Rune Points - Losing

[Mechashef]

My apologies if these have already been answered and yes they probably fall into the category of "whatever the GM decides".

Question 1

Rune Points (RP) can be reduced by casting one-use spells.

What happens if casting a one-use Rune Spell would lower a Rune Priest's RPs below the required minimum (typically 5 RPs)?  Is it:

1. They can't, the spell won't be successfully cast (similar to not being able to voluntarily reduce their POW to less than 18)
2. The spell is cast and the Rune Priest's RPs are reduced to below the required minimum and the priest loses their Rune Priest benefits (similar to if their POW does go below 18)
3. The spell is cast and there are no issues.  Rune Priests are allowed to have less than 5RPs once they have successfully qualified as a Rune Priest

 

Question 2

In a similar way can an Initiate (or priest if option 3 above) go to 0 RPs and if so, what happens?

 

Question 3

For reusable spells, can the RPs be regained while the spell is still in effect?

• Extension allows spells to last for extended periods.  If a spell (Shield for example) was extended for a season, could the RPs used for the Shield spell be regained via a worship ceremony before the Shield spell expires?
• Warding seems like a very relevant example.  If the RPs used for Warding can be regained while the spell is in effect, wouldn't temples and important buildings eventually become infested with dozens or hundreds of Warding spells?

 

Thanks

 

[Bill the barbarian]

These are great questions, I am curious to see the answers! Leaving them here allows the hive mind to get involved which is going to be fun. But I strongly recommend a cut and a paste into RQ Q&A as well for the view from the top.

Edited January 30, 2022 by Bill the barbarian

[Mechashef]

And another that I forgot to add:

When an adventurer gains an RP they also usually gain access to another of the cult's special Rune Spells.

If by casting a one-use Rune Spell their RPs are now less than the number of special Rune Spells they "know", do they also lose access to one or more of those special Rune Spells, bring the total they 'know" down to their new number of RPs? 

 

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Mechashef said:

What happens if casting a one-use Rune Spell would lower a Rune Priest's RPs below the required minimum (typically 5 RPs)?  Is it:

1. They can't, the spell won't be successfully cast (similar to not being able to voluntarily reduce their POW to less than 18)
2. The spell is cast and the Rune Priest's RPs are reduced to below the required minimum and the priest loses their Rune Priest benefits (similar to if their POW does go below 18)
3. The spell is cast and there are no issues.  Rune Priests are allowed to have less than 5RPs once they have successfully qualified as a Rune Priest

As long as they have sufficient RP's to cast the spell, then I'd go with #2.  Clearly they need significant time at the temple to renew their links to the deity, to meditate upon their actions, etc.  If the deity finds, for whatever reason (i.e. a failed Devotion roll), that the priest's actions were out-of-line with the needs of the deity, then I might inflict a Spirit of Reprisal upon them as well.

1 hour ago, Mechashef said:

In a similar way can an Initiate (or priest if option 3 above) go to 0 RPs and if so, what happens?

Yes, and I'd follow the same as above.  Effectively they've endangered their connection to the deity. 

1 hour ago, Mechashef said:

For reusable spells, can the RPs be regained while the spell is still in effect?

Think this was answered in the RQG Q&A somewhere and IIRC it is No.

41 minutes ago, Mechashef said:

If by casting a one-use Rune Spell their RPs are now less than the number of special Rune Spells they "know", do they also lose access to one or more of those special Rune Spells, bring the total they 'know" down to their new number of RPs? 

No, they've simply lost a RP permanently.

[Ludo Bagman]

Question 3 was answered  here or in Rune Fixes 1.

Quote

A Rune spell must expire before the Rune points expended in casting the spell can be replenished. In nearly all cases, additional clarification is not necessary to even spell out in the rules, as the worship ceremony takes longer to perform than the standard duration of a Rune spell. When a Rune spell’s duration is prolonged because of an Extension spell, the Rune points used for both the Extension and the underlying Rune spell cannot be replenished until the Extended spell expires.

Rune points used for Sanctify can be regained normally, if I remember correctly.

The additional question on one-use Rune spells was answered here:

Quote

You permanently lose the Rune points, but not the spell itself.

