Surprise and encounter distance

[Atlantean]

How are folks handling determining surprise and encounter distance in any given interaction?

[Squaredeal Sten]

First, surprise is a judgment call by the GM.  It involves evaluation of state of mind of the party to be surprised.

Second, surprise does not require that the attacker have invisibility until the first blow is struck.  Instead surprise occurs when the defender has insufficient time to be totally ready before the attacker makes contact (or shoots, depending on the situation).  So if the defenders are mostly asleep in tents with their armor off, they can know the attacker is coming for a few melee rounds (the sentry yells or blows a horn)  but they don't have time to get up, put on their armor, and get armed and form up in a shieldwall.  Maybe they have time to get up and pick up their shields and spears.

If you are writing about the surprise strike rank modifiers on p.193 of RQiG, "within 3 meters" and "within 4-9 meters",  then they still involve a judgment call by the GM as to whether surprise exists.  But that table seems to be oriented to situations in which the surprised characters are armed and nearly ready to fight, since the table doesn't include a modifier of x melee rounds per piece of armor put on, or even the 5 strike rank modifier for readying a weapon or shield  which you can reference on the next page. 

Regarding encounter distance,

-it depends on visibility:  Terrain, light conditions, fog all affect this.  It may also depend on whether there are sentries, and on hide and scan rolls.

-If using an encounter table, the most detailed I have seen is in "Close encounters of the Sartar Kind", available from Jonstown compendium, which includes die rolls that  resolve to three distance bands.  https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/357562/Close-Encounters-of-the-Sartar-Kind

 

Edited March 14, 2022 by Squaredeal Sten
providing link

[French Desperate WindChild]

9 hours ago, Atlantean said:

How are folks handling determining surprise and encounter distance in any given interaction?

pc are surprised when

 

- they did not see/hear/.. their opponent before the attack

example : ambush

- they did not expect people in front of them could attack them

example : negotiation table

- they saw/heard/... their opponent but are not prepared and have not enough time to

example : you see a troll charging you when you harvest your field

 

Edited March 14, 2022 by French Desperate WindChild

[Atlantean]

1 hour ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

First, surprise is a judgment call by the GM.  It involves evaluation of state of mind of the party to be surprised.

Second, surprise does not require that the attacker have invisibility until the first blow is struck.  Instead surprise occurs when the defender has insufficient time to be totally ready before the attacker makes contact (or shoots, depending on the situation).  So if the defenders are mostly asleep in tents with their armor off, they can know the attacker is coming for a few melee rounds (the sentry yells or blows a horn)  but they don't have time to get up, put on their armor, and get armed and form up in a shieldwall.  Maybe they have time to get up and pick up their shields and spears.

If you are writing about the surprise strike rank modifiers on p.193 of RQiG, "within 3 meters" and "within 4-9 meters",  then they still involve a judgment call by the GM as to whether surprise exists.  But that table seems to be oriented to situations in which the surprised characters are armed and nearly ready to fight, since the table doesn't include a modifier of x melee rounds per piece of armor put on, or even the 5 strike rank modifier for readying a weapon or shield  which you can reference on the next page. 

Regarding encounter distance,

-it depends on visibility:  Terrain, light conditions, fog all affect this.  It may also depend on whether there are sentries, and on hide and scan rolls.

-If using an encounter table, the most detailed I have seen is in "Close encounters of the Sartar Kind", available from Jonstown compendium, which includes die rolls that  resolve to three distance bands.  https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/357562/Close-Encounters-of-the-Sartar-Kind

 

Thank you so much for the in depth reply! Yes, the nature of the surprise state is well understood. The mechanics for determining it in RuneQuest is not well defined. ACKS, BX, 5e all settle on a D6 random approach. RQG (maybe I should use RQW for my game?) it seems in general an opposed roll of moving undetected and detection. Is anyone factoring in an opposed Luck roll?

[Atlantean]

1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

pc are surprised when

 

- they did not see/hear/.. their opponent before the attack

example : ambush

- they did not expect people in front of them could attack them

example : negotiation table

- they saw/heard/... their opponent but are not prepared and have not enough time to

example : you see a troll charging you when you harvest your field

1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

pc are surprised when

 

- they did not see/hear/.. their opponent before the attack

example : ambush

- they did not expect people in front of them could attack them

example : negotiation table

- they saw/heard/... their opponent but are not prepared and have not enough time to

example : you see a troll charging you when you harvest your field

1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

pc are surprised when

 

- they did not see/hear/.. their opponent before the attack

example : ambush

- they did not expect people in front of them could attack them

example : negotiation table

- they saw/heard/... their opponent but are not prepared and have not enough time to

example : you see a troll charging you when you harvest your field

 

The saw heard/not able to react would not cause a strike rank modifier. Troll charging across the field while you are harvesting the field is a nasty situation, to be sure, but you can raise the alarm, cast a spell, run away. 

[Kloster]

PC are surprised when the GM needs them to be surprised. It's his job to have situation where players are surprised.

[Atlantean]

28 minutes ago, Kloster said:

PC are surprised when the GM needs them to be surprised. It's his job to have situation where players are surprised.

I have been impressed with ACKS and it’s ability to create a shared story environment which frees the game master to participate in the story telling without railroading characters into predetermined outcomes. The RuneQuest magic system is far superior, though, as is the character development in play, so I am working to improve this deficit in RuneQuest.

