Questions regarding Spirit Storing Crystals in W&E

[Gamesmeister]

1) W&E pg.120 states "If one does not wish to put a bound spirit into an animal as a familiar, one must find or buy a spirit trapping crystal." This seems incorrect, as spirits can also be bound into enchantments as per the RQG rulebook pg 249. Am I right in assuming that's just a typo? 

2) W&E pg 120 states: "Once a spirit has been bound within such a crystal, the POW of the spirit is available for the use of the binder. 

This seems to omit the rule that the binder can also use the spells of the spirit. RQG pg 366 states that  "Spirits may be bound into a magic crystal, or into a specially prepared object or animal as described in the Binding Enchantment section (page 249). The binder of a spirit can use any spirit magic the spirit possesses and the magic points of the spirit to fuel spells."

Am I right to assume that when a spirit is bound into a crystal, the binder can also cast spells spells known by that spirit, in addition to using the spirit's POW to fuel spells (its own or the binder's)?

In fact, to clarify, is the following correct? 

Once a spirit has been bound, whether into a crystal, an enchanted item or a familiar, the binder can use the MPs of that spirit to fuel any spells they cast, and can cast any spells known by the spirit. The spirit itself can never cast spells while bound, unless and until the binder loses control of that spirit (whether voluntarily or not).

Allied spirits obviously work differently from this, and aren't included in the above.

Edited May 16, 2022 by Gamesmeister

[Baron Wulfraed]

2 hours ago, Gamesmeister said:

1) W&E pg.120 states "If one does not wish to put a bound spirit into an animal as a familiar, one must find or buy a spirit trapping crystal." This seems incorrect, as spirits can also be bound into enchantments as per the RQG rulebook pg 249. Am I right in assuming that's just a typo? 

2) W&E pg 120 states: "Once a spirit has been bound within such a crystal, the POW of the spirit is available for the use of the binder. 

I'd suspect this wording may have been taken almost directly from RQ2/Classic -- in particular that fact that it focuses on the POW of the spirit and not the MP. From page 107 "Classic"

Quote

BINDING A SPIRIT - If one does not wish to put a bound spirit into an animal as a familiar, one must find or buy a spirit trapping crystal. Once a spirit has been bound within such a crystal, the POW of the spirit is available for the use of the binder. The spirit may not throw spells itself or take other independent action unless the binder is attempting to control more spirits than his CHA will allow (see Spirit Binding, Chapter V). The bound spirit is destroyed if its POW is reduced to zero. Note
that gods and demigods may not be bound.

Page 43 has

Quote

BINDING SPIRITS
To bind a spirit a character must know the Spirit Binding spell and either have an appropriate animal ready (see spell description), or have a spirit binding crystal (see Chapter IX).

RQ2 only allowed for animal "familiar" or crystal.

2 hours ago, Gamesmeister said:

This seems to omit the rule that the binder can also use the spells of the spirit. RQG pg 366 states that  "Spirits may be bound into a magic crystal, or into a specially prepared object or animal as described in the Binding Enchantment section (page 249). The binder of a spirit can use any spirit magic the spirit possesses and the magic points of the spirit to fuel spells."

Am I right to assume that when a spirit is bound into a crystal, the binder can also cast spells spells known by that spirit, in addition to using the spirit's POW to fuel spells (its own or the binder's)?

RQ2/Classic also had a severe limitation regarding these spells

Quote

Since a disembodied spirit usually forgets all knowledge of battle magic within 1 week after separation from its body, a newly bound spirit usually knows no spells.

A character may teach his spirit any spell he knows over the usual time for no cost. Since he already knows the spell and the spirit is in telepathic link with him, there is no need to pay a Priest to teach it to the spirit. This is not an exception to the rule forbidding teaching of a spell without payment. The effect only lasts as long as the binding is in effect. Once the spirit is freed, it will forget the spells.

Basically, this use would have been to allow the binder to 1) teach spells to the spirit; 2) forget said spells freeing room for new ones; 3) learn new spells while still having access to the original ones.

I didn't crawl through enough of the RQ:RiG book to see if any of these facets carried over from RQ2.

[Scotty]

21 hours ago, Gamesmeister said:

1) W&E pg.120 states "If one does not wish to put a bound spirit into an animal as a familiar, one must find or buy a spirit trapping crystal." This seems incorrect, as spirits can also be bound into enchantments as per the RQG rulebook pg 249. Am I right in assuming that's just a typo?

W&E is a supplement to the Core Rules, and as such doesn't repeat everything in the Core Rules.