 

Edited January 31, 2022 by Ludo Bagman

[Shiningbrow]

5 hours ago, Mechashef said:

What happens if casting a one-use Rune Spell would lower a Rune Priest's RPs below the required minimum (typically 5 RPs)?  Is it:

I'd go with #2 - and it's mentioned somewhere about "involuntary leave of absence", until getting the RPs back. If they've got the POW, then just sacrifice for it. If that also takes them below minimum requirements, then they'd have to wait until the POW gain roll kicks in, similar to a DI, and the relevant paragraph on p272.

Personally, I'd have them still acting as a Priest, but without the magical connection (ie, the +20% to the POW-gain roll). Because, really, who's going to know or notice?

 

3 hours ago, jajagappa said:

  If the deity finds, for whatever reason (i.e. a failed Devotion roll), that the priest's actions were out-of-line with the needs of the deity, then I might inflict a Spirit of Reprisal upon them as well.

Owww... That sounds harsh! Imagine Resurrecting the High Priestess, and then getting attacked by Spirits if Reprisal for it!!

 

5 hours ago, Mechashef said:

Question 2

In a similar way can an Initiate (or priest if option 3 above) go to 0 RPs and if so, what happens?

I'd do it similar to question 1, although that'd be even more temporary, as the Initiate would still have POW to sacrifice when they return to the temple (i.e., no minimum requirements).

(Q: are there any One-Use spells initiates can get their hands on? And if so, I'd imagine that their priests would be very cautious about allowing them to get their hands on them too early... I.e., before having about a half-dozen RPs already).

 

Q4 - as @jajagappasaid, you only lose the RP. Spell knowledge and RPs are separate things, and you can also acquire either without the other (obviously,,as some cults have a very small selection, such as spirit cults).

[Alex]

Agree with all the answers thus far, and I think in most cases they're pretty clear-cut.  There's one I think might be argued either way:-

4 hours ago, Mechashef said:

What happens if casting a one-use Rune Spell would lower a Rune Priest's RPs below the required minimum (typically 5 RPs)?  Is it:

1. They can't, the spell won't be successfully cast (similar to not being able to voluntarily reduce their POW to less than 18)
2. The spell is cast and the Rune Priest's RPs are reduced to below the required minimum and the priest loses their Rune Priest benefits (similar to if their POW does go below 18)
3. The spell is cast and there are no issues.  Rune Priests are allowed to have less than 5RPs once they have successfully qualified as a Rune Priest

This one comes down I think to whether this is a magical, otherworldly requirement (need a five-POW bandwidth connection to the god!), or a social one (this person really takes this stuff seriously, we'll give them the Priest job!).  It'd make logical sense for it to be either, so if you have a feeling one way or the other, I'd say go with it.  Or if there's a particular story logic that suggests itself if/when then comes up.  But given that the requirements to be God-Talker are identical, that argues for it being a magical one, or at least a reasonable game-mechanical approximation of the in-world magical otherworldly sitch.

So my take is that they'd lose the game-mechanical benefits of being a priest/god-talker.  But they might keep the social position -- most obviously if no-one else is available to fill it immediately.

4 hours ago, Mechashef said:

In a similar way can an Initiate (or priest if option 3 above) go to 0 RPs and if so, what happens?

This seems in one way a much more clear-cut circumstance, as going to 0 PRP is a weird edge case.  As jaggy says, they've "endangered" their initiatory status, in that they're now in a position that no initiated-five-minutes-ago person would ever be in, so if this did happen, you'd logically lose some or all of the normal "benefits of being an initiate" until this was rectified.  On the other hand how to play that out is a little murkier, and I can see a case for different ways of doing it:-

• Not allowing it;  the connection to the deity won't operate in a self-negating manner;
• It happens, and the character immediately ceases to be an initiate entirely;
• It happens, but the character goes into a temporary (or potentially permanent?) state where they're an initiate with no rune magic;  maybe come the next seasonal holy day when they're obliged to worship, they have to either sack POW, or face the normal consequences of apostasy;
• Or you could avoid it arising by having it work like a "mini-DI", with the immediate loss of a point of POW to the RPP in order to have the magic work.

