The Price Of Truestone (and mechanics)

[PhilHibbs]

7 hours ago, Jose said:

True stone (blank) 1000 L per point
True stone already set 200 L per point
Crystal with Pow. 100 L per point
Dead crystal. 20 L per magic point. 

Are these overpriced? What do you think? 

 Firstly, I don't think there is a regular enough market for prices to be stable. Want to buy a crystal? Probably there are none available. Want to sell a crystal? Everyone wants them, but there might not be someone around who can afford the price you want.

Having said that, what I just said isn't very useful! It's good to have a baseline to then roll Bargain on to see if you can find a good buyer or seller. Those look broadly ok to me.

Truestone is by far the hardest to price. For "set" truestone, it depends on what it has been set to, and whether it is currently charged up or not. If it's just got MP in it, its utility value is no higher than a dead crystal, but it has high novelty and status value.

Now, I need to go find the truestone rules again. I can never remember where they are! Ah, Pegasus Plateau.

Truestone is cursed in the latest rules. If you cast a spell into it, you lose the ability to cast that spell again until it's released from the stone. Rune spells lock out the Rune Points until cast. I can't imagine ever casting a spell into truestone, unless I'm retired and living a safe life and want to help out some adventurers, or on my death bed, or I get a solemn promise to use that spell soon. Maybe a priest sending some young bravos off on a mission might cast a few spells into a stone for them to use. Better to put them into a matrix though, or use Spell Trading as that doesn't lock out the points. Truestone is the worst way of loaning magic. As the rules say, "They are often gifted by kings and queens to supplement the power of a single agent on a dangerous mission."

But that's an aside, sort of. Back on topic, lets say a 10 point set stone has been set to hold 5 points of Rune magic. If it's empty, it's going to be worth less than one that has, say, Heal Body and Shield 2. Set truestone with spells in it is unlikely to be sold on the open market, for the aforementioned reason that someone has those 5 Rune Points locked out until the spells are used. They will be mighty peeved if the person that they loaned their RP to is going to sell it to someone who might sit on those spells for a long time. Cult special rune magic is closely guarded, and if you go selling Sword Trance spells on the open market then someone's going to come asking questions.

This may seem to break my usual rule that the game system should not drive the world, but the other way around. "The price of truestone should not vary depending on the rule set being used", I think I once said. However I am not breaking that principle, but that's a digression that I will not expand on here.

Oh, and that MP-storing truestone can be used in a sling to get past Shield spells, but that's a niche use. Make sure you watch where it lands.

Edited February 4, 2022 by PhilHibbs

[PhilHibbs]

The old mechanic for truestone was that it was basically an infinitely large matrix that is set the first time it is touched. You cast all your rune magic into it, and that fixes it with those specific spells like a matrix, and it can be re-filled with those specific spells by casting them into it again.

This was in the old days of no Rune Points. Initiates lost their spells into the truestone, rune levels just cast them and had to worship to get them back as usual.

Yes, it was super-overpowered in the old days, and bring it back as it was would be even more so since the chances are greater that the person finding and touching it will have a bigger selection of spells and wouldn't lose anything by using it. Essentially it would double the RP that you have available, albeit with fixed spells for the doubled set.

Any ideas how we can find a middle ground? I like the limited points that it has now. Getting nine priests to all touch it at the same time and fill it with a hundred divine spell points was rather ridiculous!

[Joerg]

What happens to a spell in a set piece of truestone when the caster of that spell dies before the spell is used?

The RQ3 version of Truestone was almost more cursed, as it could trap an unlucky handler to empty all his rune magic into the mineral.

[Shiningbrow]

36 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Any ideas how we can find a middle ground?

Woyuldn't that middle ground just be that now Truestone has a limited number of points it can hold/ So, you have to be cautious with handling, because you might accidentally put in spells you didn't want (going back to the idea of having to resist doing that casting and keeping it empty to a more opportune(-istic) time)

[Eff]

I'm not sure if anything actually "breaks" in the core RQ gameplay loop by allowing people to recover Rune Points for spells they've stored in Truestone. The default assumption seems to be you recover all your RP between adventures, thanks to seasonal holy days, without any need for bookkeeping just how many you recover, and so it would be strange if receiving this very valuable treasure suddenly saddled you with a bookkeeping load where you had to recalculate your RP value based on how much you'd used from your 3-point or 5-point chunk of Truestone, every season or every time you cast from it or refilled it. And because the spells that can be stored within are permanently chosen, you're not actually getting a chunk of extra RP, you're getting extra RP for a small selection of spells only. 

But maybe giving someone that extra RP is too powerful. So perhaps what Truestone does with regards to Rune Magic is that it stores a moment of time within itself, and when you charge the Truestone up, you roll to cast, sure, but you do everything you need for the spell- roll for the Resistance Table on POW vs. POW, add MP to boost against Countermagic, etc.- beyond selecting a target, without actually comparing it to the target until the time of. So your Truestone is less reliable when it comes to attacks, but is much more useful for defensive or noncombat magic? I'm mostly spitballing restrictions that might be fun more than frustrating. 

[French Desperate WindChild]

18 minutes ago, Eff said:

it. And because the spells that can be stored within are permanently chosen,

That was the case in previous version but i tried to find it in the pegasus plateau but failed

the only permanent thing I found (or misunderstood…) was the split between amount of runespells, amount of spirit spells and mp storage

I may be wrong and my post is more a question than an answer !