21 hours ago, Gamesmeister said:

2) W&E pg 120 states: "Once a spirit has been bound within such a crystal, the POW of the spirit is available for the use of the binder. 

This seems to omit the rule that the binder can also use the spells of the spirit. RQG pg 366 states that  "Spirits may be bound into a magic crystal, or into a specially prepared object or animal as described in the Binding Enchantment section (page 249). The binder of a spirit can use any spirit magic the spirit possesses and the magic points of the spirit to fuel spells."

See above.

21 hours ago, Gamesmeister said:

Am I right to assume that when a spirit is bound into a crystal, the binder can also cast spells spells known by that spirit, in addition to using the spirit's POW to fuel spells (its own or the binder's)?

No. the binder can only use the spirit's magic points and spells if it has any.

21 hours ago, Gamesmeister said:

In fact, to clarify, is the following correct? 

Once a spirit has been bound, whether into a crystal, an enchanted item or a familiar, the binder can use the MPs of that spirit to fuel any spells they cast

Yes.

21 hours ago, Gamesmeister said:

and can cast any spells known by the spirit.

No, the spirit casts the spells on the command of the binder. See RQG Binding Enchantment, page 249.

21 hours ago, Gamesmeister said:

The spirit itself can never cast spells while bound, unless and until the binder loses control of that spirit (whether voluntarily or not).

No. The spirit can cast its spells or use other abilities (if available) under the command of the binder. It can only do it independently if the binder is trying to control more spirits that they have CHA. See RQG Binding Enchantment, page 249.

[Gamesmeister]

1 hour ago, Scotty said:

No, the spirit casts the spells on the command of the binder. See RQG Binding Enchantment, page 249.

First, please see Bound Spirits, pg 366

"Spirits may be bound into a magic crystal, or into a specially prepared object or animal as described in the Binding Enchantment section (page 249). The binder of a spirit can use any spirit magic the spirit possesses and the magic points of the spirit to fuel spells."

This makes no reference to the binder having to command the bound spirit, it simply gives the binder access to any spells known by the spirit.

Secondly, Binding Enchantment on pg 249 makes no mention of the spirit being able to cast it's spells while remaining bound. The only relevant rule in there regarding this subject is the following:

"Some entities have knowledge or abilities which the wielder can use while it is bound within an item. However, many entities are not very effective when so trapped and must be released to be useful (e.g., wraiths, healing spirits, elementals, etc.). Without the use of a control spell, an entity can be released from an item to perform one function, and  then it is free. If a control spell is used before the entity is released, then it can be commanded to perform many actions and return to the binding item. Control spells automatically work against creatures while they are bound in items."

The first sentence confirms that it's the binder casting the spell, not the spirit. The only way the rules would work according to what you're saying is that I cast a Control spell on my spirit, command it to cast a spell, then release it from the binding enchantment so it can cast the spell, then rebind it back into the enchantment. Which would contradict 40 years of RQ, and be very inefficient to boot. 

Edited May 17, 2022 by Gamesmeister

[Kloster]

47 minutes ago, Gamesmeister said:

This makes no reference to the binder having to command the bound spirit, it simply gives the binder access to any spells known by the spirit.

I have the same understanding.

[Scotty]

1 hour ago, Gamesmeister said:

First, please see Bound Spirits, pg 366

"Spirits may be bound into a magic crystal, or into a specially prepared object or animal as described in the Binding Enchantment section (page 249). The binder of a spirit can use any spirit magic the spirit possesses and the magic points of the spirit to fuel spells."

This makes no reference to the binder having to command the bound spirit, it simply gives the binder access to any spells known by the spirit.

Secondly, Binding Enchantment on pg 249 makes no mention of the spirit being able to cast it's spells while remaining bound. The only relevant rule in there regarding this subject is the following:

"Some entities have knowledge or abilities which the wielder can use while it is bound within an item. However, many entities are not very effective when so trapped and must be released to be useful (e.g., wraiths, healing spirits, elementals, etc.). Without the use of a control spell, an entity can be released from an item to perform one function, and  then it is free. If a control spell is used before the entity is released, then it can be commanded to perform many actions and return to the binding item. Control spells automatically work against creatures while they are bound in items."

The first sentence confirms that it's the binder casting the spell, not the spirit.

 

Yes it's the section:

Quote

Those in physical contact with a binding enchantment can mentally communicate with an entity bound inside (if there are no conditions to the contrary) and can command the entity to use its abilities.

It conflicts with page 366, which i'll add to the Q&A.

