Which bound spirits can provide MPs

[Bill the barbarian]

Back when dinosaurs ruled the earth (and played Rock n Roll on MTV) we had Intellect Spirits and Power Spirits in RQ. Both could be bound into enchantments and could be used by our murder-hoboes, er heroes. The Intellect Spirits could house spells freeing up much needed Free INT and the Power Spirits, well, the Power Spirits bless their lil souls could be harvested for their MPs. 

Fast forward to the 21st century when Keef, Mic and the boys are about the only dinosaurs still hanging in there with their electronic instruments and MTV is long gone but RQ is back! With dinosaurs of its own! Alas.Intellect and Power spirits did not make the transition. So where do murde....I mean heroes go for their free MPs? Obviously commanded and controlled unbound spirits, and bound spirits in crystals but what of healing spirits, disease spirits. demons, dare I say... elementals.?

Whatcha think?

Cheers

Edited April 24, 2021 by Bill the barbarian

[Joerg]

TL-DR: There are spirits that offer MP to the holder of a binding as their nature, and there are those that don't.

 

I think that different natures of spirits allow them to be accessed.

An allied spirit allows partaking of its abilities and energy, it is the highest level of cooperation you can get out of a spirit without coercion.

I used to see binding a spirit as a form of coercion, but spirits actually have a desire to exist inside the world of the living and are willing to accept some forms of restraint to partake in the direct exposure to life this side of the veil. There are spirits that do that naturally - usually advanced ones, like nymphs, spirit animals, or genii loci (or combinations thereof), but those are outside of this discussion. There are spirits that can cross the veil temporarily, but there are also those who cannot on their own devices. These spirits can be invited or summoned across, though, and will inhabit a vessel (such as a crystal, a binding, or a beast prepared to house them) for the enjoyment of being in the Surface World. (At least, according to how HQ1 described animist charms.) If that prolonged presence comes with the price of offering a service, that's a price these entities are willing to pay, or paying the price is part of their nature. And for some types of spirits, that price is giving the holder of their vessel use of the magic (points) they accumulated.

 

Back in times of RQ3 I thought that the mechanical descriptions of those spirits were straight from the grey lands of Blandistan (and the spirit plane used to be described as that). I proposed there to be an ecology of spirits, a vast majority of autotrophs ("plant spirits") which turn the ambient life force or flow of energy from the Source (the  magical spring of energies beyond the sun and the outer sky dome) and turn that into their own stored magic, not in the shape of starch, but as MP. Those were what I regarded as run-of-the-mill POW spirits. These spirits would also allow themselves to be harvested by other forms in the ecology - I called those bunny spirits. Such spirits might be able to benefit from the stream of energy coming from the Source, but would also be able to harvest the "plant spirits" for MP at a rate beyond their own ability of regenerating. Finally, I postulated another layer of spirits preying on these harvesting "bunny spirits", "wolf spirits" which would hunt these bunny spirits down and devour their spiritual nutrition, leaving them for Godtime-like rebirth and re-acquisition of autotroph-accumulated magic. These predator spirits would understand themselves as part of a food chain, and could be hunted down for consumption, too - for significant amounts of magic gained. They might be "milked" or "bled" by someone they accepted as masters.

But then there are spirits which have a regenerative source of magic (aka RQ's POW stat) and a pool of available magic (MP) only for the purpose of maintaining their existence. If they have a personality or will (not necessary), they might donate some of their available magic to a receptable for available magic (such as a dead crystal or a MP matrix). When bound, they might even be coerced to do so. But I wouldn't allow such spirits to gift their available magic to the holder of a binding without having undergone a mutual alliance. Which might be a pact, or a divine assignment.

 

I also think that the spirits presented in the Bestiary show the lowest set of possible abilities a spirit of that type can have. There might be spirits that have an intellect, passions, possibly can manifest a temporary physical body even if their class type (disease, healing, passion, "spell", magic) doesn't have those. Ancestral spirits are a case of "spell" spirits with additional features when employed to learn Spirit Magic spells, IMO.

