Questions regarding Spirit Storing Crystals in W&E

[Shiningbrow]

On 5/17/2022 at 5:57 PM, Scotty said:

On 5/16/2022 at 8:29 PM, Gamesmeister said:

Am I right to assume that when a spirit is bound into a crystal, the binder can also cast spells spells known by that spirit, in addition to using the spirit's POW to fuel spells (its own or the binder's)?

No. the binder can only use the spirit's magic points and spells if it has any.

Hi @Scotty

Would you please edit this?

You first say "no", then confirm exactly the thing you said "no" to. (I acknowledge that the first quote from Gamesmeister is a little confused, esp using the POW, and "(its own or the binder's)" - as "its own" is superfluous)

From what I am getting, when you have a bound spirit (regardless of where it is, for the most part), you can a) use the spirit's MPs, b) use the spirit's spells (as if the spell were in a matrix), c) get the spirit to cast its own spells (but targetting might be an issue), or d) command the spirit to leave the binding object and cast its spells or use its abilities, eg, spirit combat (if you don't have a Control spell on it, then it leaves after doing so. If it is still Controlled, then you can then command it to do other things within the time limit, including having it re-enter the binding).

[French Desperate WindChild]

3 hours ago, SevenSistersOfVinga said:

That sounds easy, use summon cult spirit, command cult spirit, command it into a crystal. Why wait to be a runelord to do a spell matrix Enchantment if I can get 15 spirit spell points like that? Plus mp, runepoints and maybe a skill the spirit has?

seems to me you will not find rules for that, like for "how much can I sell xxxx", or even "if I have 2k silver coins, is it easy to buy a matrix ?, we have the price we don't have the frequency"

I don't know if it is good or not to not have such rules. It could drive so much frustration if the designer choice is clearly not your game style.

 

If you play with me (well first, speak french 😛 ) you will know that

- to sell something, you must 1) find a buyer (merchant or not) ,  2) accept a big price reduction than the official price (lowerest price when your buyer is an intermediate like a merchant, every one wants money)

- to buy something you must 1) find a seller (merchant or not) accepting the trade (availability, but for enchantment, few people, IMG, will accept to sell a part of their soul for money)

- you will have some issue to obtain from a cult any spirit (what did you for our great god, arrogant slug ?)

- you will be really challenged by your priests (or others priests even in not your hierarchy) and your gods if you obtain by yourself a cult spirit (summon, bind etc..) : "What a big blaspheme to think you can do your shopping for your own purpose, heretic !"

- if you obtain spirits who  don't want it, you will be chased by their great masters (gods or spirits) and their minions

In my glorantha, spirits are not resources you can appropriate. Most of them depends on some "party" (cult, elements, ...) and are protected by them. I see them like any npc

 

 

 

[SevenSistersOfVinga]

22 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

don't know if it is good or not to not have such rules. It could drive so much frustration if the designer choice is clearly not your game style.

I would read them and then do my "mgwv" thing, but at least I have an idea, am I supposed to be playing with Summons or its a one time thing? Are spirits with their cha full something everyone has or commanding spirits is a rare, unique skill?

22 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

If you play with me (well first, speak french 😛 ) you will know that

😁 we all have issues

22 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

you will have some issue to obtain from a cult any spirit

I love this, it tells me a spirit is another being, like you, me and Bob over there, if you have one it means a relationship instead of "spirits are spiritual plankton that you use to power spells" 

I don't have the experience to balance this on my own, so that's why I ask, specially since the range of powers is so wide

(From "you have a dog spirit that sniffs stuff and gives you 4 extra mp" to "you go with 6 spirits of 2d6 rune point each or 15 spirit spells each animal spirit")

22 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

spirits are not resources you can appropriate. Most of them depends on some "party" (cult, elements, ...) and are protected by them. I see them like any npc

Good, I like this approach. 