1 hour ago, Gamesmeister said:

The only way the rules would work according to what you're saying is that I cast a Control spell on my spirit, command it to cast a spell, then release it from the binding enchantment so it can cast the spell, then rebind it back into the enchantment. Which would contradict 40 years of RQ, and be very inefficient to boot. 

No. The binder just has to command it to cast their spell through their mental link. No spells needed.

GMs are free as usual to interpret the rules as they wish in their games.

[SevenSistersOfVinga]

1 hour ago, Gamesmeister said:

the binder casting the spell, not the spirit.

 

9 minutes ago, Scotty said:

The binder of a spirit can use any spirit magic the spirit possesses

What's the mechanical difference between having access to a spell and command a spirit to cast it?

I was under the impression that the time and mechanics are the same, roll powx5, spend mps, take x mrs. 

Regardless if it's in your mind, a spell matrix, a bound spirit or inside a binding crystal. 

If this is not like that then I haven't found descriptions or examples of how each type of spirit magic casting works. 

[French Desperate WindChild]

14 minutes ago, SevenSistersOfVinga said:

 

What's the mechanical difference between having access to a spell and command a spirit to cast it?

I was under the impression that the time and mechanics are the same, roll powx5, spend mps, take x mrs. 

Regardless if it's in your mind, a spell matrix, a bound spirit or inside a binding crystal. 

If this is not like that then I haven't found descriptions or examples of how each type of spirit magic casting works. 

the one who casts determines the POW score

if you order a spirit to cast a spell, you have to use the spirits POW in any resistance table or other roll

If you cast the spell yourself, that is  your own POW to use

 

well it is what I understand

[Gamesmeister]

1 hour ago, Scotty said:

No. The binder just has to command it to cast their spell through their mental link. No spells needed.

GMs are free as usual to interpret the rules as they wish in their games.

Honestly, I just think your interpretation is wrong here. I appreciate they're different versions, but RQ2 explicitly states that bound spirits cannot cast spells themselves, and there is nothing in RQG that contradicts that. Instead, W&E reinforces it by stating that a bound spirit may not throw a spell itself. There is nothing in the rules that supports the suggestion that the binder commands the spirit to cast the spell. 

You quote the following paragraph from pg 249 "Those in physical contact with a binding enchantment can mentally communicate with an entity bound inside (if there are no conditions to the contrary) and can command the entity to use its abilities." However, if you then read the following paragraph you'll see that entities have to be released to use their abilities. You can't just handwave that part away. Either they can cast their own spells, in which case they need to be controlled and released, or they can't cast their own spells.

Conversely, Allied spirits on pg 280 specifically allows the spirit to cast spells. It's written in the rules on Allying a Spirit

In other words, there's really nothing to support your arguments, but a number of rules and text to contradict it.

 

Edited May 17, 2022 by Gamesmeister

[Gamesmeister]

1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

the one who casts determines the POW score

if you order a spirit to cast a spell, you have to use the spirits POW in any resistance table or other roll

If you cast the spell yourself, that is  your own POW to use

 

well it is what I understand

It also means that the spirit would get POW gain rolls rather than the PC, and raises questions about whether commanding a spirit is your only action of the round. Given that talking is considered almost instantaneous, does this mean you can command your bound spirit to cast a spell while you swing you sword at your foe? Is there a SR cost of commanding the spirit? If the spirit casts Fireblade, an active spell, does that mean the spirit has to concentrate on it rather than the binder? etc.etc.

Edited May 17, 2022 by Gamesmeister

[French Desperate WindChild]

10 minutes ago, Gamesmeister said:

It also means that the spirit would get POW gain rolls rather than the PC

I m not sure of your conclusion

From my perspective (but that is just mine, no proof, need other answers), spirit as any non mundane world native, is somewhere "frozen" by the great compromise. it cannot change by itself, experience, etc.. Only mundane decision (aka sacrifice, etc...) may add POW to spirit.

 

14 minutes ago, Gamesmeister said:

Given that talking is considered almost instantaneous, does this mean you can command your bound spirit to cast a spell while you swing you sword at your foe? Is there a SR cost of commanding the spirit? etc.etc.

same when you are leading your warriors and  commanding them to go there or there : are your focus on your opponent and can use your sword to attack, or are you just able to defend yourself ?

 

[SevenSistersOfVinga]

31 minutes ago, Gamesmeister said:

Given that talking is considered almost instantaneous, does this mean you can command your bound spirit to cast a spell while you swing you sword at your foe? Is there a SR cost of commanding the spirit? etc.etc.

That's my question, we assumed that you casting the spell took the same time, required the same roll and costed the same regardless of the container of the spell. 

