My Space Campaign

[rust]

I agree that Star Wars has a more interesting treatment of religion than Star Trek, but for my

taste it is still not plausible enough, mainly because all the races of the entire galaxy seem to

share the same basic ideas about the Force. In comparison, in the Babylon 5 universe each of

the races has its own distinct religion, and some - like the humans - even have lots of different

religions. Since I would expect that different cultures as well as different members of the same

culture have different spiritual needs and experiences, such a multitude of different religious

ideas seems more convincing to me than both the absence of religion in Star Trek and the mo-

nolithic religion in Star Wars.

[seneschal]

Unfortunately I never got to watch much Babylon 5, although its approach does seem more realistic. One episode I did see seems to fit the discussion. The human lady officer was trying to resolve a blood feud between two alien factions whose only apparent point of contention was the different colored medallions their leaders wore. Peace talks failed (the aliens used the meeting as an excuse to ambush each other). Swapping the medallions between leaders failed, since former friends immediately attacked each other once their allegiance was changed. She finally took the medallions away from the aliens and wore both of them herself, uniting the warring factions beneath her leadership without ever learning what the fuss was about or what the significance of the medallions was.

[sdavies2720]

That sounds like Ivanova all right. Loved that series. I watched part of it recently, and was struck by the mediocrity of the acting and how quickly the overall plot arc moved forward in each episode. Neither of those were as obvious when watching for the first time.

Many episodes had side stories that were religion- and philosophy-based.

[rust]

Unfortunately I never got to watch much Babylon 5, although its approach does seem more realistic.

The Wikipedia article on Babylon 5 has a passage about religion that describes quite well what

the author's intentions concerning religion were and how he treated the subject in the series:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylon_5

[Marchand]

On setting design, while bottom-up is a good principle for the physical bits (planets, characters etc.), I would advise the OP to think through some of the basic features of his setting first. Like, do you or do you not have FTL comms? Otherwise you risk something like the following: after a few weeks of happily tramping speculative freight around the Five Suns Federation, it becomes plot-necessary to be able to place a call to a different system. Fine. Next thing, someone asks: so this cargo we're being offered... why not call up our potential destinations and get quotes there? Maybe even lock in a price?

Puff goes spec-trade campaign.

How FTL travel and comms work (if at all) is probably the key question to answer. Plus, is the economy post-scarcity (via quasi-magically-good nanotech or whatever)? And, how good is neuroscience - can you upload personalities? If so, physical death becomes less of an issue.

Oh yeah, and probably: are there aliens, and if so, what tech level and what degree of physical / political power? If there are aliens roughly comparable to humans in tech and military power, I think it's much more likely that humanity will be organised under some sort of unified government.

Random suggestion: one of the SF backgrounds I've liked most recently is Hinterwelt's Nebuleos. The thing I like best about it is that humans are the oppressed underclass of the setting, rather than the dominant players as usual. Straightaway made it fresher.

[Conrad]

It was a little more aggressive than that.

Sorry Seneschal but I didn't see any aggression towards any earthbound religions at all.

I also didn't see any Enterprize crew screaming "DEATH TO ALL PRIESTS!" whilst waving a copy of Richard Dawkins's The God Delusion and burning down a church; which would be aggressive.

TNG took things a step further. Now we have French martinet Picard as a captain who makes occasional favorable references to Man's supposed perfection via evolution..

Since when has evolution been against religion, unless you happen to be a creationist idiot like Kent Hovind? Even the Catholic church embraces it nowadays. There are even Christians, like Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, that believe evolution will eventually make us all fuse with a divine creator.

..a holodeck instead of a chapel..

If they’d have had a holodeck program called “Kill a priest” then maybe it would have been more prejudiced and aggressive.

When Picard is mistaken by ignorant alien natives for a god he is outraged and anguished, not only because he doesn't want to deceive the locals but because the very notion of deity is childish, superstitious nonsense. Mankind has evolved beyond such things and he doesn't want to infect the aliens' culture with religion...

So one character is an atheist, and voices an atheist opinion. The prime directive also is part of Picard's indignance. For him to pretend to godhood is to lie to these aliens, to interfere with an alien culture. And we all know how badly religions can be when it comes to starting wars and changing cultures.