Edited May 20, 2022 by SevenSistersOfVinga

[French Desperate WindChild]

22 minutes ago, SevenSistersOfVinga said:

I don't have the experience to balance this on my own, so that's why I ask, specially since the range of powers is so wide

(From "you have a dog spirit that sniffs stuff and gives you 4 extra mp" to "you go with 6 spirits of 2d6 rune point each or 15 spirit spells each animal spirit")

yes balance may be (or is always) an issue.

my advice : consider your own rule as not independant but part of your global system

define a "measure"

for example MP :

do you allow a lot of matrix, crystal, etc... what is the average Magic Point pool a pc can use ?

consider now that your spirit is MP ( POW + specific ability you have to "translate" into mp, think about spell effect to the translation)

and that's it

if you allow people to have 250 mp storage, you will allow a lot of spirits (from a balance perspective)

If, like me, a pc is "rich" with 10mp storage, allow only your little dog spirit (of course, when pc succeed somethjing important, the reward may be a bigger spirit)

 

here is only if you look for a balance system.

32 minutes ago, SevenSistersOfVinga said:

am I supposed to be playing with Summons or its a one time thing?

 

If the spirit is "here"  (matrix, cristal or anything, or even if you meet it) you don't have to summon it. If the spirit is not here and you want it, you have to summon it (or maybe I don't understand your question ?)

34 minutes ago, SevenSistersOfVinga said:

Are spirits with their cha full something everyone has

1) using ancestor table (red book p88) I would say very rare spirits are full of their cha

2) using all npc tables (scenario, background, etc), I would say few people have spirits

37 minutes ago, SevenSistersOfVinga said:

commanding spirits is a rare, unique skill?

command cult spirit is common rune magic so it is... common to have the ability 🙂 from my perspective, using this spell for religious ceremony or temple management is common (worship, etc...), but use spirit for your own purpose is uncommon . now having spells to command other spirits outside your cult seems to me rare

 

[SevenSistersOfVinga]

9 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

1) using ancestor table (red book p88) I would say very rare spirits are full of their cha

I see, I was working with plant and animal spirits from the bestiary, I'll take a look at this one. 

13 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

here is only if you look for a balance system.

I have an idea of balance so I will do this. Thanks again! 

[Shiningbrow]

11 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

What a big blaspheme to think you can do your shopping for your own purpose, heretic !"

- if you obtain spirits who  don't want it, you will be chased by their great masters (gods or spirits) and their minions

I disagree with these to an extent.

The first will depend on your rank, and the type of spirit you're binding.  I doubt many Orlanthi are really going to go on a rampage if you bind Air elementals. But, they'd be somewhat miffed if an outsider had a Thunder Brother. (if an Orlanth Rune Master had a Thunder Brother,  they might just congratulate them for having the blessings of Orlanth ).

 

Re: the second bit... that would be acting in Time, and having that sort of awareness.  Gods and Great Spirits aren't really known for acting on their own volition within Time. There should at least be some sort of triggering event before you get chased. And, again,  I don't think it's that bad. Or Gods would be calling all those Spirits turned into ghosts.

[Baron Wulfraed]

12 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Hi @Scotty

Would you please edit this?

You first say "no", then confirm exactly the thing you said "no" to. (I acknowledge that the first quote from Gamesmeister is a little confused, esp using the POW, and "(its own or the binder's)" - as "its own" is superfluous)

I'd concur that this seems somewhat ambiguous... but...

12 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

From what I am getting, when you have a bound spirit (regardless of where it is, for the most part), you can a) use the spirit's MPs, b) use the spirit's spells (as if the spell were in a matrix), c) get the spirit to cast its own spells (but targetting might be an issue), or d) command the spirit to leave the binding object and cast its spells or use its abilities, eg, spirit combat (if you don't have a Control spell on it, then it leaves after doing so. If it is still Controlled, then you can then command it to do other things within the time limit, including having it re-enter the binding).

... between my interpretation of RQ:RiG "bound spirit" and that of RQ2/Classic... I think I prefer RQ2.

RQ2: a bound spirit basically acts as a self-refilling MP storage pool, with a (call it something modern) "flash drive" for spell storage. The binder can cast spells using their own or the spirit's MPs, and can cast spells known (stored) by the spirit (and the description seems to imply spirits will need to be taught the spells as they commonly will have forgotten those of their former existence). Teaching the spirit one's own spells bypasses the normal costs for learning spells as it is a not a permanent condition -- if the spirit is released it will forget the spells [and they don't return to the binder]. BUT, teaching the spirit spells means the binder can then "forget" the spell themselves to make room to learn other spells. The spirit does not cast spells on its own or under command.

