Full time training limit

[Squaredeal Sten]

I've been looking at the 2019 and 2020 topics on training, but would still like your opinion on this narrow question:  What should be the limit on number of skills an "adventurer" can train in at the same time?   "five" seems reasonable to me.

I saw Jeff's 1/20/2019 restatement of the (p.416 RQiG) general training rule , but that's in a context of the adventurer having to work for a living.

On 1/20/2019 at 9:48 AM, Jeff said:

I will defer to individual GMs how to handle that in their campaigns. In my campaigns, the idea of "training full time" just isn't plausible. All characters have cult responsibilities, occupational roles, community obligations, etc. Even if you were living in a Humakt temple as some kind of devoted initiate, you need to eat, sleep, worship the god, pray and meditate more than persuade a Sword Lord to train you. In a Knowledge Temple, you are going to be copying scrolls, writing down records, and working as a scribe. And so on.

Once upon a time, Greg and I played around with breaking down the percentage of time a character can devote to any type of activity - working, cult responsibilities, family obligations, praying and meditation, dreaming, sex, whatever. It was an interesting exercise but waaaaaaay too much book-keeping for a game system. What is in RQG gets you to more or less the same result without the bookkeeping.

and I accept that the limits are really a GM's choice- and that simplicity is a virtue in rules -

But I am also aware of

(A) GMs and players who want to arrange a full-time training situation, whether by spending sudden riches or by giving someone what amounts to a scholarship-

(B) The volume of training at least one well known GM gave - in Six Seasons in Sartar, where new adults are getting 100L of training per season and that might be in common skills tat only cost 10L to train, or might be in rare skills.  I rationalized this as the clan really wanting the new adults to succeed in life, so they don't actually work seven day weeks of 12 hour days -

(C) The proposition that new Initiates (inexperienced adventurers)  are going to be educated in Cult Lore and Worship skills, in addition to any other cult skills, and that this happens in the five years from ages 16 to 21 to make an Experienced adventurer.  This is rarely gamed out but you still have to admit it happens in the abstract background.

(D) the proposition that someone might go to a Lhankor Mhy library and get what amounts to a bachelor's degree

 

After reading the discussion i am thinking of saying" you can train in at most 5 skills."

My rationale for why that's a ballpark number:

1) if you can get occupational and cult experience on four skills, and train in one, while working a full time job - that's five things you are learning during the time you are not adventuring.

2) If you can take off up to three of the eight weeks of a season and adventure -  and in the other five weeks you get that occupational and cult experience -

Then I'm looking at the ability to learn 5 things if you are not working a job.   And in terms of time alone  if adventuring more than three weeks  displaces training then we have to say that training takes no more than five weeks of spare time if you ARE working a full time job.  How much spare time per day or week does the individual have/? undefined.  But if they work 12 hours a day farming (which seems to have been a pre industrial RW reality) and sleep 8 hours then that's max 4 hours spare time for all activities including eating and dressing.  Say take half that to train?  So if they didn't work, that's about six training subjects worth of time freed up.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 1, 2021 by Squaredeal Sten
closed my quotaiton marks

[Bill the barbarian]

12 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

 

After reading the discussion i am thinking of saying" you can train in at most 5 skills.

My rationale for why that's a ballpark number:

12 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

2) If you can take off up to three of the eight weeks of a season and adventure -  and in the other five weeks you get that occupational and cult experience -

 

Agreed with the 5 ticked items, one of them may be a 00 or a non-tickakable skill. (as per occupation between adventures checks and training/research rules) Of course you will have no income, and you will have expenses and definite responsibilities. Keep up with those and have a GM with the same ideas I have and you should be okay.

Also If their is a high holy day or a seasonal holy day and you can succeed at a worship ceremony at at a sanctified site with a god talker or rune level you can get POW check as well.

And of course one adventure of no more than three weeks. 

That is all I would allow. But again your game will vary.

Edited July 1, 2021 by Bill the barbarian

[Akhôrahil]

I replaced training in the rules with the following:

1. If you take some time off from work, you can put one (or more, depending on how much) of your seasonal experience ticks into skills not in your cult/occupation.