 

Sandy Petersen told about encounters in his Pamaltelan campaign with spirit entities that had no POW, just MP. They didn't have much of a will or personality, either. According to Sandy, they had hung around since Creation, simply existing. They would allow themselves to be harvested, ceasing to exist when used up in full.

I don't think that Sandy's players thought about using them as a (free, possibly unlimited) storage device for MP from another source, by donating MP to them when MP were full or nearly full. Maybe that wouldn't work.

Just as maybe, there might be spirits that have a somewhat coral-like life cycle and which spawn such POW-less bundles of MP to drift away, settle down elsewhere, and then give birth to a new spirit of the kind that spawned them, the POW being dormant until the new environment was adjusted.

 

Do spirits procreate? Or rather, do they procreate any more since Time rules the world?

Can spirits grow? (One way they might grow is from receiving worship or donations of POW like for wyters. That may be a temporary growth only.)

There are known predatory magics that can harm and possibly permanently destroy spirits.

Or do spirits require an origin in an embodied life form, and some sort of ascendance after the end of the physical life of said life form?

 

On the other hand, new life in the surface world requires a spirit (or soul) imprint from Otherworld features like Yothbedta's Stream of Life or Ty Kora Tek's Waiting Place. Possibly quite a few of these if we follow the "multiple souls" concept of the Orlanthi.

[soltakss]

In the time before Dinosaurs, we had Bound Spirits in RQ2. We could use their INT to store spells and their Temporary POW, i.e. Magic Points, to cast spells. 

RQG just reflects that, but using CHA for spells and Magic points instead of Temporary POW.

You could use Intellect Spirits and POW Spirits if you want, but I don't really see the point.

[Shiningbrow]

7 minutes ago, soltakss said:

You could use Intellect Spirits and POW Spirits if you want, but I don't really see the point.

POW spirits, maybe no point.

But Intellect spirits allow you to choose what spells are stored (and, easily changed) - rather than hoping the spirit you summon has the combination of spells you want.

TBH, I'm surprised the Spell Storing crystal is only 1D4 CHA worth...

(actually, I'm surprised most crystals are XDY, and not XDY+Z, to give a better minimum)

[Bill the barbarian]

2 hours ago, soltakss said:

You could use Intellect Spirits and POW Spirits if you want, but I don't really see the point.

 

I am not sure I understand, one gains expanded POW surely that has a point or am I missing your point... granted Intellect spirits are useless for storing spells... one would need Charismatic spirits in RQ G fo’shizzle, but added POW, that is better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick. Still the main thrust of my question remains unanswered and is being given the BRP Central sidestep. The point of the question... What can one bind or leave free but still harvest MPs from?

But back on point

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

But then there are spirits which have a regenerative source of magic (aka RQ's POW stat) and a pool of available magic (MP) only for the purpose of maintaining their existence. If they have a personality or will (not necessary), they might donate some of their available magic to a receptable for available magic (such as a dead crystal or a MP matrix). When bound, they might even be coerced to do so. But I wouldn't allow such spirits to gift their available magic to the holder of a binding without having undergone a mutual alliance. Which might be a pact, or a divine assignment.

 

Right, when checking matrices that create enchantments, I see the ability to house spells, and the ability to store MPs from the creator or holder of the enchanted item and of course the ability to house spirits in many guises of corporation or discorporation into binding enchantments exists or that dual named Spirit Trapping/POW Storing Crystals also exist to hold the fort... er spirit. I guess, making a deal or commanding simple minded spirits (bunny spirits) makes sense. But of all the spirits that might be trapped or commanded are there limitations to the species (beyond common sense, good story sense or the power to deal with the consequences of a loose and angry spirit) that one can milk MPs from? Elementals... demons...bunny spirits..?