 

RiG: a bound spirit in contact with the binder can be "commanded" to cast the spells it knows using its MP pool. The binder can not "read" the spells to cast them him/her-self, nor use the spirit's MPs to cast spells on their own. But there is a problem here -- the rules also state that a bound spirit loses awareness of the surroundings! So how can the bound spirit target the spells it is casting? I suppose spells targetting the binder (since "contact" with the bound spirit's housing is required) might be possible: "follow the mental linkage back to 'me'".

 

Edited May 21, 2022 by Baron Wulfraed

[French Desperate WindChild]

7 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

I disagree with these to an extent.

The first will depend on your rank, and the type of spirit you're binding.  I doubt many Orlanthi are really going to go on a rampage if you bind Air elementals. But, they'd be somewhat miffed if an outsider had a Thunder Brother. (if an Orlanth Rune Master had a Thunder Brother,  they might just congratulate them for having the blessings of Orlanth ).

 

Re: the second bit... that would be acting in Time, and having that sort of awareness.  Gods and Great Spirits aren't really known for acting on their own volition within Time. There should at least be some sort of triggering event before you get chased. And, again,  I don't think it's that bad. Or Gods would be calling all those Spirits turned into ghosts.

you can disagree of course, our glorantha may vary 🙂

 

but see my points

1) does a air spirit accept to be bound, so to lose its freedom for personal purpose. If it is an "alliance" no problem, there is some gain for it pain, but if not, if it is a domination ? Do Orlanthi, who worships air spirits, accept those they worship to be enslaved ?

1b) yes I agree about ranking, and my point was for typical adventurer. However that's about the same: a priest will have cult spirits with him for good reason. That's the difference between a good priest and Lokamayadon (well propaganda perhaps 😛 )

 

2) Yes it is acting in time, and awarness. And there is awareness for some reasons

- great compromise doesn't prevent the gods from being contacting by mundane "sources" (worshipper, shaman, spirits...) . the spirit, once bounded in the mundane world, is in time, is a mundane "source". That may spend time, that may require to cross the sources, but it will

- great compromise doesn't prevent the gods to answer (answer, not initiate) in the mundane world. The only issue is they can't "create" / "imagine" new types of reaction. They must follow patterns they followed before GP. Pretty sure there were a lot of occasions to save their followers before what mortals call Time.

 

2b) From my perspective, in addition, there are a lot spirits present - sp aware - in the mundane world: if people needs shaman to deal with spirits, to appease them, to bargain with them, that means spirits are among them and can do things by themselves.

 

I agree, after Argrath, in my glorantha, that will not be possible to have any "revenge", but after Argrath, in my glorantha, you will not be able to bind spirits because mundane world will be for mundane creature

[Shiningbrow]

1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

1) does a air spirit accept to be bound, so to lose its freedom for personal purpose. If it is an "alliance" no problem, there is some gain for it pain, but if not, if it is a domination ? Do Orlanthi, who worships air spirits, accept those they worship to be enslaved ?

For the standard 1-3pt Summon elemental, I don't think most cult members would care. For anything that's 4 points (eg, Thunder Brother), then they probably would - if a non-Initiate of Orlanth. If you are an Orlanthi, then I'd say the priests would take it as a sign of great things to come from that Initiate.

1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

- great compromise doesn't prevent the gods from being contacting by mundane "sources" (worshipper, shaman, spirits...) . the spirit, once bounded in the mundane world, is in time, is a mundane "source". That may spend time, that may require to cross the sources, but it will

But let's just look at what those entities can do - and in what situations. In order to manifest the deity, you need to either spend rune points to emulate the god in a specific (and very limited) way, or DI - (again, in very limited and specific ways). A(n intelligent) bound spirit would either need to cast a Rune spell, or DI...

How are any other cult members even going to know that one of their spirits is bound while it's within the binding, and if it's unable to manifest???

1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

but after Argrath, in my glorantha, you will not be able to bind spirits because mundane world will be for mundane creature

I just ignore that, because it's no longer the Glorantha I love.

[French Desperate WindChild]

2 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

For the standard 1-3pt Summon elemental, I don't think most cult members would care. For anything that's 4 points (eg, Thunder Brother), then they probably would - if a non-Initiate of Orlanth. If you are an Orlanthi, then I'd say the priests would take it as a sign of great things to come from that Initiate.

