Abilites, Stunts, Etc...

[Zenith Comics Presents...]

So I picked up Blood Tide (PDF) as one of my players is doing a sword bravo in the Albana campaign, and I love how Stunts are powered by PP.

Other than SuperWorld, what other BRP games have cool stuff like that power by PP?

I think having it be PP is just elegant and really capitalizes on something every character has.

Any and all suggestions/links are welcome.

BE HEROIC!

[Atgxtg]

I'm don't believe any other BRP game used Power Points in that way. Core BRP had an Option for Hero Points which helped in making rolls, and Mythras has something similar with how it handles special success, and MRQ has some sort of advanced maneuvers that can be learned, but they are all different than what Blood Tide does.

[Zenith Comics Presents...]

5 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

I'm don't believe any other BRP game used Power Points in that way. Core BRP had an Option for Hero Points which helped in making rolls, and Mythras has something similar with how it handles special success, and MRQ has some sort of advanced maneuvers that can be learned, but they are all different than what Blood Tide does.

That's sad news friend. I think using PP to power "Abilities" like that is just a level of wow that makes the game even better, and gives the non-magic people things they can do.

Guess I'll have to think up my own 🙂 

[lawrence.whitaker]

Mythras also has Mysticism which comes with a host of talents that are akin to the Heroic Abilities of old MRQ. Plus, if you pick up Mythras Imperative, we have a basic Powers system in there that gives abilities/powers that can easily be toned to different levels of game play (and are powered by PPs).

Luther Arkwright also has various traits and abilities that can easily be adapted to BRP too.

There's quite a lot available.

[Zenith Comics Presents...]

18 minutes ago, lawrence.whitaker said:

Mythras also has Mysticism which comes with a host of talents that are akin to the Heroic Abilities of old MRQ. Plus, if you pick up Mythras Imperative, we have a basic Powers system in there that gives abilities/powers that can easily be toned to different levels of game play (and are powered by PPs).

Luther Arkwright also has various traits and abilities that can easily be adapted to BRP too.

There's quite a lot available.

I feel awkward saying this but I can't read Mythras, your font choice isn't compatible with my eyesight and I get a headache every time I try to read more than a page or two. It is something I've had to deal with all my adult life sadly. I'll see if I can find something to assist, or get on the players to review it for me.

Who is Luther Arkwright and where can I find his stuff?

When you say there's quite a lot available, please tell me more! 🙂

BE HEROIC!

[lawrence.whitaker]

9 minutes ago, Zenith Comics Presents... said:

I feel awkward saying this but I can't read Mythras, your font choice isn't compatible with my eyesight and I get a headache every time I try to read more than a page or two. It is something I've had to deal with all my adult life sadly. I'll see if I can find something to assist, or get on the players to review it for me.

Who is Luther Arkwright and where can I find his stuff?

When you say there's quite a lot available, please tell me more! 🙂

BE HEROIC!

I'm sorry the font choice is proving problematic for you. It's called Baskerville and is a widely used Serif font, so it's not especially uncommon. If you use PDF, then you can of course increase the font size if needed.

Luther Arkwright is one of our game supplements and is based on the works of Bryan Talbot. It's a highly acclaimed graphic novel series involving dimension-hopping agents saving the multiverse. In the game, your characters are special in some way, with unique talents and abilities marking you out from the norm, and making you perfect for recruitment to the agency Arkwright also works for. The talents range from simple things like an Eidetic Memory through to full-on psionics, and the game includes systems for both psions and handling mental meltdown. You can find out more about Arkwright below:

The Design Mechanism

The Adventures of Luther Arkwright - Wikipedia

 

[Zenith Comics Presents...]

Thanks for the links.

Yeah I tried the PDF, sadly thin serif fonts are just brain burning for me, I know I am in a very small minority on that one.

I do have Mythras Imperative but on a quick scroll I didn't see any powers, what section are they in?

Thanks for taking the time. 🙂

BE HEROIC!