And just to hedge my own hedge, I think you could even argue that the choice between (some of) those options might be available to the character, to the player, or be determined by story considerations.

I think this came up in another recent discussion, so I'm sure there's already a number of comments saying why that's a terrible take. 🙂

[French Desperate WindChild]

yes they lose their status

 

but do not cry too much, some spiritual retreat, one or two pilgrinage to fight a cult's ennemy in spiritual fight, regain pow, sacrifice it,  be repentant, and you will regain your status after some seasons.

Of course if you want to be at the best place during the sacred time ceremony you should have a very great reason to have spent your RP

For me it is a very nice story to play, when it happens. not just follow rules, but add scenario, opposition and social challenge, danger to prove your PC's  faith, etc..

[Scotty]

This is a great question, as this has not been specifically answered in the Q&A, I have replied here:

 

[Alex]

7 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

but do not cry too much, some spiritual retreat, one or two pilgrinage to fight a cult's ennemy in spiritual fight, regain pow, sacrifice it,  be repentant, and you will regain your status after some seasons.

Of course if you want to be at the best place during the sacred time ceremony you should have a very great reason to have spent your RP

For me it is a very nice story to play, when it happens. not just follow rules, but add scenario, opposition and social challenge, danger to prove your PC's  faith, etc..

Good to have an Official answer on this, thanks Scotty.  But to burble on adjacently regardless...

I do agree there's potential Story reasons to play this otherwise.  There's the question of whether the use of the magic itself was selfish or impious, there's the social outworkings of being an initiate with no divine magic.  Or a god-talker or priest with reduced magic.  Or in the extreme case, if a GT/P does this multiple times, a priest with no magic -- which sounds odd, but because Worship is a skill not itself RM, doesn't have a bootstrapping problem as such.

But for me, I presumptively see any use of rune magic as an inherently devout thing to do.  It's the means by which you're incarnating and manifesting the deity in the world.  Yes, there's "what did the god know?" (and when did they know it!) questions one could ask about how that works at the margins.  And indeed we have, see threads passim!  But in the normal course of events, I don't think the right hand of the deity gives (do this magical thing with my hat on), and then immediately the left hand takes away (bad worshipper, repentance needed, spirits of reprisal, etc).  I think "bad use of rune magic, 15 yards, loss of down" only occurs if there's some gap between apparently pious use of magic, and some consequence that puts a different light on their actions.  I think often this will be mediated by other worshippers, whether by formal invocation of SoRs by someone higher up the hierarchy, or just by a collective perception those worshippers share that filters back to the god.

Maximum Game Fun vs Rules Help Control the Fun is also a consideration here.  Enthusiasts for crunchier systems like RuneQuest often want crisply defined answers to such questions;  practicality (and the express limits of the ambitions in that area of the authors) tends to work against that.

[Bill the barbarian]

22 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

These are great questions, I am curious to see the answers! Leaving them here allows the hive mind to get involved which is going to be fun. But I strongly recommend a cut and a paste into RQ Q&A as well for the view from the top.

11 hours ago, Scotty said:

This is a great question, as this has not been specifically answered in the Q&A, I have replied here:

See, I told you to post this in Q&A (was still entertaining to have it here). Scotty tracked you down anyway! You rock, good sir!

Edited January 31, 2022 by Bill the barbarian

[Shiningbrow]

5 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

See, I told you to post this in Q&A (was still entertaining to have it here). Scotty tracked you down anyway! You rock, good sir!

Having such questions here allows for discussion... In the Q&A, that's verboten.

[Bill the barbarian]

17 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Having such questions here allows for discussion... In the Q&A, that's verboten.

Ergo, I said do both...

I mean we got lucky having him find us here... or he is really that good!

🙂

ETA

thanks again @Mechashef for the excellent question!

Edited February 1, 2022 by Bill the barbarian

[Scotty]

6 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Having such questions here allows for discussion... In the Q&A, that's verboten.

Yes, that's why I answer over there and leave this thread open. 

[Mechashef]

Thanks for the responses people.

 

Very much appreciated.