Likewise, when Lt. Riker is temporarily given Christ-like power to heal and raise the dead by Q he ultimately chooses not to use it to restore colonists (including children) killed and maimed by an accident. Instead, he relinquishes the ability and apologizes to Picard for nearly succumbing to immaturity. ...

So by not playing God he does the right thing, since after all no mortal can be a god, right? So that is neither aggressive to religion nor antireligious. Riker knows that he lacks the maturity of a god, therefore he successfully veers away from making the mistake that men are gods. I see no prejudice against religion in that at all.

Meanwhile, on the Enterprise-D we have exactly two people we know are married: Chief O'Brien, whose marriage is troubled, and Dr. Crusher, whose husband is dead and who sleeps around despite the tender presence of her tweener son. In fact, everyone sleeps around. Troi ultimately turns down Riker's marriage proposal; likewise Worf's proposal to his girlfriend (with whom he has had an out-of-wedlock son) is rejected. Career and jollies trump marital commitment. Man has evolved beyond such things ... except for, you know, typical human foibles such as lust, pride, fornication, murder, lying, etc.

...

Since there is plenty of lust, pride, fornication, murder and lying in the Bible I guess its okay for ST characters to act like normal human beings too. “Fornication” being a word mostly used by aggressive and prejudiced preachers, annoyed that other people are getting laid regularly.

While all this is going on, Star Trek V: The Final Frontier (featuring the TOS cast) postulates that the whole biblical Garden of Eden/Judeo-Christian God thing is a hoax perpetrated by an imprisoned alien evil entity who wants to use the faithful to enable it to escape.

The movie was complete dross. I hated it. The imprisoned monster was a dead ringer for Jehovah; wrathful and manipulative. If only the tribes of Israel had had photon torpedoes. Or maybe it was Satan masquerading as God? It isn’t the first time the Enterprize crew have brought down a false god. I remember a Greek god getting the treatment in the early ST.

It is only in Deep Space Nine that faith finally gets a little respect. Not that humans have rediscovered God, mind you. But the Bajorans, whose planet is strategically close to the wormhole the DS9 crew seeks to protect, practice a vaguely Eastern Star Wars-ish mysticism and Federation personnel are loath to offend them.

Moral: Organized religion is bunk but primitive shamanism is tolerable as long as it feels good and doesn't place any demands on your behavior.

So your main beef is that ST doesn’t big up the Christian religion. Shamanism is still a religion, and the Bajorans did have an organized religion, by the way, which was based on real entities within the Trekiverse, giving credibility to godlike beings. As for placing demands on behaviour I guess you might not remember the manipulation that these wormhole entities put the humans through, creating prophets and antiprophets.

Humans are predisposed to worship and have done so through the entirely of recorded history. The idea that mankind will suddenly somehow "grow out of it" is dated and a bit silly at this point.

I can see a bit of “prejudice and aggression” here towards atheists from you Seneschal. Some of humanity has already gone beyond supernatural explanations of the universe. Maybe not all will, but it is neither dated nor silly to break the strictures of religious dogma.

So, if Man does make it to the stars, travel through time, colonize the ocean floor, survive a global holocaust chances are pretty good he'll take his religions with him. And there's nothing wrong with your science fiction role-playing campaign reflecting that, if you want it to.

I agree. Theocracies make for ideal villains in SF scenarios, providing that not all religious NPCs are portrayed as Taliban like nutjobs, or aggressive and prejudiced preachers. Future religions can be a lot of fun for a GM to invent too. Especially taking trends in today’s religions and extrapolating them, or mashing two distinctly different religions together to make a strangely workable one.

http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/inconsistencies/religion.htm

Edited July 5, 2010 by Conrad

[Agentorange]

Leaving aside the whole Star Trek thing, it's worth pointing out that religions are very adaptable. Consider: at one time all christians believed that God created the earth in one week precisely ( thought he did have a day off ). each day being a standard 24 hour day. Now the rise of the various earth sciences and related disciplines has pretty much eploded that theory ( although it is still believed by some ). Many christians however take the view that the creation myth in genesis is a metaphor, a way of explaining the process in terms that people of that time could understand. That the underlying spiritual messages of the bible remain untouched and constant.

