Some Fetch-ing Questions

[Shiningbrow]

1 hour ago, PhilHibbs said:

Okay okay but apart from disease resistance, sacrifice, category modifiers, and the ability to ever cast a spell...

what has having a high POW ever done for us?

Luck rolls.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

7 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Okay okay but apart from disease resistance, sacrifice, category modifiers, and the ability to ever cast a spell...

what has having a high POW ever done for us?

Under the RQG rules, these are all very good reasons (plus luck rolls) for a shaman to maintain a decent POW and not give it all to their fetch.

None of them apply under the Well of Deliah modifications.  And these are reasons why those modifications are flawed.

[Squaredeal Sten]

On 6/19/2022 at 11:18 AM, PhilHibbs said:

What are the down sides of a shaman giving all but one point of POW to their fetch? It does seem that a 100% chance of a POW gain is rather attractive.

1. Disease - Soul Waste would be instant death.
2. Sacrifice - if you find yourself needing to use some POW for something, you have none to spare.

Any others?

How low would you go?

Re. any other down sides of giving all but 1 POW to the fetch:

For the shaman to get a chance to roll for POW gain, at least before the free chance at Sacred Time, that shaman would actually have to succeed in a POW vs. POW contest.  Presumably using some spirit magic spell or in spirit combat.  Magic points is a function of PO. 1:1 as i recall, so he has 1 MP.  Of course his fetch's POW will be counted for POW vs. POW -   But his chance of casting the spell in the first place gets a -10% modifier at POW 1-4, too.  [RQiG p.59] 

If he gets into spirit combat the damage will come off his own 1 MP, not from the fetch.  Also, his spirit combat damage will probably be 1D3 (+3 for being a shaman, RQiG p. 358) unless he has a really good CHA.  At 0 MP he is going to fall unconscious after casting, isn't he? [RQiG p.54].   And per the same page he will regain MPs at the rate of 1/4 of current POW every 6 hours, so if you don't round up he will be unconscioous for 24 hours.  All this is not good for a magic specialist whose forte is supposedly dealing with spirits.  We can expect to see him possessed.

Next problem: Look at RQiG p.358, Spirit Pacts;  if the shaman approaches spirits in the spirit world, a hostile spirit will be able to see the shaman's extremely low POW and will attack.  That's not good for a shaman with 1 POW and the matching low spirit combat damage. 

Next problem; The fetch is created during stage 3 of the shamanic initiation / summoning of the fetch. (RQiG pp. 354-366).  Stage 5 is the Reward, which gives an opportunity to sacrifice characteristic points for shamanic abilities.  At 1 POW he's not going to be sacrificing POW so he will be sacrificing something harder to increase, like SIZ or INT.  This only opens up hard choices.  Why does he want hard choices?

One more disadvantage:  The shaman's Divine Intervention roll is based on his own POW, without counting the fetch's.  [RQiG p. 356, last sentence of What the Fetch Provides to the Shaman]

 

How low would I go?  Well let's say the aspiring shaman has a POW of 20.   He gives 8 POW in his Stage Two sacrifice / to make the fetch.  If he plans to sacrifice POW for 4 shamanic abilities then he will end with POW 8 and an 8-POW fetch.  Spirit magic casting chance will be 35% (40%-5% modifier), so try not to get into any one on one magic duels.   At that POW level (8+8) he will be successful in a lot of POW check situations, and his POW gain rolls will be (21-8}x5= 65% chances.   He has some ability to take spirit combat damage, and his magic skills category modifier is -5 while his spirit combat damage will likely be 1D6 (+3 for shamanhood}, not great but acceptable to me.  Several other skill modifiers for POW will be -5% but his first POW gain roll will bring those up to 0%.  So life will be rough until his first successful POW gain roll, but will improve thereafter.

Considering my own bad die luck that is about as  low as I have the risk tolerance for.  Your own risk tolerance may vary.

Edited June 21, 2022 by Squaredeal Sten
capitalization; one more... not the but he.

[PhilHibbs]

1 hour ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Under the RQG rules, these are all very good reasons (plus luck rolls) for a shaman to maintain a decent POW and not give it all to their fetch.