[Atgxtg]

1 hour ago, Zenith Comics Presents... said:

That's sad news friend. I think using PP to power "Abilities" like that is just a level of wow that makes the game even better, and gives the non-magic people things they can do.

I think it has it pros and cons. For one thing it separates the stunts from the skills that the stunts are based off of. For instance someone can have the Florentine Stunt without any skill with Florentine Style (Two Weapons) Fencing, or even any melee skill to speak of. Same with all those voiced based stunts that don't tie into communication skills. Conversely it's possible to have someone who is a master fencer but who doesn't know any of the stunts. The nice thing about most of the alternative special ability methods is that they are tied closer to skills and characteristics. A character has to study a particular skill or fighting style to get access to special abilities or maneuvers.

I think the setting matters too. The stunt system in Bloode Tide works there because the setting is geared towards a cinematic swashbuckling feel. Captain Blood, Three Musketeers, that sort of thing. But other settings and genres would probably require different stunts that better suited them.

1 hour ago, Zenith Comics Presents... said:

Guess I'll have to think up my own 🙂 

That you can do. Maybe you can start a trend! :). One of the reasons why the stunts system never got used elsewhere is that Bloode Tide wasn't a major title and didn't sell as many copies as say Call of Cthulhu or Stormbringer. 

[Atgxtg]

25 minutes ago, Zenith Comics Presents... said:

Thanks for the links.

Yeah I tried the PDF, sadly thin serif fonts are just brain burning for me, I know I am in a very small minority on that one.

It's not that small of a minority. I know a lot of gamers, myself included who have trouble reading certain font's and point sizes as they get older. 

 

One thing you might try doing is to copy some text from the PDF and paste iit into a document program like Word or Writer, where you can change the font to something more to your liking. It's not a great solution for an entire book, but it might help you go over a section of stuff that you want to incorporate into your own campaign. 

 

[DreadDomain]

5 hours ago, Zenith Comics Presents... said:

So I picked up Blood Tide (PDF) as one of my players is doing a sword bravo in the Albana campaign, and I love how Stunts are powered by PP.

Other than SuperWorld, what other BRP games have cool stuff like that power by PP?

I think having it be PP is just elegant and really capitalizes on something every character has.

Any and all suggestions/links are welcome.

BE HEROIC!

I always prefered the resource points based on POW to be called Power Points instead of Magic Points. Magic is very specific source/special effect but Power Points, as defined by BRP can be broader, encompassing willpowwer, inner power, the capacity to draw on outer power (such as magic if it is defined that way), the capacity to draw on superpower.

Pulp talents in Call of Cthulhu could draw on PP instead of Luck (at a 1 to 5 or 1 to 10 ratio) . It would make more sense to me and represents the inner strength heroes are made of.

[DreadDomain]

3 hours ago, lawrence.whitaker said:

Mythras also has Mysticism which comes with a host of talents that are akin to the Heroic Abilities of old MRQ. Plus, if you pick up Mythras Imperative, we have a basic Powers system in there that gives abilities/powers that can easily be toned to different levels of game play (and are powered by PPs).

Luther Arkwright also has various traits and abilities that can easily be adapted to BRP too.

There's quite a lot available.

Also World United is a good source of traits (not necessarily powered by PP)...

... and you were also about to tell us the release date of Destined, right. Right?

[Mugen]

RuneQuest/Legend/Mythras Battle/Spirit/Common/Folk magic can very easily be used as a basis for this kind of powers, you just have to change the way spells are learned. Same for Elric! magic.

Ar core, you really only need two generic powers, Boost (characteristic) and Boost (skill category). Pay some PP, add X%, done. You could ask for a Ki or Meditation skill roll if wanted, either to allow to use the power or reduce the cost.

For instance, each of the powers mentioned above coul cost 1d6 MP if the roll is failed, 1d3 MP if it is a success, or 1 if it is a critical success, and add either +20% to a skill, or X points to a characteristic.

[Zenith Comics Presents...]

Right now I am looking at Pulp Cthulhu Talents (very nice), but those are more like Feats from D&D, and while I will use them as they rock, what I am looking for are more like "special abilities" and less "powers".