I see no reason why that kind of adaptation would not continue if man reached the stars or even if he found alien life.

The Church of Christ Spaceman ? Why not ?

[USAFguy]

Clearly religion (and the lack of it) are a sore subject...Hey, it's just like real life.

As a flawed Christian, I suggest dealing with it in a way that fits into 'the story' and in a way that the players and GM enjoy.

What are the consequences of putting religion into the setting...badly? Just unimaginable horror! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Star_Wars_Holiday_Special

Do you REALLY want to see the Middle Earth Christmas special where the Fellowship of the Ring has to track down and give him the REAL 'naughty and nice' list that Gollum snatched, to prove to Santa that Sauron's Christmas wish should NOT be fulfilled. (Yes, he wants "The One Ring"). Orcs, Trolls and reindeer....hilarity ensues.

Or "A little night in Jerusalem", where hero of this plane, "Elric of Nazareth" teams with the legendarily cursed 4th Wiseman in an attempt to rescue Elric's 3rd cousin on his mother's side from the Sanhedran (sp) and a backwoods Roman provincal Governor. Mistaken identity, prophecy and a brief appearance by the Knight of Swords. Hilarity ensues.

Ok...so if it fits, use it. If it doesn't fit....do it in a way that the players and GM enjoy.

My best,

Edited July 4, 2010 by USAFguy

[sdavies2720]

I see no reason why that kind of adaptation would not continue if man reached the stars or even if he found alien life.

The Church of Christ Spaceman ? Why not ?

I 'm sure we'd sprout a whole new generation of missionaries to convert the heathens.

[rpgstarwizard]

Wow! Religion being examined. Ialways have had religion in my SCIFI games. I am a very religious person, but nonmonotheist. So religion has been examined in many ways. Star Trek was not irreligious or antireligious, imho, but Roddenberry the creator was an agnostic, iirc. We have had all sorts of experiences of religion in Trav, Fasatrek, Alternity, Space Opera, FTL2448, etc. The problem comes when we define religion. If you believe in a certain book as fact and it has been disproven, in part or even whole, how do you react, or more importantly, how does the charcater react. "You mean the planet is not flat? Not supported on Pillars, etc?" (There was a book called "The World is Round" on which a race lives on a giant artifact planet that is so huge there is no rounding on the horizon.) Star Trek has examined religion often, with various settings. We have had all sorts of religious organizations both as villains and friends, even at times those at odds with the groups members has helped.

I have run CoC more as a modern horror games. less as the doom and gloom, and more as the mythos as less important. Religionis very important, and religious players often have an advantage. But in a scifi setting we can have three basic lines of thinging.

Areligious, where religion is not a factor. Antireligious, where religion is a superstition holding people back. And proreligious. The last one with groups I have pleyed with have usually been the prochurch type games. That held a truth and the players were warriors to convertthe ignorant heathens. These groups have often been run by individuals that seemed to have a strong religious bend and had difficulty accepting other ideas of reality. These quickly became DnD in space, fight evil priests and natives that worshipped evil gods that had to be destroyed. The church could do no wrong.

[Agentorange]

I 'm sure we'd sprout a whole new generation of missionaries to convert the heathens.

Probably would, but...that could be a two way process. Now there's plot twist if ever there was one.

Also consider this: if interstellar travel becomes cheap enough you'd probably get people doing a Mayflower, heading off into space to build utopia etc etc

[Agentorange]

I don't of necessity think that Religion and Science are incompatible. I'm pretty agnostic myself but as I've suggested religious passages could be re interpreted as metaphor or symbolism rather than literal truth. The poet Shelley ( i think ) either gave or attended a series of lectures where new scientific discoveries were discussed. Instead of seeing it as reducing the power of religion , he saw it as increasing the power of religion. As more and more of the way the world worked was revealed , he felt that it allowed us to see how subtle and wonderful the intricacies of God's creation were rather than lessening them....