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

Do spirits procreate? Or rather, do they procreate any more since Time rules the world?

Can spirits grow? (One way they might grow is from receiving worship or donations of POW like for wyters. That may be a temporary growth only.)

There are known predatory magics that can harm and possibly permanently destroy spirits.

Or do spirits require an origin in an embodied life form, and some sort of ascendance after the end of the physical life of said life form?

or... do spirits exist as being required as part of the great compromise? They were there at the beginning of time and still exist within time?

Edited April 24, 2021 by Bill the barbarian

[Joerg]

4 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Right, when checking matrices that create enchantments, I see the ability to house spells, and the ability to store MPs from the creator or holder of the enchanted item and of course the ability to house spirits in many guises of corporation or discorporation into binding enchantments exists

Yes, an enchanted item can have a number of quite different enchantments linked together. A spirit binding enchantment and a magic storage enchantment in the same item are almost a standard. You can task the spirit with keeping the storage filled for its own use or for use of the holder, directing it to refill it only after having regenerated all or at least most of its MP.

4 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

that dual named Spirit Trapping/POW Storing Crystals also exist to hold the fort... er spirit.

Not necessary, IMO. Dead crystals don't need attunement, everybody can pick them up and use them. They can either hold a spirit (of however many MP it may have) or hold a limited amount of MP. That means that crystals where the finder rolled low are likely to be used to house spirits, and crystals with a decent capacity are more likely to be used as a MP storage.

It only takes a command by the holder of the crystal housing the spirit to make it fill an adjacent (possibly touching) storage crystal with MP. Looking at Scotty's recent answer that you need to use some control or command spell only once to be able to interact with a spirit in a housing, it doesn't even look like you have to use a commanding spell if the spirit can do so from within the housing. If the spirit has to leave, then it can be commanded to leave the housing, do the job, and return, for a minimal investment of magic.

 

4 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

I guess, making a deal or commanding simple minded spirits (bunny spirits) makes sense. But of all the spirits that might be trapped or commanded are their limitations to the species (beyond common sense, good story sense or the power to deal with the consequences of a loose and angry spirit) that one can milk MPs from? Elementals... demons...bunny spirits..?

If you come with the Zzabur mentality, it is "yield your MP, or I'll tap you."

 

4 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

or... are spirits required as part of the great compromise?

Thed is a spirit (or at least she was one under the strict "three worlds dogma") and she is a (regrettable) part of the Compromise, so I guess that means yes, spirits are required as pat of the great compromise. ("extensive compromise" might be a better term?)

[soltakss]

21 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

23 hours ago, soltakss said:

You could use Intellect Spirits and POW Spirits if you want, but I don't really see the point.

 

I am not sure I understand, one gains expanded POW surely that has a point or am I missing your point

Binding a spirit in RQG gives you both POW for Magic Points and you can store spells.

Why summon a POW Spirit that does not allow spells to be stored?

21 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

What can one bind or leave free but still harvest MPs from?

Bound Spirits, Allied Spirits, your Fetch.

For anything else, you need a way to suck out Magic Points from them and store in Magic Point matrices or POIW storage Crystals.

[PhilHibbs]

46 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Binding a spirit in RQG gives you both POW for Magic Points and you can store spells.

Why summon a POW Spirit that does not allow spells to be stored?

I think the suggestion is that some people might want to go with the RQ3 rules for different spirits, in which case the answer would be "because it's the only option".

[Bill the barbarian]

3 hours ago, soltakss said:

Binding a spirit in RQG gives you both POW for Magic Points and you can store spells.

Why summon a POW Spirit that does not allow spells to be stored?

Ah good soltakss, I did not say one should use Power spirits in my original post... any fact I said one cannot use Power spirits as they are no longer a part of RQG. I would rather not talk about why Power spirits are not useful but about what entities are...