I think some of you are looking at "Powers" which is what all these magic systems would give. I am not seeking that exactly, more like Talents or cool abilities that give the non-magic players cool stuff to since they don't do spells. 🙂

Hope that clears it up.

BE HEROIC!

[lawrence.whitaker]

14 hours ago, Zenith Comics Presents... said:

Thanks for the links.

Yeah I tried the PDF, sadly thin serif fonts are just brain burning for me, I know I am in a very small minority on that one.

I do have Mythras Imperative but on a quick scroll I didn't see any powers, what section are they in?

Thanks for taking the time. 🙂

BE HEROIC!

It's actually in the latest version which you can download here.

[Zenith Comics Presents...]

13 minutes ago, lawrence.whitaker said:

It's actually in the latest version which you can download here.

Thanks very much.

[Mugen]

2 hours ago, Zenith Comics Presents... said:

I think some of you are looking at "Powers" which is what all these magic systems would give. I am not seeking that exactly, more like Talents or cool abilities that give the non-magic players cool stuff to since they don't do spells. 🙂

Hope that clears it up.

I think you have in mind the kind of "feats" games like EarthDawn, Exalted or Qin:the Warring States allow PC to learn and use.

But, to be honest, I see no reason why magic systems could not be used to do what you want, and when I read the two first games in the list, they looked a lot like RQ Battle/Spirit/Common magic to me.

[Atgxtg]

2 hours ago, Mugen said:

But, to be honest, I see no reason why magic systems could not be used to do what you want, and when I read the two first games in the list, they looked a lot like RQ Battle/Spirit/Common magic to me.

Looking at Bloode Tide, the stunts there are somewhat similar to magic too. Basically you pay some Power Points for some sort of instant effect. he major difference between that and a RQ spell is mostly that Stunts can be used in a reactionary role (i.e. to reduced damage after you've been hit), and that they are either instant effect or last for one combat round. That makes them a bit more utility, but makes them a bit less powerful. Other than that it really comes down to trappings, and description. Someone who moves faster  or hits harder could be under the effects of a spell, or they could just be getting a rush of adrenaline, know special techniques, or just be lucky. But it does really seem to come down to presentation rather than game mechanics.

So I think that the sprint magic and powers systems could be adapted into stunts, if desired. And the basic method used and costs could be expanded upon easy enough. Several stunts reduce the difficulty of a particular type of roll by one level for 2 PP, and new stunts that work the same could be created for the skills not already covered. 

[Lloyd Dupont]

4 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

7 hours ago, Mugen said:

But, to be honest, I see no reason why magic systems could not be used to do what you want, and when I read the two first games in the list, they looked a lot like RQ Battle/Spirit/Common magic to me.

Looking at Bloode Tide, the stunts there are somewhat similar to magic too. Basically you pay some Power Points for some sort of instant effect. he major difference between that and a RQ spell is mostly that Stunts can be used in a reactionary role (i.e. to reduced damage after you've been hit), and that they are either instant effect or last for one combat round. That makes them a bit more utility, but makes them a bit less powerful. Other than that it really comes down to trappings, and description. Someone who moves faster  or hits harder could be under the effects of a spell, or they could just be getting a rush of adrenaline, know special techniques, or just be lucky. But it does really seem to come down to presentation rather than game mechanics.

So I think that the sprint magic and powers systems could be adapted into stunts, if desired. And the basic method used and costs could be expanded upon easy enough. Several stunts reduce the difficulty of a particular type of roll by one level for 2 PP, and new stunts that work the same could be created for the skills not already covered. 

However... Just to share my personal (and controversial, I hear) feeling here, I am personally loathe to use the same PP that power everything else to power them... (which I was already told was a mistake!) for a number of reason...

