Humakt and turtles

[FungusColombicus]

Other than the use of turtles for armor, does anyone knows what is the legend/story that links the turtles to the Humakti cult?

[Brian Duguid]

This doesn't answer your question but does include an image and some further information. It's associated only with the Hiia Swordsman sub-cult.

 

[Brian Duguid]

Perhaps @M Helsdon can comment on where the idea of Hiia using a turtleshell cuirass comes from, to see if that sheds any light on a relevant legend?

Note that in Storm Tribe, the Hiia Swordsman sub-cult just "decorate their shields and armor with shells".

[Brian Duguid]

Also see Glorantha Sourcebook page 13, which doesn't explain why Hiia "made himself a breastplate of turtle-shell", but does at least refer to it.

[David Scott]

2 hours ago, FungusColombicus said:

Other than the use of turtles for armor, does anyone knows what is the legend/story that links the turtles to the Humakti cult?

It's specific to the Hiia subcult (the FHQ bodyguard), not Humakt generally. I think it's another one of Greg's many one-liners that have no background other than the mention. Hiia is mentioned in various sources such as King of Sartar, the Glorantha sourcebook and Heortling Mythology. I think the simplest answer that as he was from the Holy Country, he grew up on the coast and was familiar with turtle shell as a material. He was clearly a bit of a character, so likely adopted turtle-shell armour as part of his childhood heritage.

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

It's specific to the Hiia subcult (the FHQ bodyguard), not Humakt generally. I think it's another one of Greg's many one-liners that have no background other than the mention. Hiia is mentioned in various sources such as King of Sartar, the Glorantha sourcebook and Heortling Mythology. I think the simplest answer that as he was from the Holy Country, he grew up on the coast and was familiar with turtle shell as a material. He was clearly a bit of a character, so likely adopted turtle-shell armour as part of his childhood heritage.

From what I heard, the shells are of huge snapper turtles living in the waterways of the Grazelands, so sweetwater species.

The Hiia cult provides the Humakti bodyguard of the FHQ and thus would have been around since 1450 or so, but Hiia the individual might have entered Dragon Pass already during the Inhuman Occupation, if my memory doesn't play a trick on me.

The turtle shell offers a fairly good protection without much resources required, making it perfect for the Vendref who were unlikely to amass much in the way of weapon grade material prior to the FHQ reforms.

Edited March 1, 2022 by Joerg

[Eff]

The immediate real-world analogue would be the magic sword Thuan Tien/Heaven's Will, given to Le Loi, founder of the Le dynasty that ruled Dai Viet after it managed to achieve independence from Ming China. The sword was returned after victory to a gold-shelled river turtle, as it had been a loan from the Dragon King beneath the waters. As far as swords and turtles in combination go.

So presumably the Hiia cult could have a variation on this story. 

[g33k]

There is AFAIK only a small amount of historically-attested turtle-shell armor, mostly from southeast Asia...

I find on Los Angeles' NHM website some vambraces from New Guinea, and a helmet from the Philipines.


(n.b. if you Google, you'll need to exclude several other games... Minecraft, Terraria, Elden Ring, etc)

[g33k]

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

... I think it's another one of Greg's many one-liners that have no background other than the mention...

This seems overwhelmingly likely to me.  Scope for YG to V.
(also, it seems interestingly-akin to the "wooden sword" Humakti; although the "bokken" and Musashi myths offer clearer RW sources.)
 

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

... I think the simplest answer that as he was from the Holy Country, he grew up on the coast and was familiar with turtle shell as a material. He was clearly a bit of a character, so likely adopted turtle-shell armour as part of his childhood heritage.

An excellent notion!  Easy-peasy solution.
 

 

28 minutes ago, Joerg said:

...  the shells are of huge snapper turtles living in the waterways of the Grazelands, so sweetwater species.
...

The turtle shell offers a fairly good protection without much resources required, making it perfect for the Vendref who were unlikely to amass much in the way of weapon grade material prior to the FHQ reforms.

Excellent point!

Taken altogether, we seem to have the needed bits... 
But, of course, a less-mundanely-driven, more-mythic backstory might also be welcome!

 

[FungusColombicus]

11 minutes ago, g33k said:

Taken altogether, we seem to have the needed bits... 
But, of course, a less-mundanely-driven, more-mythic backstory might also be welcome!

Looks to me there is nothing really defined… I can tell my GM some background story about why my Humakti will take as personal offense mistreatment of river turtles and tortoises. Something in the lines of why Humakt let turtles live longer than any animal.

[g33k]

8 minutes ago, FungusColombicus said:

Looks to me there is nothing really defined… I can tell my GM some background story about why my Humakti will take as personal offense mistreatment of river turtles and tortoises. Something in the lines of why Humakt let turtles live longer than any animal.

I think in the existing canon, it's only the Hiia subcult -- not Humakti in general -- who may have a special thing about turtles.

But YGWV !

[M Helsdon]

5 hours ago, Brian Duguid said:

Perhaps @M Helsdon can comment on where the idea of Hiia using a turtleshell cuirass comes from, to see if that sheds any light on a relevant legend?

Sorry, I can't, but would guess that it is perhaps related to Hiia's geases; perhaps he was forbidden metal armour, and turtle shell was a locally available alternative?

I include the construction of, and illustrate turtle shell armour in The Armies and Enemies of Dragon Pass.

Edited March 1, 2022 by M Helsdon

[JRE]

To me it is clear that this is virgin territory, and the best story will probably win, if it is good enough, by being included in any official grazelander write up. 

How I would do it, loaning from the good ideas above. Hiia came from the Holy Country, and was familiar with turtle shell as a material. He had a Humakti geas of not using metal armor, at least in his chest, so turtle shell was a good alternative to leather, and probably more striking as well. When his wanderings took him to the Grazelands, and he decided to teach swordplay to the Vendref, metal was very scarce, so he made do with what was available, and to his surprise there were large turtles in the waterway, that probably were hunted as a communal activity, so lots of turtle shell. 

I would not say they protect turtles, as you may have to kill quite a few every year, and surely they are dangerous to life and specially limb. But probably some ritual hunt and "correct" way to hunt them to make sure the shell is not damaged, as well as some tests and trials based on facing turtles on your own. I would not expect Humakti to be really concerned about befriending or taming turtles, more on how to kill them and how to make useable equipment from them. 

It has to be a large turtle for a breastplate. Shields will probably be more common, at least till trade with Tarsh and Sartar have brought metal and plentiful leather goods. 

Mechanically a turtleshell cuirass is superior to most other chest armor alternatives. Cheap, with no penalties, and protects like ringmail. So I would probably make it available in a few places only. And now I know at least one of the Grazeland towns will have turtleshell artisans, and other turtleshell items, from combs to cups.

[JRE]

Thinking of RW non-metal armors, even though it might be a slight derail, Sarmatians and Scythians used a horn scale armor, made by slicing horse hooves  to make the scales, and then sewing them on a leather garment with sinew. It feels a very appropiate armor for Grazelanders. Although it would also be appropiate for humakti with non-metal armor geases, I would expect it is a rider armor, so culturally inappropiate for the Hiia Swordsmen. In practical terms it would be similar to the light scale in the rulebook.

Turtleshell can be molded by skilled artisans, by controlled heating and cooling, like most keratin based materials. That means you can manufacture the same objects as horn.

[Ochoa]

On 3/1/2022 at 1:49 PM, FungusColombicus said:

Something in the lines of why Humakt let turtles live longer than any animal.

This is sheer genius. Write (and share!) the myth!