 

On 4/23/2021 at 11:01 PM, Bill the barbarian said:

Fast forward to the 21st century when Keef, Mic and the boys are about the only dinosaurs still hanging in there with their electronic instruments and MTV is long gone but RQ is back! With dinosaurs of its own! Alas.Intellect and Power spirits did not make the transition. So where do murde....I mean heroes go for their free MPs? Obviously commanded and controlled unbound spirits, and bound spirits in crystals but what of healing spirits, disease spirits. demons, dare I say... elementals.?

Whatcha think?

so howsabout the items I asked about? Healing spirits, disease spirits, demons, elementals... you know, critters that have many uses above and beyond being POW batteries but if one can use their MPs as well I just might just say... BONUS!

Edited April 25, 2021 by Bill the barbarian

[Bill the barbarian]

2 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

I think the suggestion is that some people might want to go with the RQ3 rules for different spirits, in which case the answer would be "because it's the only option".

No, I am getting used to the idea that RQ3 and RQG are very different beasts, I was simply looking for an understanding of some of those differences. I came across someone binding an elemental in an enchantment and a healing spirit in yet another to have them ready for use and all the other benefits one has with a bound entity, but on top of that... to also be able to use its MPs for fuelling spells. The last part got me, being the old RQ3 playing grognard that I am (can you do that, really?) which is the point of this topic. Two quotes make me think that it can be done, but do not specifically say that definitively....

 

Quote

Those in physical contact with a binding enchantment can mentally communicate with an entity bound inside (if there are no conditions to the contrary) and can command the entity to use its abilities.

Quote

Some entities have knowledge or abilities which the wielder can use while it is bound within an item. However, many entities are not very effective when so trapped and must be released to be useful (e.g., wraiths, healing spirits, elementals, etc.). 

So do those abilities which the wielder can use while the entity is bound include using its MPs? These would be to fuel spells as our no longer existent Power spirts used to do? Again, I refer to the last three entities mentioned (wraiths, healing spirits, elementals) but it can include many, many others. 

Cheers

Edited April 25, 2021 by Bill the barbarian

[jajagappa]

39 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

I said one cannot use Power spirits as they are no longer a part of RQG

I think you are assuming something based on lack of inclusion rather than any specific statement.

As noted in the Bestiary p.165 (emphasis mine): "The gamemaster should create unique or tailored spirits by giving them one or more powers. Everything imaginable exists in the Spirit World..."

 

[Bill the barbarian]

1 minute ago, jajagappa said:

I think you are assuming something based on lack of inclusion rather than any specific statement.

 

I am not actually assuming anything. Rather than coming in as an expert in fact, I am using this topic in the spirit I created it, "what can one do?” Sorry for any misunderstanding. No,  I am simply exploring the possibilities. 

So cool, you postulate that Power spirits are not gone but could exist if wished? I do not wish to have them to be honest, simple generic spirits seem to fill the bill quite nicely, but it is good to be reminded that the thinking in RQG is open minded.

[PhilHibbs]

30 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

As noted in the Bestiary p.165 (emphasis mine): "The gamemaster should create unique or tailored spirits by giving them one or more powers. Everything imaginable exists in the Spirit World..."

Lets consider the possible powers, and how many each spirit should have.

• Spirit Spell Storage
• MP Access
• Healing
• Cause Disease
• Cure Disease (maybe same as Healing)
• Madness or other passion
• Elemental powers
• Communication
• Knowledge
• ...etcetera

It seems to me that the first two powers are pretty common. If a spirit doesn't have any of the other powers, then they probably have one or both of these. Many spirits have both, enough of them that they are the most common spirit to come across.

Some spirits might have only one of these powers. Maybe it can store more spells (high CHA) but does not give MP access, or vice versa. If you currently have a spirit in your crystal that has space for 5 spirit spells and 11 MP, would you give it up for one that can store 12 spirit spells but does not grant MP access? Or that has 20 MP but can't store spells? Might be worth it.