None of them apply under the Well of Deliah modifications.  And these are reasons why those modifications are flawed.

The Well:

Quote

The fetch provides POW and magic points to the shaman. Its magic points are always accessible to the shaman, and its POW is nearly always added to that of the shaman’s (except for POW gain rolls).

Hm. Is that really supposed to be taken as literally as that? It's really supposed to add to category modifiers? Luck rolls? Spirit spell casting? I doubt it, and not in my game.

There's p.356 "A discorporate shaman does not use their fetch’s magic points for defense while traveling in the Spirit World", where I think for "magic points" we should read POW as that's a copypaste from RQ3. So there's a major problem, you are super vulnerable in the spirit plane.

Also it doesn't solve the Soul Waste problem. You can't take disease POW loss off your fetch.

Edited June 20, 2022 by PhilHibbs

[Rodney Dangerduck]

12 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Hm. Is that really supposed to be taken as literally as that?

Hm, Yes?

If not, just keep the original wording, that the Fetch adds in POW v POW contests.  Which is how I am going to play it.

 

Edited June 20, 2022 by Rodney Dangerduck

[Squaredeal Sten]

6 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

The Well:

Hm. Is that really supposed to be taken as literally as that? It's really supposed to add to category modifiers? Luck rolls? Spirit spell casting? I doubt it, and not in my game.

There's p.356 ....

I can'tpossibly take it that way.  It would contradict too much of the rules as written.  What's the point of writing the book then?

  

[Rodney Dangerduck]

I think we are all in violent agreement!

[French Desperate WindChild]

another perspective, I just have (before it i was on the "POW is always added" is too much)

my question, as I see shaman at the same level than priest or runelord.

If there is not the "POW + POW always rule" will our new shaman be as powerful as a new rune master ?

If there is the "POW + POW always rule"  will our new shaman be more powerful than a new rune master ?

I really don't know

 

from a roleplay perspective, fetch is just part of the character, not another one, not an allied spirit, the shaman herself.

 

from a gameplay perspective, a shaman is a magician. she must succeed often to cast spell. she must have a great POW and sje must have spirits

 

so let's start with a new shaman with 20 POW

she split her pow between her mundane part (the character POW) and her fetch

let follow 3 options

case 1:  "mundane" POW : 1 / fetch POW : 19

case 2: "mundane" POW : 10 / fetch POW : 10

case 3: "mundane" POW : 19 / fetch POW : 1

 

now, for the player what happens if there is no "POW +POW always" rule

 

case 1:  5% to cast a spell for the shaman ? ... so only the fetch can cast a spell, no difference between be a shaman, and not be a shaman.

You have spirits, you are a "spirits manager", but you are not a caster (well you may have one or two good spirits able to cast one specific spell or two, but I would prefer to obtain spirits with specific abilities more than spell casting, question of choice).

And this for a long time, until the shaman "mundane" POW become 12-14 % (2 years if you are able to get a pow check every season ?) So a lot of scenarios where you are not so usefull than the background may say.

 

 

case 2: the shaman can cast two spells (shaman + fetch) at 50%. Is it better than be able to cast one spell at 95% ? It depends.

she  has not a lot of good spirits, only one or two useful spirits (only 10POW, remember). she may be considered as useful, but is she more useful than a priest or a runelord ?

So the shaman is a moderate spell caster (less than a priest /runelord) and a moderate spirit manager.

She needs time (2 years ?) to become a powerful spell caster (mundane POW at 18+) OR a powerful spirit manager (fetch POW at 18+). Becoming powerful in both "careers" will take time too

 

case 3 : the shaman can cast one spell (shaman herself) at 95%. she knows a lot of spells (or spells with high magnitude) as she has her CHA + her fetch's CHA pool. However she cannot bind any spirit (1 POW ....)

this shaman is then a powerful spell caster but a ridiculous "spirit manager". And the bad thing is... how much time you need to gain 10 POW (for your fetch) when you have 20 mundane POW ...So case 3 shaman is powerful but very limited in term of evolution

 

Of course cases 1 2 and 3 have all the two big advantages of the shaman :

- spirit combat (where the "POW + POW in spirit combat only" applies, as the additional damage bonus

- specific ability

these two big advantages (at the beginning of the career) are about in the same range than getting an allied spirit and some gear from the temple.