But let's just look at what those entities can do - and in what situations. In order to manifest the deity, you need to either spend rune points to emulate the god in a specific (and very limited) way, or DI - (again, in very limited and specific ways). A(n intelligent) bound spirit would either need to cast a Rune spell, or DI...

How are any other cult members even going to know that one of their spirits is bound while it's within the binding, and if it's unable to manifest???

I just ignore that, because it's no longer the Glorantha I love.

Your perspective seems to me very -centric 🙂 when my gloranthan perspective is less : there are other entities. Human, troll etc are not alone.  There are spirits. There are beasts, there even are plants 

spirits can see spirits without effort so any friendly spirit may alert (or not depends on the spirit personality )

exactly the same process than shaman may meet friendly neutral or hostile spirits. How a wolf spirit could be friendly with  a telmori shaman and hostile with a brother dog shaman if not ?

 

[Shiningbrow]

17 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Your perspective seems to me very -centric 🙂 when my gloranthan perspective is less : there are other entities. Human, troll etc are not alone.  There are spirits. There are beasts, there even are plants 

spirits can see spirits without effort so any friendly spirit may alert (or not depends on the spirit personality )

exactly the same process than shaman may meet friendly neutral or hostile spirits. How a wolf spirit could be friendly with  a telmori shaman and hostile with a brother dog shaman if not ?

 

Not quite.

Spirits see spirits... on the spirit plane. Or if they have some sort of Second Sight.

I would have the spirits in a binding only visible on the material plane, and only with that mystical vision (and, unless one had a special ability to go with it, wouldn't be able to tell what type of spirit was bound. Once it's out of the binding,  then maybe.)

After that,  sentience is required,  as well as caring. I would presume that most won't care enough do much about it... unless the bound spirit is special. Binding a local water nymph would probably get a big response from some, but an animal spirit won't.

Binding someone's ghost probably wouldn't even raise an eyebrow,  unless you knew the original person. (and, even then, the ghost may actually be happier)

[davecake]

On 5/17/2022 at 5:57 PM, Scotty said:

W&E is a supplement to the Core Rules, and as such doesn't repeat everything in the Core Rules.

That’s a roundabout way of justifying that it’s a mistake. 

On 5/17/2022 at 5:57 PM, Scotty said:

No, the spirit casts the spells on the command of the binder. See RQG Binding Enchantment, page 249.

This contradicts Pg 366, ‘The binder of a spirit can use any spirit magic the spirit possesses and the magic points of the spirit to fuel spells. ’

 

[Scotty]

12 hours ago, davecake said:

That’s a roundabout way of justifying that it’s a mistake.

It is an omission in W&E, however it's a still supplement to the main rules. We can't repeat everything from the Core Rules in supplements, the same goes for within the Core Rules themselves.

12 hours ago, davecake said:

This contradicts Pg 366, ‘The binder of a spirit can use any spirit magic the spirit possesses and the magic points of the spirit to fuel spells.

Yes as already stated:

On 5/17/2022 at 1:55 PM, Scotty said:

It conflicts with page 366, which i'll add to the Q&A.

[Gamesmeister]

8 hours ago, Scotty said:

It is an omission in W&E, however it's a still supplement to the main rules. We can't repeat everything from the Core Rules in supplements, the same goes for within the Core Rules themselves.

Yes as already stated:

Or you could, you know, admit you've made a mistake, remove some incorrect entries from the FAQ, and not add yet another one just to double down on that mistake?

[Scotty]

10 hours ago, Gamesmeister said:

Or you could, you know, admit you've made a mistake, remove some incorrect entries from the FAQ, and not add yet another one just to double down on that mistake?

I'm happy to correct any errors in the Q&A, please pm me with the pages that need changing. Errors occasionally creep in.

[Gamesmeister]

On 5/26/2022 at 9:26 AM, Scotty said:

I'm happy to correct any errors in the Q&A, please pm me with the pages that need changing. Errors occasionally creep in.

 

Pg 120 of W&E

Binding a Spirit: If one does not wish to put a bound spirit into an animal as a familiar, one must find or buy a spirit trapping crystal. Once a spirit has been bound within such a crystal, the POW of the spirit is available for the use of the binder. The spirit may not throw spells itself or take other independent action unless the binder is attempting to  control more spirits than their CHA will allow.

As per the above, please can you remove the entry in the Q&A that says bound spirits can cast spells they know, thanks