I would also say that having any of the other powers than the first two makes it less likely that they will have either of the first two powers. So if you come across a healing spirit that can also store spells for you, great, but generally they can't.

[Bill the barbarian]

Thanks Phil, this is exactly what I was thinking of. Twixt Joerg’s in depth look at the BTS myths in his posts and this one which looks at the nuts and bolts (dare I say, munkinerry) of binding spirits I think we are finally on track to where I meant to be. I guess my usual jocularity in the first post occluded this thinking, but yes, I was hoping for an exploration into and answers about whether one could draw on MPs from other sources than the generic bound spirit which seems to fulfill the purposes of Power and Intellect spirits in RQ3

In fact moving away from generic (the gray lands of Blandistan Joerg mentions) in the bound spirits would be nice... No worries. This is a job for Gamemaster Man!

 

51 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

I would also say that having any of the other powers than the first two makes it less likely that they will have either of the first two powers. So if you come across a healing spirit that can also store spells for you, great, but generally they can't.

This has long been my thinking, but would you be able to cite a rule stating this or are you applying common sense?

 

On 4/24/2021 at 7:18 AM, Joerg said:

t only takes a command by the holder of the crystal housing the spirit to make it fill an adjacent (possibly touching) storage crystal with MP. Looking at Scotty's recent answer that you need to use some control or command spell only once to be able to interact with a spirit in a housing, it doesn't even look like you have to use a commanding spell if the spirit can do so from within the housing. If the spirit has to leave, then it can be commanded to leave the housing, do the job, and return, for a minimal investment of magic

Alright. mentioning Joerg above reminds me, I might have missed a few items from his brief post.

Agreed Joerg, the only time one need cast a controlling spell is to get the wee beasty into an enchantment. As long as the entity is in a non-living binding, it can use any abilities a trapped entity without senses of its own can do for its binder. It can also be release and it will perform one task for its former binder and then is gone—unless, the binder casts a controlling spell which will let the controller give many orders, the last of which must be given before the spell’s end and should be to tell the entity to return to the binding.

 

On 4/24/2021 at 7:18 AM, Joerg said:

If you come with the Zzabur mentality, it is "yield your MP, or I'll tap you."

 

Ooo, icky! That’s evil!

 

51 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

• Spirit Spell Storage
• MP Access

As said up post, and by you as well in your post, these seem to be the common bound sprits. Now the remaining, if one were to be able to utilize any of these other critters you mention for their MPs as well, I think we might be  beginning to enter the realms of some cool Munchkinerrey...

 

51 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

I would also say that having any of the other powers than the first two makes it less likely that they will have either of the first two powers. So if you come across a healing spirit that can also store spells for you, great, but generally they can't.

...but I fear you are correct, and this have been my long standing policy. 

 

On 4/24/2021 at 12:32 AM, Joerg said:

I used to see binding a spirit as a form of coercion, but spirits actually have a desire to exist inside the world of the living and are willing to accept some forms of restraint to partake in the direct exposure to life this side of the veil.
<snip>
They might be "milked" or "bled" by someone they accepted as masters.

A quick last thought on Joerg’s post...agreed, unless the spirit has enough intelligence and/or will to desire a different interaction. 

 

On 4/24/2021 at 12:32 AM, Joerg said:

I also think that the spirits presented in the Bestiary show the lowest set of possible abilities a spirit of that type can have. There might be spirits that have an intellect, passions, possibly can manifest a temporary physical body even if their class type (disease, healing, passion, "spell", magic) doesn't have those. Ancestral spirits are a case of "spell" spirits with additional features when employed to learn Spirit Magic spells, IMO.

 

Yes, agreed again, I think this dovetails with Phil's thinking from the  above post. 