If the same rules don't apply, using your fireblade on a sword, using a sword with a fireblade matrix or from a gem with a spirit of fireblade is not the same (+3mr, 4mp, powX5) then I have a lot of questions. 

The only reason I can think for them to not work the same is to circumvent limitations of the spell like "Well, yeah, it says it's active but you see, it's my spirit the one that uses it, like it's not me, I still can do another 6 actions on this round because I'm super good at bending the rules"

I don't know, it sounds overengeniered vs "you know the spell, you use the spell" regardless if it is just shared from your bond with this fire spirit or because you know the spell. 

Maybe we got it wrong, how do you do it?

[Gamesmeister]

32 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I m not sure of your conclusion

From my perspective (but that is just mine, no proof, need other answers), spirit as any non mundane world native, is somewhere "frozen" by the great compromise. it cannot change by itself, experience, etc.. Only mundane decision (aka sacrifice, etc...) may add POW to spirit.

If that were true then a Fetch would never get a POW gain roll

[French Desperate WindChild]

Just now, Gamesmeister said:

If that were true then a Fetch would never get a POW gain roll

no :  fetch is part of the shaman, and the shaman is mundane native

[Gamesmeister]

7 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

no :  fetch is part of the shaman, and the shaman is mundane native

This looks like an interesting conversation, but for another thread 😄

[Kloster]

Another problem I see arriving with the spirit casting the spell (in addition to active spells) is the one of SR. If you cast the spell, you spend the SR casting it, which limits your actions. If the spirits casts them, you can act (attack for example) during the time the spirit is casting (let's say the spell is cast SR5 and your attack is on SR6, you attack with Fireblade on 1st round). Moreover, you are engaged, but the spirit is not, and you can order it to cast second sight, then befuddle or disruption on the perceived targets.

The effects can give interesting tactics, but it is best to be sure what is the rule.

[French Desperate WindChild]

49 minutes ago, SevenSistersOfVinga said:

I don't know, it sounds overengeniered vs "you know the spell, you use the spell" regardless if it is just shared from your bond with this fire spirit or because you know the spell. 

Maybe we got it wrong, how do you do it?

 

37 minutes ago, Kloster said:

Another problem I see arriving with the spirit casting the spell (in addition to active spells) is the one of SR

as said, for me that the same than a war leader giving order.

so I would extend this :

Quote

Prepared spell or weapon 0

Prepare a new weapon, reload a missile weapon, spell, or ready a missile (arrow, sling stone, crossbow bolt, etc.). +5

if you see your spirit in your sword as a "stormbringer", you may decide some trigger : "when I  drow my sword/you out of the sheath, cast fireblade", I see it as prepared spell (but of course it means the spirit will cast the spell everytime even when you don't want, and no, i will not accept too complex condition, except if your spirit has INT 15+)

 

if you want your spirit to cast the spell on demand, or your phallanx to move on the left, or your healer to flee ... , I see it as a new "action/preparation/reload" so +5

 

note that is an explorating discussion for me , I m not full convinced, but it seems to me acceptable at first sight

 

[Akhôrahil]

4 hours ago, Kloster said:

Another problem I see arriving with the spirit casting the spell (in addition to active spells) is the one of SR.

Sure, but this - that it's super easy to get a ton of additional effective actions through spirits - is a game design problem. It's not really any different than having a bunch of crummy human followers support you with Spirit Magic spells, apart from the spirits normally being less squishy and obtrusive.

It could be solved by ensuring that spirits have to be told to do something using your own SRs, but I think it's fairly clear that the rules aren't intended to work that way. This (perhaps unfortunately) isn't something the game bothers with.

Edited May 17, 2022 by Akhôrahil

[Kloster]

18 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Sure, but this - that it's super easy to get a ton of additional effective actions through spirits - is a game design problem. It's not really any different than having a bunch of crummy human followers support you with Spirit Magic spells, apart from the spirits normally being less squishy and obtrusive.

Agreed.

18 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

It could be solved by ensuring that spirits have to be told to do something using your own SRs,

Also agreed.

18 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

but I think it's fairly clear that the rules aren't intended to work that way.

Unfortunately true.

[JRE]

I suppose the main problem with the bound spirit casting the spell is targeting.

If I have a spirit in a crystal in a sword pommel, it would be relatively easy to have it cast a spell on the sword, or, if you are in contact with the crystal, on you. But if the spirit is on a crystal on a necklace, it probably can cast on you (you can be a bit retentive and require the crystal is in skin contact), but it cannot cast fireblade on the sword because it has no idea where is the sword.

