is reflected at the table. If one character is a mage, and is performing a ritual to, say, summon a demon, how much game-time will this take, and what are the rest of the characters doing while this happens?

Also, adding a lot of detail may add to the verisimilitude of the ritual, but will that add any significant amount of fun to the game? If summoning a demon takes a long time, and the player has to do a lot of groundwork beforehand (obtaining sacrifices, securing a place a power, etc.), it has been my experience that most players won't bother-it's simply too much work for the benefit involved. Mundane solutions are easier to think up, and often easier to perform.

If this is something that only happens between sessions, you may as well not bother with any rules-work; simply declare the ritual a success and go from there.

However, if this will happen at the table, here's what I'd do:

1. Skip directly to the end of the ritual itself, which is often the most dramatic part. Handwave the other requirements by assuming it has already been taken care of (unless doing the ritual is the point of a whole scenario, which leads me to the second point).

2. Make sure everyone at the table has a part to play in the ritual, otherwise the whole thing becomes a big spotlight for the mage and no one else. The part may be as simple as "protect me if the demon breaks its binding", or as elaborate as "chant this phrase without stopping" (i.e. make a skill check.)

I'm not trying to be contrary. I've given this a lot of thought, and have seem how it breaks down at my table.

If you're looking for research material, Magic of the Young Kingdoms for Mongoose Elric has a discussion of this very topic, as it pertains to summoning rituals, the problems of using them in play, and how to get around them. Not that it's the best way to go forward, but it might spawn some ideas.

Edited November 29, 2009 by Charles Green
confusing my own work

[sdavies2720]

I'm not trying to be contrary. I've given this a lot of thought, and have seem how it breaks down at my table.

Thanks, that's exactly the type of feedback I'm looking for, actually

I was going to (and frankly will anyway) put out a document for review, but it's a perennial 'back burner' project, and I thought I'd try to elicit others thoughts while I'm working on it.

Thanks again!

Steve

[sdavies2720]

I am!

For Tiān Xià -- see the related thread: http://basicroleplaying.com/forum/basic-roleplaying/1671-rituals.html

I was reading that thread, and felt it wasn't quite where I wanted to go with my magic system. But, that disconnect was part of what caused me to stop and ask what everyone wants--rather than make something completely idiosyncratic, maybe I can put something that both interests me and many other people.

But it's probably easier to put a strawmodel out and get feedback...

So, here's my thought. I recognize that this doesn't perfectly fit into the pre-defined magic category of 'ritual magic.' But neither does it match the previous Rune Magic designation, so I'm open to alternate terminology. UrMagic doesn't resonate, and Meta Magic is too Superheroism/modern for my taste.

My core idea is:

• Runes are the core source of creative energy for magic. In addition to Power, they also provide creative effects.
  
  
• Mages gain access to the Runes by traveling to a power spot for a specific rune and binding the rune. This gives them access to a little of its power, makes them a little more susceptible to its influence, and possibly marks them.
  
  
• Mages can invoke the Rune to get raw power spells. These can do things, for instance tapping the Fire Rune brings Fire Damage, but also other Effects as well. But, this raw use is pretty quick and immediately useful in-game.
  
  
• To gain control over the power and effects, the mage can apply magical skill to create a spell. These are initially slow and more costly, but with successful casting (including out-of-game) they can be condensed (lower cost and faster).
  
  
• Because the crafted spells take more power, the mage needs to seek out additional Runes and power spots in order to advance in his craft, which in turn opens him up to additional meddling by world powers.
  

So I guess it's really a Rune Magic system, but tapping the Runes directly will only get the mage so far. Pretty quickly, they will have to add a ritual element to refine their results. And, if the magical effects to be accessed are well-enough defined, there is no real reason that Runes need to be the ultimate source. You could as easily have ancestor spirits be the source, as long as the ritual elements balance well to generate effects.

My thought is the rituals aren't necessarily long, but that longer rituals increase casting chances and lead to longer spell effects. So characters who are interested in just blasting damage can do it relatively quickly, while healers and protectors might focus on a few complex spells to get them faster to cast.

But, Charles has good points. Maybe most players don't care about this stuff when you come down to it. For most people, this may be more of a distraction or annoyance than an enhancement to the core game.

Edited November 29, 2009 by sdavies2720
Clarify that Runes are necessary part

[p_clapham]

There would be some specific things I'd like to see in a Ritual Magic Monograph.

First I'd like either a customizable system, or a book containing multiple versions of ritual magic. In fact the best of both worlds would be a base system and a series of ritual magic traditions created through the rules.