 

[Jose]

10 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

That was the case in previous version but i tried to find it in the pegasus plateau but failed

the only permanent thing I found (or misunderstood…) was the split between amount of runespells, amount of spirit spells and mp storage

I may be wrong and my post is more a question than an answer !

 

I think so, you find a 15 points blank stone and you put 6 rp in Spells, heal-4 and 5 mp. Then the stone is set. You can only put a max of 6 points in divine spells at the same time. 

[PhilHibbs]

6 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

That was the case in previous version but i tried to find it in the pegasus plateau but failed

p129, it's in the index.

6 hours ago, Eff said:

...So perhaps what Truestone does with regards to Rune Magic is that it stores a moment of time within itself, and when you charge the Truestone up, you roll to cast, sure, but you do everything you need for the spell- roll for the Resistance Table on POW vs. POW, add MP to boost against Countermagic, etc.- beyond selecting a target, without actually comparing it to the target until the time of. So your Truestone is less reliable when it comes to attacks,

Not sure why that makes it less reliable. If the player rolls, then at least they know that they have a weak or strong attack to use. In that respect it's more reliable as you know if you're throwing a bad roll at the enemy, so that low POW vs POW Sever Spirit you only use against a trollkin or someone you know has low POW. If the GM rolls in secret, then it's no more or less reliable except that you can't augment it with your Hate X passion.

Edited February 4, 2022 by PhilHibbs

[PhilHibbs]

8 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Woyuldn't that middle ground just be that now Truestone has a limited number of points it can hold/ So, you have to be cautious with handling, because you might accidentally put in spells you didn't want (going back to the idea of having to resist doing that casting and keeping it empty to a more opportune(-istic) time)

Fair point.

I think I would go with...

• Limited point capacity as per new rules.
• You are compelled to cast your spells into it, in reverse order that you most recently cast them, until it is full. If you can't remember, it's GM's call.
• Spells are locked to the ones first cast into it.
• RP can be regained as normal.
• It's like a matrix, except that spells have to be cast into it to re-fill, you can't use it at a worship ceremony and re-fill it almost for free.

I'm not sure if it should take spirit and rune spells, or just rune spells. If it's both, then most truestone will only have spirit spells in it because that's what people cast most often. Maybe I would split the points between the two.

[Eff]

36 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

p129, it's in the index.

Not sure why that makes it less reliable. If the player rolls, then at least they know that they have a weak or strong attack to use. In that respect it's more reliable as you know if you're throwing a bad roll at the enemy, so that low POW vs POW Sever Spirit you only use against a trollkin or someone you know has low POW. If the GM rolls in secret, then it's no more or less reliable except that you can't augment it with your Hate X passion.

Probably a better phrasing is "less tailorable to circumstances and so less useful", especially if I actually went and articulated "MPs for boosting also take up space in the matrix" instead of just thinking it. So you have to make your risk evaluations without knowing what you'd use it for except in the broadest senses.

[Shiningbrow]

4 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Fair point.

I think I would go with...

• Limited point capacity as per new rules.
• You are compelled to cast your spells into it, in reverse order that you most recently cast them, until it is full. If you can't remember, it's GM's call.
• Spells are locked to the ones first cast into it.
• RP can be regained as normal.
• It's like a matrix, except that spells have to be cast into it to re-fill, you can't use it at a worship ceremony and re-fill it almost for free.

I'm not sure if it should take spirit and rune spells, or just rune spells. If it's both, then most truestone will only have spirit spells in it because that's what people cast most often. Maybe I would split the points between the two.

Why not just have different variants of Truestone? Some are Rune Spells only, some are Spirit magic only, some are a mix, all have a maximum point value for whatever it does?

This would garner quite a variety... E.g., 5 point RP, 7 point spirit, 3 MP storage.

Or just 7 RP... 

[PhilHibbs]

11 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Why not just have different variants of Truestone? Some are Rune Spells only, some are Spirit magic only, some are a mix, all have a maximum point value for whatever it does?

Ah but which is the "true" truestone? 🤔

[g33k]

13 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Why not just have different variants of Truestone? Some are Rune Spells only, some are Spirit magic only, some are a mix, all have a maximum point value for whatever it does?

This would garner quite a variety... E.g., 5 point RP, 7 point spirit, 3 MP storage.

Or just 7 RP... 

IMHO only, of course; but... that makes it too much like crystals.  I like how Truestone is like this monolithic other thing from what crystals are & can do.

YMMV, YGWV, etc etc etc ad infinitum et ad nauseam.

[PhilHibbs]

3 hours ago, g33k said:

IMHO only, of course; but... that makes it too much like crystals.  I like how Truestone is like this monolithic other thing from what crystals are & can do.

And I also like the "you don't get any choice in the matter" aspect of Old School Truestone.

Edited February 5, 2022 by PhilHibbs

[Shiningbrow]

10 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Ah but which is the "true" truestone? 🤔

Truly!

[Shiningbrow]

9 hours ago, g33k said:

IMHO only, of course; but... that makes it too much like crystals.  I like how Truestone is like this monolithic other thing from what crystals are & can do.

YMMV, YGWV, etc etc etc ad infinitum et ad nauseam.

Other than the MP storage (fair enough - I agree), I don't really see it. Yes, there's a crystal that is used for storing spells... But those spells can be swapped in and out. With Truestone (so it appears) what goes in would be permanent.

So, yes, sort of similar... But not much different to enchantments. Certainly enough for flavour. MGF + MSG FTW 😁