 

On 4/24/2021 at 12:32 AM, Joerg said:

But then there are spirits which have a regenerative source of magic (aka RQ's POW stat) and a pool of available magic (MP) only for the purpose of maintaining their existence. If they have a personality or will (not necessary), they might donate some of their available magic to a receptable for available magic (such as a dead crystal or a MP matrix). When bound, they might even be coerced to do so. But I wouldn't allow such spirits to gift their available magic to the holder of a binding without having undergone a mutual alliance. Which might be a pact, or a divine assignment.

 

and there you go, that covers my qualms from above.

 

On 4/24/2021 at 12:32 AM, Joerg said:

I also think that the spirits presented in the Bestiary show the lowest set of possible abilities a spirit of that type can have. There might be spirits that have an intellect, passions, possibly can manifest a temporary physical body even if their class type (disease, healing, passion, "spell", magic) doesn't have those. Ancestral spirits are a case of "spell" spirits with additional features when employed to learn Spirit Magic spells, IMO.

 

I would imagine something like a spirit of law that an LM might use. Perhaps little spirits that can only contain a little piece of thought... like a Jonstown Compendium (the old version of the JC from RQ classic—just snippets of lore on one idea rather that a whole splat of ideas)

 

On 4/24/2021 at 12:32 AM, Joerg said:

Just as maybe, there might be spirits that have a somewhat coral-like life cycle and which spawn such POW-less bundles of MP to drift away, settle down elsewhere, and then give birth to a new spirit of the kind that spawned them, the POW being dormant until the new environment was adjusted.

 

 

Cool but the is what I would expect fro M. Petersen. 

Well, I am glad I went back over that post, Joerg, to mine it for thoughts!

Edited April 25, 2021 by Bill the barbarian

[Joerg]

3 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Agreed Joerg, the only time one need cast a controlling spell is to get the wee beasty into an enchantment.

Actually, that appears to be the one time when you can cast a "Spirit Binding" spirit spell (p.265), apparently with a simple resistance roll POW vs. POW rather than the tedious "spirit combat to zero points" job of the Control (Entity) spell (p.258) when discorporated. And I wonder whether it must be the caster of the Control spell who takes down the spirit to zero MP, or whether several combatants can team up on a spirit to make it susceptible to a Control (Entity) spell. And good thing the spirit combatants usually need to be discorporate already, as a spirit fought down to zero MP leaves the Middle World and retreats across the veil into the Spirit World. Immediately?

I'd dealy love to see examples of play for this entire subject.

 

3 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

As long as the entity is in a non-living binding, it can use any abilities a trapped entity without senses of its own can do for its binder. It can also be release and it will perform one task for its former binder and then is gone—unless, the binder casts a controlling spell which will let the controller give many orders, the last of which must be given before the spell’s end and should be to tell the entity to return to the binding.

That's the way how Control Entity is used while not discorporated. With a spirit magic control spell, that task had better end inside of 2 minutes, too.

 

3 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Ooo, icky! That’s evil!

Zzabur mentality. Nuff said.

 

 

3 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Yes, agreed again, I think this dovetails with Phil's thinking from the  above post. 

Yes. @PhilHibbsprovided all the specialities normal RQG spirits have been shown to have so far.

The question still remains whether a bound Healing or Disease Spirit (for instance) can be milked for MP, or whether that is such a breach of the contract that the spirit attacks the user, or may attempt to flee, despite the Binding.

 

 

3 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Cool but the is what I would expect from M. Petersen. 

I cannot remember whether Sandy wrote this in the RQ Daily or whether this came up in personal conversation on some convention, but as I remember the story, these blobs of MP had hung around since the original era of Innocence, the Green Age.

I think this was one of the ways Sandy drove the point home that Pamaltela, for all its terrible conflicts between the Doraddi and the Artmali empires and the Six-Legged Empire, retained a modicum of Green Age innocence and wonder. This might resonate with the statement that Dinal, the easternmost part of the Errinoru jungle (and possibly really belonging to the VIthelan quarter of the world rather than the Pamaltelan one) managed not to notice the Greater Darkness. (Being part of Vithela might be an excuse why this forest did not even miss the sun during the Greater Darkness.)