[Kloster]

'ACKS'?

[David Scott]

19 minutes ago, Kloster said:

'ACKS'?

Adventurer Conqueror King System (ACKS)

 

 

 

[Baron Wulfraed]

7 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

If you are writing about the surprise strike rank modifiers on p.193 of RQiG, "within 3 meters" and "within 4-9 meters",  then they still involve a judgment call by the GM as to whether surprise exists.  But that table seems to be oriented to situations in which the surprised characters are armed and nearly ready to fight, since the table doesn't include a modifier of x melee rounds per piece of armor put on, or even the 5 strike rank modifier for readying a weapon or shield  which you can reference on the next page. 

At the risk of offending the readers -- especially those not in US -- consider https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill  (I'd had a few other links, but felt Wikipedia would be the least offensive)

[Atlantean]

49 minutes ago, Baron Wulfraed said:

At the risk of offending the readers -- especially those not in US -- consider https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill  (I'd had a few other links, but felt Wikipedia would be the least offensive)

Why?

[Squaredeal Sten]

7 hours ago, Atlantean said:

Thank you so much for the in depth reply! Yes, the nature of the surprise state is well understood. The mechanics for determining it in RuneQuest is not well defined. ACKS, BX, 5e all settle on a D6 random approach. RQG (maybe I should use RQW for my game?) it seems in general an opposed roll of moving undetected and detection. Is anyone factoring in an opposed Luck roll?

I have to say that even in the restricted case of an opponent within 7 meters, rolling a D6 for surprise seems to me to be vastly less realistic than the GM judging the situation,  with the optional aid of a perception roll.  

[Atlantean]

27 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

I have to say that even in the restricted case of an opponent within 7 meters, rolling a D6 for surprise seems to me to be vastly less realistic than the GM judging the situation,  with the optional aid of a perception roll.  

I completely agree with you. The “gotcha” moments encouraging a high probability of failure that discourage proper planning was what drove me away from AD&D years ago and have maintained a distaste for ACKS even now. 5e is a RuneQuest simulacrum with the surprise mechanics being among the worst parts of the system. Do you use Luck in any way on the surprise determination (skill augment or allow a perception roll)?

[Kloster]

5 hours ago, David Scott said:

Adventurer Conqueror King System (ACKS)

 

 

 

Never heard about it before now, but from what I just read, not my cup of tea.

[Atlantean]

43 minutes ago, Kloster said:

Never heard about it before now, but from what I just read, not my cup of tea.

Crazy thing is they have introduced a minor mechanism for the creation of Petty Heroes from player characters…which we did successfully in a game. It does a great job with economics and downtime activities which I am (partially) importing into my RQ game. Magic system is basic Vancian and really not what I want in a game. 

[Godlearner]

If I am not certain about surprise, I will ask for an opposed Perception (average of Scan and Listen) checks to see if either side has an advantage.

[Atlantean]

54 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

If I am not certain about surprise, I will ask for an opposed Perception (average of Scan and Listen) checks to see if either side has an advantage.

Thank you so much! I have been using the most appropriate detection skill (makes Farsee a powerful spell!). Do you factor in a Luck roll?

[Godlearner]

13 minutes ago, Atlantean said:

I have been using the most appropriate detection skill (makes Farsee a powerful spell!). Do you factor in a Luck roll?

Farsee does not add to the skill, so it should not make a difference. The Luck factor is already built into the rolling the dice.

[Atlantean]

33 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

Farsee does not add to the skill, so it should not make a difference. The Luck factor is already built into the rolling the dice.

Farsee doesn’t add to the skill but it does set an encounter distance to allow “buffing” and other preparations for the encounter, potentially even setting an ambush.

[Godlearner]

51 minutes ago, Atlantean said:

but it does set an encounter distance

If they notice it. I use surprise more at short range.

[Atlantean]

30 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

If they notice it. I use surprise more at short range.

Well, that’s the point really. There is not a mechanic in RuneQuest for determining the state of Surprise which is a defined state within the game. There does exist “when you notice it”. If you notice it because you have been stabbed, you are, in fact, surprised. If you notice the troll a ways out, it may well not notice you until a large rock has fallen on it…resulting in it having been surprised.

Edited March 15, 2022 by Atlantean

[Ryan Kent]

As GM you figure out when the party could conceivably sense the other based upon a multitude of factors, including activity, terrain, background noise or fog, etc. Make opposed or normal stealth perception rolls as appropriate. Base surprise on results; I.e. if one side fails scan and other succeeds they have surprise. 

[Godlearner]

50 minutes ago, Ryan Kent said:

if one side fails scan and other succeeds they have surprise.

I once had both sides fumble and literally walk past each other without noticing.

[Atlantean]

19 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

I once had both sides fumble and literally walk past each other without noticing.

Beautiful!

[Atlantean]

1 hour ago, Ryan Kent said:

As GM you figure out when the party could conceivably sense the other based upon a multitude of factors, including activity, terrain, background noise or fog, etc. Make opposed or normal stealth perception rolls as appropriate. Base surprise on results; I.e. if one side fails scan and other succeeds they have surprise. 

That is the way I have been running it as well. Have you used a Luck modifier/augment at all?