But let's present the main argument why, "PP is the lifeforce of the character, and why do I reinvent the wheel" I was told. Well HP also represent the lifeforce of the character too, yet I don't see anyone having issues with HP and PP being different. And I rather have stunt use a different counter some of the times (which I set around 3 for average character, much more stringent usage being one of my personal pet goal)

Edited November 16, 2021 by Lloyd Dupont

[g33k]

11 hours ago, Zenith Comics Presents... said:

...  I think some of you are looking at "Powers" which is what all these magic systems would give. I am not seeking that exactly, more like Talents or cool abilities that give the non-magic players cool stuff to since they don't do spells. 🙂  ...

For myself, I tend to dislike point-spend driving this kind of ability.

If your swashbuckler knows a tricky cloak-twirl that clearly covers a hidden strike (and thus forces the foe to back-off, because they can't see your blade, cannot tell if you're coming in high-line or low, etc (or alternatively, to grit their teeth and hope to survive the un-parried blow, in hopes of closing with you (and taking your sword and cloak and other prissy little tricks out of the fight! ) ) )  then... why can the swashbuckler only twirl 5 times per day, or 13 times, or whatever your PP limit is?

So long as the talent in question is fundamentally mundane, a matter of wits, of dexterity, of training...  It should *always* be on-tap for the PC (barring extreme fatigue, illness, etc).

It seems to me that as soon as you're into point-driven abilities -- whether you call the points "Magic" points or "Ki" points or "Power" points or "Psionic" points or "Mana" or anything else -- you're into some sort sort of "mystical energies" in some sort of supernatural reservoir, that can be used up; this is different from an inherent skill/talent/etc.

 

Edited November 17, 2021 by g33k

[Lloyd Dupont]

I think it's either unlimited, or point based or (not heard much here) cooldown based or perhaps, much like assassin creed, adrenaline based (win some fight, earn a few of those point up to a maximum), or perhaps semi unlimited with skill roll to lose a power level or not (i.e. get tired)

as to the "real world", it's jab jab punch. one do not punch non stop. for reasons of stamina and setup. how do you reproduce that in game play? cooldown I guess...

pick your poison.. rules are nowhere near perfect approximation of the real world, just acceptable and simple enough model...
that said you are perfectly in your right to dislike all previous model 😄
just be aware that a perfect model is unlikely to be in reach....

Edited November 17, 2021 by Lloyd Dupont

[Atgxtg]

4 hours ago, g33k said:

then... why can the swashbuckler only twirl 5 times per day, or 13 times, or whatever your PP limit is?

Most such artificial limits are there for alleged game balance or to prevent boredom from a player doing the same one thing over and over. 

A more logical in game reason would be that doing it constantly would probably spoil the trick. If a warrior becomes very successful, and his fights famous and witnessed by others, people would start to figure out his trick and how to counter it. 

 

4 hours ago, g33k said:

So long as the talent in question is fundamentally mundane, a matter of wits, of dexterity, of training...  It should *always* be on-tap for the PC (barring extreme fatigue, illness, etc).

Yes, but it shouldn't always be as easy to pull off. For instance, let's say someone always did head shots. Realistically,  opponents would catch onto this and focus more of protecting their heads. 

4 hours ago, g33k said:

It seems to me that as soon as you're into point-driven abilities -- whether you call the points "Magic" points or "Ki" points or "Power" points or "Psionic" points or "Mana" or anything else -- you're into some sort sort of "mystical energies" in some sort of supernatural reservoir, that can be used up; this is different from an inherent skill/talent/etc.

What about Luck? POW is the basis for the Luck roll, and many people believe in luck without considering it supernatural. I can see people getting a lucky break here and there. Some genrers and styles of play kinda of require it. Plus just having a POW attribute is some sort of supernatural reservoir. All the other characteristics are grounded in the real world. POW, not so much. 

[Mugen]

14 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Looking at Bloode Tide, the stunts there are somewhat similar to magic too. Basically you pay some Power Points for some sort of instant effect. he major difference between that and a RQ spell is mostly that Stunts can be used in a reactionary role (i.e. to reduced damage after you've been hit), and that they are either instant effect or last for one combat round. That makes them a bit more utility, but makes them a bit less powerful. Other than that it really comes down to trappings, and description. Someone who moves faster  or hits harder could be under the effects of a spell, or they could just be getting a rush of adrenaline, know special techniques, or just be lucky. But it does really seem to come down to presentation rather than game mechanics.