[Bill the barbarian]

11 hours ago, Joerg said:

I'd dealy love to see examples of play for this entire subject.

 

Sure

 

11 hours ago, Joerg said:

That's the way how Control Entity is used while not discorporated. With a spirit magic control spell, that task had better end inside of 2 minutes, too.

 

Can’t tell if you mean I am wrong or agreeing, I am unsure. If you were disagreeing with my interpretation the following pages in RQ RiG page 249 will correspond to what I was saying, If I misunderstand feel free to set phasers on ingnore. I will check the spells to see if they disagree with those pages. 

 

11 hours ago, Joerg said:

The question still remains whether a bound Healing or Disease Spirit (for instance) can be milked for MP, or whether that is such a breach of the contract that the spirit attacks the user, or may attempt to flee, despite the Binding.

 

I believe (at the risk of speaking for him) that he says they cannot most of the time. But really we should wait to hear him state his reasoning.

 

Edited April 26, 2021 by Bill the barbarian

[Shiningbrow]

8 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Lets consider the possible powers, and how many each spirit should have.

• Spirit Spell Storage
• MP Access
• Healing
• Cause Disease
• Cure Disease (maybe same as Healing)
• Madness or other passion
• Elemental powers
• Communication
• Knowledge
• ...etcetera

It seems to me that the first two powers are pretty common. If a spirit doesn't have any of the other powers, then they probably have one or both of these. Many spirits have both, enough of them that they are the most common spirit to come across.

Some spirits might have only one of these powers. Maybe it can store more spells (high CHA) but does not give MP access, or vice versa. If you currently have a spirit in your crystal that has space for 5 spirit spells and 11 MP, would you give it up for one that can store 12 spirit spells but does not grant MP access? Or that has 20 MP but can't store spells? Might be worth it.

I would also say that having any of the other powers than the first two makes it less likely that they will have either of the first two powers. So if you come across a healing spirit that can also store spells for you, great, but generally they can't.

I find it a bit interesting that you refer to the 2nd (and maybe 1st) as an ability.

I thought, spirits either had or didn't have, spells. But whether they're castable or not from the binding was inherent in the binding, not the spirit.

Similarly, I saw spirits as giving MPs as part of the power of the binding (Or crystal).

 

I do like the idea that spirits have knowledge. Say, sentient plant or animal spirits could have INTx5% in their appropriate lore, but specific to their species or location. Similarly, ancestors should also have such skills... All of which would count as a teacher for the purposes of learning from. (I'd also include location spirits - so that Sartar has spirits that would have Sartar lore and Customs... The land is magical! And sentient!!)

[PhilHibbs]

 

11 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

I find it a bit interesting that you refer to the 2nd (and maybe 1st) as an ability.

I thought, spirits either had or didn't have, spells. But whether they're castable or not from the binding was inherent in the binding, not the spirit.

Maybe that's the rule in RQG, but that hasn't always been the case. In RQ3 there were Magic Spirits that could cast spells themselves, but you couldn't access their INT to cast them yourself. So I should add this to the list:

• Cast spells on command

Edited April 26, 2021 by PhilHibbs

[Dragon]

On 4/23/2021 at 11:01 PM, Bill the barbarian said:

Obviously commanded and controlled unbound spirits, and bound spirits in crystals but what of healing spirits, disease spirits. demons, dare I say... elementals.?

Bill, is the statement on RQ:RPG page 366 not sufficient?

"Spirits may be bound into a magic crystal, or into a specially prepared object or animal as described in the Binding Enchantment section (page 249). The binder of a spirit
can use any spirit magic the spirit possesses and the magic points of the spirit to fuel spells." 