2. If you have a decent or better teacher, you get a bonus to your skill check roll (there should be a teaching skill, but since there isn’t, just use the communication bonus).

[Rodney Dangerduck]

Five?  

"To have a chance at improving a skill though training, an adventurer must train with an instructor for an 
entire season, and can do little else."

"a skill" is singular.

RAW are incredibly restrictive on training, and it's interesting to see a highly respected author and GM just blow holes in them.

[Akhôrahil]

6 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Five?  

"To have a chance at improving a skill though training, an adventurer must train with an instructor for an 
entire season, and can do little else."

"a skill" is singular.

RAW are incredibly restrictive on training, and it's interesting to see a highly respected author and GM just blow holes in them.

The point is that this was quickly errata:ed into training instead being a side activity that you could perform apart from full-time work and part-time adventuring (and cult time), merely consuming your remaining free time, so the question in the OP is ”but what if I actually train full time rather than just in my free time?”

[Brootse]

Yeah, there are no rules yet about full time training, and they are needed in some campaigns. Eg. if the characters join a military unit and go through a training period, or if the characters are students in Nochet's Great Library, both of which are great sources for games. I've used slightly modified RQ3 rules for that kind of training.

Edited July 1, 2021 by Brootse

[Bill the barbarian]

4 hours ago, Brootse said:

Yeah, there are no rules yet about full time training, and they are needed in some campaigns. Eg. if the characters join a military unit and go through a training period, or if the characters are students in Nochet's Great Library, both of which are great sources for games. I've used slightly modified RQ3 rules for that kind of training.

And Brootse, I still suggest that if a reason to study (well reasons, I will admit) can be met (this will vary from table to table) and the resources are available, use a training period of at least 5 weeks in a season for 4 normal ticks and one for training or research (a box nor a positive base skill are not needed for non-cult/secret skills). Remember your POW... now this is almost rules as written for a home rule. This will depend on the tables playing style so I leave it a bit open ended. 

Let me expound a bit...

Simply have your occupation be that of student for that season. Now, I am not willing to remove responsibilities and expenses from the adventurers. You will still have to pay all taxes and tithes, you will  have to meet your normal expenses to maintain near a SoL (and I will say you HAVE to, no allowances) in fact I will say it cost a bit more, as trying to keep up with the Harmast's is difficult with an income and much more so without. A second reason for a greater expense, none can work the land as well as those within the community, this is a magic world remember, so both otherworldly and mundane reasons apply here. There are spirits of the land... that only the true steaders of the land will know... not too mention mundane knowledge no hireling could know that permit one to do the work of many hirelings with fewer steaders. Plus you will have to hire a boss at near the cost of yourself to keep the others in order. Bottom line, it will cost you more in numbers and lunars to achieve what you can achieve perfectly adequately. Make this difficult enough to get an adventurer out of it. And finally you may have to pay for researches, and you will have pay for training.

From here it becomes roll playing (if it has not already). You don’t want to break rules to give players everything there greedy hearts desire so... You put obstacles between them and their desires for the student /adventurer to solve. Now if taxes/tithes are all up, the Clan ring or chieftain will allow you to live on your stead. This is not automatic amongst Heortlings, but a ring or chieftain had better have a good reason to remove a scofflaw. More than likely you will have earned some displeasure at the very least from the powers that be. Payment will gain you full access to occupation rolls and perhaps better (or at lest not worse) rolls at Sacred Time. By tithing none can argue with your right to worship from a financial reason, anyway. (gaining you access to your POW tick). Your social standing is maintained (no loss to Rep).

 Now this is not meant to be arbitrary, and only the first paragraph is really the HR. The others are colour. I hope the obstacles I use here make sense from a Gloranthan sensibility and you are getting something the RAW do not allow, which should be good for a bit of a roleplaying adventure. Still season this ragout to suit your table and enjoy.

 

Edited July 1, 2021 by Bill the barbarian

[Brootse]

On 7/1/2021 at 9:19 PM, Bill the barbarian said:

And Brootse, I still suggest that if a reason to study (well reasons, I will admit) can be met (this will vary from table to table) and the resources are available, use a training period of at least 5 weeks in a season for 4 normal ticks and one for training or research (a box nor a positive base skill are not needed for non-cult/secret skills). Remember your POW... now this is almost rules as written for a home rule. This will depend on the tables playing style so I leave it a bit open ended. 