So I think that the sprint magic and powers systems could be adapted into stunts, if desired. And the basic method used and costs could be expanded upon easy enough. Several stunts reduce the difficulty of a particular type of roll by one level for 2 PP, and new stunts that work the same could be created for the skills not already covered. 

I had an idea some time ago to allow one to cast Battle/Spirit/Common Magic spells in three different possible ways:

-Standard : casting your spell requires 1 round and it lasts for X minutes. As in, well, Standard Battle/Spirit/Common Magic...
-Enchant : your spell has indefinite duration, but your maximum MP total (or the maximum MP total of a crystal) is reduced by its MP cost as long as it remains active. Quite like in Sandy Petersen's Sorcery, but simpler...
-Instant : casting your spell can be done in a reflexive way, but its effects only last for 1 action (and have a better effect/MP ration).

Anyone could learn to cast spells, but in order to cast them either as Standard or Enchant would require some proper training in magic.

Of course, spells with Instant duration would require some changes to fit in this 3 modes model.

[Atgxtg]

7 hours ago, Mugen said:

I had an idea some time ago to allow one to cast Battle/Spirit/Common Magic spells in three different possible ways:

-Standard : casting your spell requires 1 round and it lasts for X minutes. As in, well, Standard Battle/Spirit/Common Magic...
-Enchant : your spell has indefinite duration, but your maximum MP total (or the maximum MP total of a crystal) is reduced by its MP cost as long as it remains active. Quite like in Sandy Petersen's Sorcery, but simpler...
-Instant : casting your spell can be done in a reflexive way, but its effects only last for 1 action (and have a better effect/MP ration).

Anyone could learn to cast spells, but in order to cast them either as Standard or Enchant would require some proper training in magic.

Of course, spells with Instant duration would require some changes to fit in this 3 modes model.

That looks pretty good, and the instant variation seems a lot like what Bloode Tide does. Now BT doesn't treat it as magic, it's just trying to capture the feel of a swashbuckling movie, with people fighting with impromptu weapons, sliding down sails on the knives, going through a fight unarmored and still coming out with nothing more than a scratch, and what not. It;s probably not for everyone, and even the people who like it might not want it for every game, but it does help to make BRP fit the desired genre.

[g33k]

16 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

... What about Luck? POW is the basis for the Luck roll, and many people believe in luck without considering it supernatural. I can see people getting a lucky break here and there ...

"Lucky" is a thing, sure...  But "on-demand" luck (reliable when needed, when selected) kinda smacks of the supernatural.  Hexing or cursing for bad-luck, blessing for good luck... aaaand we're solidly back in "supernatural" territory!

Besides:  by your own argument, POW-based "luck" is supernatural:

16 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

... POW is the basis for the Luck roll ... Plus just having a POW attribute is some sort of supernatural reservoir. All the other characteristics are grounded in the real world. POW, not so much. 

By this criterion, "non-supernatural" luck should be something OTHER than POW based  (just as -- I maintain -- "non-supernatural" stunts should be).
 

 

Edited November 17, 2021 by g33k

[Lloyd Dupont]

13 hours ago, Mugen said:

-Enchant : your spell has indefinite duration, but your maximum MP total (or the maximum MP total of a crystal) is reduced by its MP cost as long as it remains active. Quite like in Sandy Petersen's Sorcery, but simpler...

what bother me with it is, ahem, the "realism" of it.... It seems reasonable and intrinsically well balanced at first... but what if the caster travel to the other side of the world or another plane of existence.. reasonably the enchantment should unravel but the "communication" between the caster and the enchantment bother me here...

anyway, other than that, sorry for the nitpicking, it's intrinsically balanced and seemingly meaningful! 🙂

Edited November 17, 2021 by Lloyd Dupont