Second it would allow for a set of rules that could be used in Fantasy, Ancient, Modern and other genres. As well as allowing for cross cultural systems of ritual magic, such as the Lodges and Voodoo systems from Gurps Voodoo.

Thirdly such a set of base rules would provide a sense of balance and continuity rules wise. The spells in Call of Cthulhu often times seem fairly random in their effects and power levels. I'd like a set of rules that made sense mechanically across the board. If the GM wanted to change things to address the power or mana level of the campaign, it would be nice for it to be as easy as possible.

[rpgstarwizard]

The question is how "realistic" do you want to get? Rituals take time, for one thing, so there can't be interruption. Real magic by Bonewits is good book on how to "think" about magic.

Think about the mythology of magic. One , there are places of magic, Two, a person of magic ability will create a place to do their magic.

Three, This place will be secure, so even their ritual fails, they have a place to fall back to.

Most systems can get too complicated. Gurps created authentic thaumaturgy. to get ideas that are pretty good, especially for gaming.

[sdavies2720]

The question is how "realistic" do you want to get? Rituals take time, for one thing, so there can't be interruption. Real magic by Bonewits is good book on how to "think" about magic.

Think about the mythology of magic. One , there are places of magic, Two, a person of magic ability will create a place to do their magic.

Three, This place will be secure, so even their ritual fails, they have a place to fall back to.

Most systems can get too complicated. Gurps created authentic thaumaturgy. to get ideas that are pretty good, especially for gaming.

I got a copy of Authentic Thaumaturgy when it first came out (published by Chaosium IIRC) and was excited by it. The problem is it (and this is true of most of the other 'realistic' systems) kind of point the way to create magical spells, then stop and wave their arms saying you need to work out how the magic works. I think that can work with a narrative game, but to me it's not consistent with BRP's more crunchy style.

I think that one starting point for a magic system is a set of magical effects and levels/costs, along with potential source(s) of those effects.

So, for instance, one effect could be "Damage(Fire)" with that effect coming from a source of the Fire Rune, and a cost of one Power Point per point of damage. So if the mage is to produce fire damage in his target, somehow he needs to incorporate the Fire Rune in his spell.

By the time you list all the effects, costs, and sources, along with how you access the source and how you combine effects, that's already pretty complex. Can it be any less complex? Is it already too complex to be interesting/useful?

[Agentorange]

I think by their very nature rituals are going to be complex. Nobody expects them to be as easy or quick as sparking up a Fireblade spell or whatever. So a certain level of complexity , be that casting time, weird ingredients, having to make a ritual magic skill roll ( maybe more than one ) goes with the territory.

[Charles Green]

I think by their very nature rituals are going to be complex. Nobody expects them to be as easy or quick as sparking up a Fireblade spell or whatever. So a certain level of complexity , be that casting time, weird ingredients, having to make a ritual magic skill roll ( maybe more than one ) goes with the territory.

Yes, but is this fun? And, more to the point, is it fun for everyone at the table, GM included?

[Agentorange]

Yes, but is this fun? And, more to the point, is it fun for everyone at the table, GM included?

Fun ? What is this fun ?

We're not here to have fun. We're here to nod meaningfully about the works of Joseph Campbell, and via a series of narrative based externalised shamanic experiences reveal to ourselves hidden truths about our lives and how we engage in the hero's path in our everyday actions.

Hang on, thats Herowars/Heroquest isn't it ? Sorry.....

You're quite right of course. Fun is the name of the game, and anything too complex, whilst fun to read, may not translate very well into actual gaming. As with all things I suppose it's about striking a balance. I do think there is room for slightly more complex magic in BRP.

One of the things I liked about RQ3 was the addition of the Ritual magic rules. I think they worked for several reasons. Firstly they added a bit more depth to the game, gave a hint of the magic behind the magic as it were. Secondly they were magics that implied long term progress and character development. Your fledgeling character wasn't going to be interested in an Armouring enchantment ( unless he could pay for one to be cast on him or his gear ) But a character with a bit of money and POW and some improved magical skills would look on one as an investment that could save their bacon in a gaming situation. Which brings me neatly to the third thing about them: all the rituals be they enchantments, ceremony or summoning had an impact ( either long or short term ) on actual gamesplay, people could see advantages to using them.

So I think a certain amount of complexity is ok as long as people can see in game benefits at the end of it.

EDIT. I do actually own several books by Joseph Campbell namely The Masks of God series, interesting stuff as it goes.