 

so I don't know, without POW+POW, it seems to me that a shaman (cases 1 and 2) is less powerful than a "divine" rune master. Case 3 is special, because the progression is too hard.

What do you mean ?

 

[SevenSistersOfVinga]

38 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

case 3: "mundane" POW : 19 / fetch POW : 1

The only valid option to me.

Having 10 pow on a caster is really hard to play and to get what? The chance to have a spirit of 10 pow? Get a binding and move on. Need mp? Do some spirit pacts.

The other option (1) is playing with the fetch instead of the shaman and the fetch is not a full character, fetch pow 19 is a rule bending artiluge that leverages a crack in the system (pow 1 levels up faster) and should not be a valid option or at least not encouraged.

 

The pow on the fetch seems overrated to me, (besides having pow + fetch pow on pow vs pow)

have a nice little fetch and play your character, I doubt any runelord would go around wirh pow 1 because they spent all of theirs in divine interventions to get their allied spirit a boost.

 

 

47 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Case 3 is special, because the progression is too hard.

Case 3 is the same progression than all the other characters, shamans have a skill to get +1 to their pow roll like priests do and that's about it. They can have a plus 10 is that's so important.

I don't see why a shaman would need twice as much pow than the others to be on the same group. 

 

[Shiningbrow]

1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

so only the fetch can cast a spell, no difference between be a shaman, and not be a shaman.

Except.. the Fetch can't target in the mundane world... unless it manifests/materialises.

[French Desperate WindChild]

1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

 unless it manifests/materialises.

which is some "standard", no ? I mean as a shaman I would play my fetch to work with me, even in fight, except when I fear it will be destroyed ?

 

1 hour ago, SevenSistersOfVinga said:

Case 3 is the same progression than all the other characters, shamans have a skill to get +1 to their pow roll like priests do and that's about it. They can have a plus 10 is that's so important.

I don't see why a shaman would need twice as much pow than the others to be on the same group. 

my point is if you start at 19/1 and want to become a full shaman (aka "spirit manager" too), you need to have your fetch with high POW. this progression is the lowest, if you compare with other shamans (cases 1 or 2):  (i have added your +1 but I'm not sure, don't find the reference, anyway it doesn't change the process)

case 1 start 1/19 -> 19/19 =  ~51 seasons

case 3 start 19/1 -> 19/19 = 180 seasons

Without a strong fetch, you are only a strong caster , but you cannot come with your heal spirits, shadow, salamander, and, just in case of, 10 sylphs to flee with your group (ok you need more than 19 fetch-pow to brin all these spirits  😛  )

 

[PhilHibbs]

2 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

case 1:  5% to cast a spell for the shaman ? ... so only the fetch can cast a spell, no difference between be a shaman, and not be a shaman.

Except the shaman does not get a POW gain roll if the fetch did the casting.

1 hour ago, SevenSistersOfVinga said:

Case 3 is the same progression than all the other characters, shamans have a skill to get +1 to their pow roll like priests do and that's about it. They can have a plus 10 is that's so important.

What is that referring to?

[French Desperate WindChild]

3 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Except the shaman does not get a POW gain roll if the fetch did the casting.

true during fight or important action for the group. But you may hope your player to find a way, for example trying to challenge a weak spirit (1d6 pow, ...) maybe summon the same while it is a challenge, once  known. In case of danger, the fetch will save her

Edited June 21, 2022 by French Desperate WindChild

[SevenSistersOfVinga]

9 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

added your +1 but I'm not sure, don't find the reference, anyway it doesn't change the process)

 

7 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

What is that referring to?

RIG page 361 

Soul Expansion 
Each point of Soul Expansion adds +1 to the shaman’s species 
maximum POW. This improves his chance to increase POW 
by experience.