That last sentence is pretty concise. There are no caveats, no prohibitions. Sounds clearly like you can use the magic points of any bound spirit to fuel spells.
Now, you may not want to pull MPs from a healing spirit if you think you may need to use its healing powers later in the battle. But pull the MPs off that talosi all you want, but leave 1, that won't affect its ability to smash. Another example is a bound wraith, where if you might need to Control or Command it and send it against an enemy, the person who bound it probably wants it at max MP.

[Bill the barbarian]

1 hour ago, Dragon said:

Bill, is the statement on RQ:RPG page 366 not sufficient?

 

Obvioulsy not, but I believe all of us were looking at the binding rules on 249 (about a full page of text) and at the various spells which mention going to page 249 (the rune spells section says nothing at all) rather than page 366 in using a binding enchantment. 

In our defence it was not good enough for some of the heaviest hitters in the game: Jajagappa, Joerg, Philhibbs, soltakss. I like to think I know the rules as well. We all missed it. Spreading info over a 100 page or more for one effect did not help. Pages of info, no mention of this... 48 words and all alone and it nails it perfectly...Zounds!

Still, you beat some fine minds to the punch, consider yourself rewarded with a no-prize (just don’t get snarky about it kid)!

🙂

Edited April 26, 2021 by Bill the barbarian

[Shiningbrow]

1 hour ago, Dragon said:

Bill, is the statement on RQ:RPG page 366 not sufficient?

 

5 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Obvioulsy not, but I believe all of us were looking at the binding rules on 249 (about a full page of text) and at the various spells which mention going to page 249 (the rune spells section says nothing at all) rather than page 366 in using a binding enchantment. 

In our defence it was not good enough for some of the heaviest hitters in the game: Jajagappa, Joerg, Philhibbs, soltakss. I like to think I know the rules as well. We all missed it. Spreading info over a 100 page or more for one effect did not help.

Yeah... I recall having read that, but couldn't find it again!

100 pages apart isn't good.... (and not in the Bestiary either.

[Shiningbrow]

3 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

 

Maybe that's the rule in RQG, but that hasn't always been the case. In RQ3 there were Magic Spirits that could cast spells themselves, but you couldn't access their INT to cast them yourself. So I should add this to the list:

• Cast spells on command

Yes, I recall. I found it interesting to see RQ:G did away with POW spirits (although, I suppose not entirely)

[Bill the barbarian]

1 minute ago, Shiningbrow said:

100 pages apart isn't good.... (and not in the Bestiary either.

I like to think RQG rules are quite good, and very pretty. But very hard to find!

[PhilHibbs]

9 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

In our defence it was not good enough for some of the heaviest hitters in the game: Jajagappa, Joerg, Philhibbs, soltakss. I like to think I know the rules as well. We all missed it.

Thanks for the egoboo! But to be honest I had neither seen it nor missed it, I was replying entirely in the context of considering options for spirit binding rules, including inspiration from previous editions, which is what I thought you were driving at. If you want to have more crunch and detail in your spirit interactions, a menu of spirit abilities to pick from might be your bag.

I'm not a big fan of the very simple rule that we currently have, that all spirits can be bound and you can always get access to their spells.

I guess if you want a spirit to have a power that you don't want mortals to get, you make it something other than a spirit spell. We already have that with elementals and spirits that can possess. Spirit that can put people to sleep? Special ability, not the spell. But I'd rather not have to jump through that hurdle, to pull out that card when a player wants to take that ability, as that seems like and would be perceived as a cop-out.

[Bill the barbarian]

2 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Thanks for the egoboo!

Well, you are the mayor of Munchkin Town! Or at the very least the head of the The Lollipop Guild!

Can’t say exactly what it was I was driving at exactly myself, Phil. That is, the crunch of the actual rules was appreciated, thanks Dragon (who says ya can’t trust a dragon?) and the spec of course is a good chunk of the magic in the BRP fora. So thanks everyone. And well, like a box of chocolates ya just never know what you will get when asking a question so I just post and wait to see what chocolaty goodness I will get.