Edited November 30, 2009 by Agentorange

[kaddawang]

Yes, but is this fun? And, more to the point, is it fun for everyone at the table, GM included?

I think that is the point of ritualistic magic - it requires an effort apart from snapping one's fingers.

BRP as it stands supports ritualistic magic enough - let the mages work their spells through Ritual-rolls and outlandish ceremonies.

A simple Flame-spell might require building a metaphysical prison for a salamander-spirit(requiring a "Construct"-ritual, and possibly some outlandish materials and components), summoning the elemental(requiring a "Summoning"-ritual) and either luring it(with roleplaying), or trapping it(with cold hard rules). All with suitable fluff.

The resulting spell(rune, staff, crystal, etc.) could be a one-shot mini-nuke, or could be good for several castings. Something one would have to work out when laying down the rules for the game and setting.

BRP supports this just fine as is. You just have to treat the book as what it is; a toolbox.

Look at Ars Magica, Kult, Pendragon, Mage(and probably lots of other games that I can't remember or don't know) for inspiration.

Now if anyone actually sat down and cranked out an awesome, detailed, micromanaging system for something like this, I'd like it a lot. But I don't think I actually need it:)

[SDLeary]

Yes, but is this fun? And, more to the point, is it fun for everyone at the table, GM included?

The Ritual itself? Probably not unless the other players had a part to play in the enactment. The prep for the Ritual? Thats another story.

Rituals generally require components of some type. An example would be the correct type of wine and the correct flatbread wafers. Does the magician have all the stuff that they need to enact the ritual? Do they have the jawbone of a murderer (yes, I've been watching Supernatural)? Do they have edelweiss? The feather of an eagle, or something of the targets if this is a ritual targeting someone/something?

The ritual itself might not be fun for everyone, but the prep certainly could be a few sessions of more general adventuring.

Rituals can be easy to implement. Brainstorming now...

Enchanting: Enchanting costs POW rather than PP. The cost to enchant an item with a spell effect is n+2 POW; if the enchantment is performed when the item is created, you get a savings, the cost becoming n+1. The enchanted item still needs "juice" when used, costing the user of the item n PP at the time. If the Magician wants the item to not cost PP at the time of use, then n x2 POW must be expended at the time of enchantment. The POW needed for the enchantment may be gained either by sacrifice or by the cooperation of others (they need not be magicians). The Enchanting Ritual takes an amount of time equal to the POW expended in hours.

Summoning: This takes an hour rather than a combat round. If you know the true name of the entity, then it takes one combat round for each point of POW the entity has.

Thats what I got for now. I've actually been thinking about this for a campaign that I'm getting ready to run. A Shaman for example would use the Pacting rules from Corum and be mainly a summoner and healer.

SDLeary

[GianniVacca]

I've given this a lot of thought, and have seen how it breaks down at my table.

You seem to have focused on PCs. I was actually thinking both PCs and NPCs.

1. PCs -- the quest for the 'missing ingredient' can spawn a whole adventure
   
2. NPCs -- on the contrary, trying to disrupt a lengthy ritual by an evil sorcerer could be an adventure in itself
   

[rust]

Is anyone looking for a ritual magic system? If so, what are you looking for?

My only settings where magic does exist are the Call of Cthulhu settings, so

I am not that much interested in magic systems.

On the other hand, the magic as it is currently used in the official material

for Call of Cthulhu does not fit my ideas of what cthulhoid magic should be

like: A kind of rather complicated ritual magic that requires a lot of research

to aquire the necessary knowledge, a lot of usually strange substances and

"props", a lot of people to take part at least in all powerful rituals, and a lot

of time - at least hours, if not days or weeks.

What I would therefore be interested in would be a system to develop such

rituals of different power levels within a common system, plus some ideas to

handle such rituals in the design of a plot and at the table.

So, not descriptions of specific rituals (except as examples), but a toolbox

to design the rituals needed for my setting, campaign and adventures.

Unfortunately such a system would probably make a good subject for an ar-

ticle or a series of articles, but it would hardly be enough to fill an entire mo-

nograph.

[Nightshade]

I think by their very nature rituals are going to be complex. Nobody expects them to be as easy or quick as sparking up a Fireblade spell or whatever. So a certain level of complexity , be that casting time, weird ingredients, having to make a ritual magic skill roll ( maybe more than one ) goes with the territory.

I don't think that changes Charles point that once it gets more than a little complex, you have to have pretty dramatic benefits to it before people will bother.

[rust]

I don't think that changes Charles point that once it gets more than a little complex, you have to have pretty dramatic benefits to it before people will bother.