 

[French Desperate WindChild]

14 minutes ago, SevenSistersOfVinga said:

 

RIG page 361 

Soul Expansion 
Each point of Soul Expansion adds +1 to the shaman’s species 
maximum POW. This improves his chance to increase POW 
by experience.

 

oh I was looking for a generic ability (for all shaman) but yes that is a great ability if you choose it. however there is a cost, and having a lot of points(to allow a "fast" evolution) gives a lot of penalties (taboos or characteristic sacrifice)

[SevenSistersOfVinga]

16 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I was looking for a generic ability (for all shaman) but yes that is a great ability if you choose it.

Like you said the difference between playing a low pow high earning chance character cuts 1/3 the amount of time it takes to get power points. These are not only useful for the shaman.

runelords and priests, everyone uses the same currency and I wouldn't like a group where most of the players have 10 rune points and one of them has 30. 

I find weird that a character who's main stat is pow, their main casting skill is solely pow based, their main modifier is based on pow and his damage is based on pow suddenly and totally not metagamingly decides that going with pow 1 is the best idea.

I'm not calling for a lynching or to change the rules, I just reward the shamans that play along their strengths and not the experience system quirks

[PhilHibbs]

1 hour ago, SevenSistersOfVinga said:

RIG page 361 

Soul Expansion 
Each point of Soul Expansion adds +1 to the shaman’s species 
maximum POW. This improves his chance to increase POW 
by experience.

That has been "clarified" to not be the case. Chance to increase above species maximum is 5%, unless they are also a priest with the +20% e.g. Aldrya, Waha, Kyger Litor (but not Yelm Golden Bow).

I'm not a fan of this change, it leaves non-priest shamans at a severe disadvantage. It should be instead of the priest bonus, they certainly shouldn't stack.

Edited June 21, 2022 by PhilHibbs

[SevenSistersOfVinga]

7 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

That has been "clarified" to not be the case. Chance to increase above species maximum is 5%, unless they are also a priest with the +20% e.g. Aldrya, Waha, Kyger Litor (but not Yelm Golden Bow).

Oh thanks, I didn't know that 

[Squaredeal Sten]

17 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

That has been "clarified" to not be the case. Chance to increase above species maximum is 5%, unless they are also a priest with the +20% e.g. Aldrya, Waha, Kyger Litor (but not Yelm Golden Bow).

That is another reason why Waha is a superior path if you want a shaman character.  

The other reason is that Waha gives more shaman abilities.

But I think that we have demonstrated why you won'tgain by either the fetch or shaman having POW 1.

 

[PhilHibbs]

4 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

my question, as I see shaman at the same level than priest or runelord.

Sort of.

4 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

If there is not the "POW + POW always rule" will our new shaman be as powerful as a new rune master ?

If there is the "POW + POW always rule"  will our new shaman be more powerful than a new rune master ?

I don't see those questions as being fundamentally important, although I have no objection to them being considered. A new shaman is, in my opinion, a little below the power level of a new priest. Which is fine, as it's a lot easier to become a shaman than to become a priest. Any starting Apprentice Shaman can become a full shaman right away, in game mechanical terms, there are no hard rules that say "not until you have X% in skill Y".

The difference that it makes as far as I can see is that whilst the new shaman will be in some ways vulnerable, the accelerated POW gain will make a big difference in the medium term.

The other question, of course, is if the Waha shaman-priest goes below 18 POW, do they stop being a priest? I guess so, there's nothing that says that once they're a shaman then they are automatically and forever a priest. They can lose that status by not fulfilling the requirements, so they would lose the +20% POW gain roll chance until they get their POW back up to 18.

When Vishi Dunn awakens his fetch, his POW goes down from 19 to 14 so whilst he is a shaman, he is not a priest. I guess. Not sure about whether that restriction is imposed.

I just noticed another problem that Vishi Dunn faces. He doesn't have Devotiion (Waha) or Loyalty (Temple), he does have Loyalty (Mentor) 60% which I guess could serve as a substitute. Or Loyalty (Argrath) if he becomes a shaman via the White Bull cult, which may function as a subcult of Waha.