Let me expound a bit...

Simply have your occupation be that of student for that season. Now, I am not willing to remove responsibilities and expenses from the adventurers. You will still have to pay all taxes and tithes, you will  have to meet your normal expenses to maintain near a SoL (and I will say you HAVE to, no allowances) in fact I will say it cost a bit more, as trying to keep up with the Harmast's is difficult with an income and much more so without. A second reason for a greater expense, none can work the land as well as those within the community, this is a magic world remember, so both otherworldly and mundane reasons apply here. There are spirits of the land... that only the true steaders of the land will know... not too mention mundane knowledge no hireling could know that permit one to do the work of many hirelings with fewer steaders. Plus you will have to hire a boss at near the cost of yourself to keep the others in order. Bottom line, it will cost you more in numbers and lunars to achieve what you can achieve perfectly adequately. Make this difficult enough to get an adventurer out of it. And finally you may have to pay for researches, and you will have pay for training.

From here it becomes roll playing (if it has not already). You don’t want to break rules to give players everything there greedy hearts desire so... You put obstacles between them and their desires for the student /adventurer to solve. Now if taxes/tithes are all up, the Clan ring or chieftain will allow you to live on your stead. This is not automatic amongst Heortlings, but a ring or chieftain had better have a good reason to remove a scofflaw. More than likely you will have earned some displeasure at the very least from the powers that be. Payment will gain you full access to occupation rolls and perhaps better (or at lest not worse) rolls at Sacred Time. By tithing none can argue with your right to worship from a financial reason, anyway. (gaining you access to your POW tick). Your social standing is maintained (no loss to Rep).

 Now this is not meant to be arbitrary, and only the first paragraph is really the HR. The others are colour. I hope the obstacles I use here make sense from a Gloranthan sensibility and you are getting something the RAW do not allow, which should be good for a bit of a roleplaying adventure. Still season this ragout to suit your table and enjoy.

 

You misunderstood me. For normal RQG campaign where the characters are clannish Sartarite farmers and the like to whom adventuring is only a side gig, the current training rules work okayish. But if you are are running different kinds of scenarios, eg. soldiers in a training camp, or students in the Great Library of Nochet, the current training rules don't work.

[Bill the barbarian]

48 minutes ago, Brootse said:

You misunderstood me.

Oh, good lords and ladies... surely that would not be the first time I misunderstand anyone 🙂!

 

48 minutes ago, Brootse said:

For normal RQG campaign where the characters are clannish Sartarite farmers and the like to whom adventuring is only a side gig, the current training rules work okayish. But if you are are running different kinds of scenarios, eg. soldiers in a training camp, or students in the Great Library of Nochet, the current training rules don't work.

Misunderstanding or not, I still ask why one could not use the above rules for such situations as you mention.

An adventurer/student gains 4 skill experience ticks and one skill tick for research or training (for skills without a tick box). One will need no less then 5 weeks/season of study or some penalty will have to apply to gain one POW gain tick for any season with a High Holy Day that the adventurer succeeds with a worship roll (another tick) One adventure can be conducted (variable number of rolls, the adventure should be limited to... say, 3 weeks/season max?) So, at the end of a 4 season year (this amount of time is a suggestion, make it 5 seasons if you can justify it) would give 16 experience ticks and 4 research or training ticks. Plus a chance of a POW tick for an initiate with access to a rune level led worship ceremony at a sanctified site. Or up to four POW ticks for Rune levels that lead worship. (about 30 percentiles added to skills on average, give or take) for a 4 season year of study. Plus adventures....

Decide to use responsibilities upthread I mention, or not... YGWV
ETA and what if all that time is Training, well pay the trainer and uses training rules. 

Edited July 7, 2021 by Bill the barbarian

[Baron Wulfraed]

53 minutes ago, Brootse said:

 eg. soldiers in a training camp, or students in the Great Library of Nochet, the current training rules don't work.