That makes spirits with INT very valuable, though you need a 3 point spirit binding enchantment, and one with knowledge of Second Sight extremely valuable, as they can target spells outside physical contact. Rather than tons of random encounters I would develop cult spirits that the cult "loans" with desirable spells or attributes, or that you can research and investigate in the case of sorcerers, or you can search for in the Spirit Plane in the case of shamans.

That should  require an investment of time and or goodwill, and that is good. Just looking for random spirits will probably just bring up animal spirits (without INT) or with spells of limited usefulness. Getting a spirit with INT 14, POW 14, Multimissile 4, Speedart and Heal 6 to place in your bow would require a pilgrimage either physical or spiritual to an Elf forest, and some kind of payment or agreement, or alternately a loan of the Church or Temple of an enemy spirit from the vaults, made only for a promising member. 

Not a random roll but an adventure hook. 

[SevenSistersOfVinga]

53 minutes ago, JRE said:

Getting a spirit with INT 14, POW 14, Multimissile 4, Speedart and Heal 6

That sounds like a Snake daughter or a thunder brother level spirit to me, a very lucky black horse/ghost maybe. 

We have those guarding temples, rarely following a hero.

So yes, I agree is not a random roll 

Edited May 18, 2022 by SevenSistersOfVinga

[JRE]

I was thinking of a High King Elf, as suggested in the adventure hook, but your ideas could work too, and the setting and the potential donors would be different.

[SevenSistersOfVinga]

On 5/18/2022 at 3:38 PM, JRE said:

That should  require an investment of time and or goodwill, and that is good. Just looking for random spirits will probably just bring up animal spirits (without INT) or with spells of limited usefulness. Getting a spirit with INT 14, POW 14,

What I would like to have an idea is how much time?, like we have a very detailed experience system, skills, stats,pow checks, rune points, detailed gear but how do I get a spirit? 

I don't know if one can summon a cult spirit every day/week/season and go around with cha/3 spirits with 15 mp, 15 spirit magic points and 7 runepoints each 

That sounds easy, use summon cult spirit, command cult spirit, command it into a crystal. Why wait to be a runelord to do a spell matrix Enchantment if I can get 15 spirit spell points like that? Plus mp, runepoints and maybe a skill the spirit has?

Then I wonder, how easy are those to get? Am I getting the bound spirits wrong and people just Summons them on the fly? 

What spirits can vasana get and how? If she has 6 runepoints to spend and a crystal can she put a thunder brother (4d6 of rune magic) spirit in it just by passing a pow vs pow? 

If it's not one of those, a plant spirit with 14 cha has 14 spirit spells, one of the random generated ones on the bestiary has a good chance of having 2d6 of rune magic.

Are crystals way more rare than I thought?

Characters spend 3-4 adventures getting 1 pow and in that time they can get 30 runepoints just by binding spirits?

[JRE]

I agree that this is not clearly explained, and it becomes important once you can start summoning spirits or controling spirits you find.

First of all, except for some special cult spirits that your cult will forbid you from binding, such as the Thunder Brother you mention, most spirits will not have runepoints. They might have had it, but they cannot renew their runepool, and may have even forgotten who was their god. 

I would make most random spirits lack INT. Animals and plants outnumber people, after all. Most cult spirits probably have INT, as they are former people or Godtime entities, but even then Rune magic will be rare, as well as opportunities to join in worship. Cult spirits spirit magic should reflect the cult, which may mean you are better off negotiating for spirits with your associate cults rather than your own cult. There may well be limitations included, such as freeing or returning the spirit after a specific time, or an exchange of spirits between allied cults. I also expect cults keep also bound enemy spirits, but those will be mainly used as prizes for great actions or support for special missions. Normally you should bind in animals only cult spirits or others you can expect to be mostly on your side, as it is easy for them to escape. 

It can easily create memorable items with the right spells, such as a Yelmalio shield with Lantern, Cordination, Parry and Heal. A poor Templar ally spirit. 

At the end of the day, the best options for bound spirits come from having a friendly shaman, if you want something different from your cult. 

But some guidelines, frequencies or even what to expect from your cult as a function of your status would be helpful.

[SevenSistersOfVinga]

49 minutes ago, JRE said:

They might have had it, but they cannot renew their runepool, and may have even forgotten who was their god. 

Ohh, ok, so all magic is "one shot" 

51 minutes ago, JRE said:

Normally you should bind in animals only cult spirits or others you can expect to be mostly on your side

I had to read about binding to animals, thanks!

1 hour ago, JRE said:

some guidelines, frequencies or even what to expect from your cult as a function of your status would be helpful.

Yes!