Edited June 22, 2022 by PhilHibbs

[French Desperate WindChild]

19 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

I don't see those questions as being fundamentally important,

I started to think about this point because you :

Quote

Is that really supposed to be taken as literally as that? It's really supposed to add to category modifiers? Luck rolls? Spirit spell casting? I doubt it, and not in my game.

the true question is, what difference it makes to have POW + POW or not. So I compare a shaman (with the "old fashion" rule you follow, no offense, I do the same) with priest and other rune level.

 

Just to see if the POW + POW is not in fact, something to align shaman pc with priest pc (balance perspective).

I m not sure it changes a lot.

What I anticipate is that without POW +POW, a new shaman is weaker in some point (depending on your split choice) than what she was before she had a fetch. In this case it is the only "upgrade path" giving such a loss. When you become priest, runelord, etc.. you lose a little bit of freedom, but no % anywhere

And it is long to compensate the loss. With the "POW + POW", the shaman has the same % to cast a spell than previously, the same skill bonus, etc.. and it is just a progression

 

19 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

The other question, of course, is if the Waha shaman-priest goes below 18 POW, do they stop being a priest? I guess so, there's nothing that says that once they're a shaman then they are automatically and forever a priest. They can lose that status by not fulfilling the requirements, so they would lose the +20% POW gain roll chance until they get their POW back up to 18.

I m not sure, but I believe Scotty already answered (the well ? q&a ? ) once priest, you stay a priest, even if your POW is lower than 18

 

 

Edited June 21, 2022 by French Desperate WindChild

[Rodney Dangerduck]

How the eff does one be a shaman - priest giving 180% of your time to your clan and cult?  Also mythologically wonky, shaman don't worship gods (at least, not much, I'm ok with them being initiates, just not priests), they deal with spirits.

[French Desperate WindChild]

1 hour ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

How the eff does one be a shaman - priest giving 180% of your time to your clan and cult?  Also mythologically wonky, shaman don't worship gods (at least, not much, I'm ok with them being initiates, just not priests), they deal with spirits.

I see priest-shaman as one occupation (90%) : your activity is to be the spiritual guide. That's fit because the entity you worship is both the shaman's entity and the divine source of your priesthood magic.

Of course if you are shaman of KL you must be priest of KL, not of AA.

[Squaredeal Sten]

1 hour ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

How the eff does one be a shaman - priest giving 180% of your time to your clan and cult?  Also mythologically wonky, shaman don't worship gods (at least, not much, I'm ok with them being initiates, just not priests), they deal with spirits.

Waha priests are shamans.  RQiG p.306  "Requirements: The Waha cult has shamans instead of Rune Priests.  Any Waha initiate who becomes a shaman qualifies for this status.  See the Shaman in the Spirit World chapter for more information."

"NOTE: Shamans serve as priests for the Waha cult and in exchange for four shamanic abities they must take the following four taboos;".....

Khans (Waha rune lords) are also priests, same page reference.

Maybe the forthcoming gods book will give us more detail or more hairs to split.  But for now as I read RQiG it doesn't say Khans have to have POW18, only (p.280) the standard rune lord requirement of CHA18 - which, interesting enough, is not repeated on p.306.  I will say that it is ambiguous whether they must also satisfy the priest requirements p.277, but a straightforward reading of p.306 suggests not.  Luckily no one in my Praxian campaign has CHA18 so khan status is not an immediate issue for me.

However all this shaman stuff is an issue, as we have an assistant shaman with ambition.  

But anyway, re. 180% of time to the cult -  no, IMG 90% as usual.  And Waha is not the only cult with rune lord-priests, see Humakt who has no priests per se, only rune lords who will perform the function of priests. (RQiG p.297)

Edited June 21, 2022 by Squaredeal Sten
can't highlight and change font on my phone.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

39 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

The Waha cult has shamans instead of Rune Priests.

(Emphasis added).  Waha doesn't have Priests. As noted a few sentences later, they have shamen who "serve as" priests.  Presumably to initiate people and lead services and that sort of thing.  In all other respects, they are shamen.

Therefore, only 90% of their time, but no +20% POW gain roll, no Ally Spirits, etc...

Edited June 21, 2022 by Rodney Dangerduck