I think it would depend on the "magic level" of the setting. If there are other

ways to cast magic, even with less powerful results, the players are likely

to ignore the more powerful, but more complicated ritual magic much of the

time. However, if ritual magic is the only way to cast magic, it can become

a lot more interesting for the players.

[Charles Green]

You seem to have focused on PCs. I was actually thinking both PCs and NPCs.

1. PCs -- the quest for the 'missing ingredient' can spawn a whole adventure
   
2. NPCs -- on the contrary, trying to disrupt a lengthy ritual by an evil sorcerer could be an adventure in itself
   

In both of these cases, the actual ritual itself it not something that needs specific rule attention to make it part of the game.

In the first case, a missing ingredient, as you say, can just as easily be determined by ahead of time, and the PCs can be sent off for it.

In the second case, details about what details are involved in the ritual are needless, as the PCs presence is usually enough to disrupt any evil rituals.

And what's wrong with focusing on the PCs? The game is their story, and I as the GM are there to facilitate that story. I don't need a lot of specific details about rituals in any real way. Simply saying, "The cult leader has a big knife, and he's chanting, you've got maybe rounds to stop him" is enough detail for me.

Adding more details, or having my NPCs adhere to a ritual system, does not make the game any more fun for me or my players.

[p_clapham]

Ghost of Albion, and Buffy's The Magic Box, both from Eden studios. The magic/ spell creation rules are one of better I've seen. A balance between ease of use and complexity.

Now if anyone actually sat down and cranked out an awesome, detailed, micromanaging system for something like this, I'd like it a lot. But I don't think I actually need it:)

[rust]

In the second case, details about what details are involved in the ritual are needless, as the PCs presence is usually enough to disrupt any evil rituals.

Pardon me, but this would be a rather lame approach to the subject.

Imagine instead a scenario where the characters know what someone wants

to achieve with a ritual, but have no idea what this ritual is like, when and

where it will be cast, and how many of the required ingredients have already

been collected and prepared for the ritual.

To prevent the success of the ritual, they first have to research the ritual

themselves, with all of the potential information sources in "enemy hands".

Once they have determined what exactly is needed for this ritual, they can

attempt to find some of the required ingredients and protect them from their

"enemy", or they can try to follow his route in collecting the ingredients to

learn more about the intended location and date of the ritual, and so on.

They could even try to research and "organize" a "counter-ritual", perhaps

disguised as some kind of avantgardistic "art event" ...

Their final aim would be to prevent the ritual from happening without having

to be present (e.g. as human sacrifices ...).

With such a scenario the ritual and its details could become the focus of an

entire short campaign.

Edited December 1, 2009 by rust

[Charles Green]

Snip awesome scenario idea.

What you've listed would indeed make a decent scenario or short campaign, provided it was written in such a way that the act of preparing the performing the counter-ritual was set up in such a way that it was filled with tension, conflict and all the other stuff good stories are made out of.

It wouldn't need a full-blown ritual magic system, since both the initial ritual and the counter-ritual would be out of the player's hands, since the rituals would have to be designed by the scenario author so that they would work against each other.

A case could be made for allowing the players the option of designing the counter-ritual themselves. In this instance, I think having rules support for the GM to make on-the-fly ritual scenes fun and interesting would be more helpful than rules for determining what you can do with a ritual.

[rust]

Yes, I agree. In my view ritual magic would be a good subject for an article

or a series of articles, perhaps in Uncounted Worlds, but less so for an entire

monograph.

What comes to my mind as an example is a series of articles about demonolo-

gy in Runequest that was published in White Dwarf, ages ago. In my view it

contained all that really was necessary and useful to introduce this kind of

magic into any Runequest campaign.

[Nightshade]

I think it would depend on the "magic level" of the setting. If there are other

ways to cast magic, even with less powerful results, the players are likely

to ignore the more powerful, but more complicated ritual magic much of the

time. However, if ritual magic is the only way to cast magic, it can become

a lot more interesting for the players.

I don't think that matters, really; it just changes the question of what "power" means. Even if its the only healing magic in the game, players are not going to go to too much work for something that heals a D6 hit points; they'll either work around needing to do it, or find some other method depending. It'll sometimes be valuable for things that are qualitatively impossible in other ways, but at that point the effect is powerful in any meaningful way.

[rpgstarwizard]

I see where you are you are reduced to rolling dies, and seeing if you make all the rolls correctly, if you "miss a spot", and make a fumble. There are ways and depends on what the players and GM want to explore.

Edited December 1, 2009 by rpgstarwizard
error in quoting