For an organized troop of Warrior occupation (Noble's guards, mercenary company, etc.) a training camp probably counts as "normal occupation time". Done when the company is not currently occupied or in the off-season (presuming no one really wars during bad weather seasons). cf: Elizabeth Moon "The Deed of Paksenarrion"

[Shiningbrow]

But what if you're so focussed on training one particular thing, such that you're ignoring everything else (that would be ticked)?

So, instead of 4 occupation experience ticks, and one training roll, you remove the 4 occupation ticks and apply... How many to the one trained skill?

The LM initiate stuck in the Nochet library is a fairly good example. Sat down at their desk, day after day, going over scroll after scroll after scroll about ... One single topic only. (and those scrolls all get dumped in a huge pile on the desk, so no Library Use ticks!) Perhaps give some for Read (no Write :p).

 

(Note - Whining and Complaining are not RQ skills)

[Bill the barbarian]

1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

But what if you're so focussed on training one particular thing, such that you're ignoring everything else (that would be ticked)?

So, instead of 4 occupation experience ticks, and one training roll, you remove the 4 occupation ticks and apply... How many to the one trained skill?

 

Work with your GM and/or your table so that you have more minds that know your campaigns needs, compare what you want to achieve to what you will pay in (remember your responsibilities/debts/expenses/SoL/tithes/taxes/costs of research tools/costs of training* etc.). But me anyways, I would go to the maximum of 1 experience tick to 1 training/research roll, (this is a HR and one I am experimenting with now), what ever I come up with is unlikely to suit your table to a tee, and for that matter my table in every circumstance... flexibility/common sense will be good ) and there is a possible minimum of 4 experience ticks to 1 training/research roll. there's your outliers, what do you (and those you play with) think it should be? Ah, and another limiting thought comes to mind, would one be able to find 5 different professional trainers in any given season who would train you? Again, discuss with those you play with, and get a variety of opinions to work with. 

*If your rewards are as small as they should be in RQ G the cost of training should be prohibitive and should keep your wanting to trade one experience tick for one down training/Research tick to a dull roar... 5 professional skills would cost 450 lunars per season. Even common would cost, 150/season...OUCH! 

Looks a little easier (and cheaper) to just stay with my original thinking upthread. Just one training/research roll with all the other ticks of a student/adventurer. Hmm, well those 4 experience ticks for our s/a will have to cost something but it should only be a fraction of the following.

This is not a home rule I am currently using, but it is becoming close too good enough to be a HR for the future. 
 

 

Edited July 8, 2021 by Bill the barbarian

[French Desperate WindChild]

I use the occupation as a kind of training substitute :

• if you want to train martial activity, find a way (teacher, troop, ...) to "become" temporary warrior (occupation, not social position )
• If you want to train martial leadership activity, find a way (teacher, troop officer, ...) to "become" temporary noble (occupation, not social position)
• If you want to train/learn some knowledge, find a way (teacher, library, ...) to "become" temporary  scribe (occupation = student, not social position)
• If you want to study your religion, find a way (pilgrinage, temple, ...) to "become" temporary priest (occupation, not social position, not divine position ==> no bonus for pow, etc... only skill access)

I use the 5th slot to discover or learn a new skill ( base = 0) And when I say discover it doesn't mean you can do it alone, you may need or not some guidance.

That means you can learn 1 new skill maximum per season. And of course you can study and not understand/find/.. anything Apply rules dedicated to a specific part (ex create a sorcery spell) etc... when there is.

etc..

 

But a good point from some answers here: when you focus on a not working occupation (ex: you have a teacher for martial activity, you are not a mercenary/guard/ ..., you may lose status / income / ... etc

so you have to pay your standard of living, you have to pay your teacher, and you don't get 100% of your income).

In the same way, you want to train "mining" activities, when you are noble hero, etc.., you may lose CHA (it depends on a lot of factors of course)

And you can lose some advantage from your clan too, if the ring gave you some land to manage and you do nothing... well there are other candidates

Of course, it depends on where you come from : you are the son of a local noble who does everything for you , money is not your issue, management too, super nanny will do it for you.