So science and religion could march off to the stars together quite plausibly

As an aside I always wondered if the old Prog rock band Yes were influenced by the Shelley story in the title of one of their songs : The Revealing Science Of God

[rust]

So science and religion could march off to the stars together quite plausibly

Of course. This reminds me of a German series of science fiction novelettes where the ship's

science officer usually is a member of a religious order that specializes in the search for new

knowledge, somewhat like the scientific "wing" of the real world Jesuits.

[seneschal]

The Jesuits were, in fact, among the first scientists. The whole Galileo trial wasn't so much a battle between religion and science as a matter of tenured professors squelching a researcher who didn't hold to the current scientific orthodoxy.

Whew! Sounds like I ruffled the Lizard Wizard's scales. But I stand by my analysis; Star Trek overall had a subtle but consistent bias against faith in general and Judeo-Christian religion in particular, not unlike other American TV programs of the era. But arguing about it isn't going to help the OP with his campaign. My point was that in building his campaign society, religion need not be ignored or vilified.

[rust]

By the way, there is a brilliant short story about a Jesuit astronomer who accompanies an early

interstellar exploration mission and discovers that the Star of Bethlehem probably was a super-

nova that destroyed an entire highly developed civilization - unfortunately I do neither remember

the English title nor the author's name.

[rpgstarwizard]

Funny, what I see is an issue of perception, ones sees two faces, another a vase. It is clear that Roddenberry did feel religion was not important it is also obvious that religion WAS explored in the various Treks

From wikepedia," Although Roddenberry was raised as a Southern Baptist, he instead considered himself a humanist and agnostic. He saw religion as the cause of many wars and human suffering.[18] Brannon Braga has said that Roddenberry made it known to the writers of Star Trek and Star Trek: The Next Generation that religion and mystical thinking were not to be included, and that in Roddenberry's vision of Earth's future, everyone was an atheist and better for it.[19] However, Roddenberry was clearly not punctilious in this regard, and some religious references exist in various episodes of both series under his watch. The original series episodes "Bread and Circuses", "Who Mourns for Adonais?", and "The Ultimate Computer", and the Star Trek: The Next Generation episodes "Data's Day" and "The Next Phase" are examples. On the other hand, "Metamorphosis", "The Empath", "Who Watches the Watchers", and several others reflect somewhat, his Humanist/Agnostic views."

As for particular religions especially JudeoChristian and other monotheistic beliefs we have a modern groups of "terrorists" in america that believe they have right to harm via word of their deity. It makes for an interesting setting. Religious wars ala the "Handmaids tale". I once ran a Psi World Campaign where southern religious types would burn captured PSI's pior to Nascar and football events. When I have seen religion, most only see the Monotheist belief structures. Any attempt to bring other belief systems in often cause those that have certain strong faiths to complain loudly. My advice is tread softly and sensitively.

[seneschal]

By the way, there is a brilliant short story about a Jesuit astronomer who accompanies an early

interstellar exploration mission and discovers that the Star of Bethlehem probably was a super-

nova that destroyed an entire highly developed civilization - unfortunately I do neither remember

the English title nor the author's name.

It was "The Star" by Arthur C. Clarke, a sci-fi author who wore his atheism on his sleeve. I've read more than one otherwise excellent short story or novel where Clarke brings his narrative to a screeching halt so that he can bash religion in general and Christianity in particular ... again (just in case the reader didn't get the point the first time). The scientist in "The Star" has a crisis of faith because the acheological remains, while confirming events in the New Testament, cause him to question the goodness of God. Compared to Clarke, Jean Luc Picard is a Bible-thumper.

But we don't want our discussion of how religion is handled in science fiction to derail the OP's thread. Clarke represents one end of the spectrum, C.S. Lewis ("Out of the Silent Planet" triology) the other. But neither of them ignored religion when worldbuilding.

[dragonewt]

As an alternative to me bringing Godwin's Law into effect, does anyone have any thoughts on the Cthulhu Rising classic SF monograph? - Review of Cthulhu Rising at Stargazer's World.

[rust]

... does anyone have any thoughts on the Cthulhu Rising classic SF monograph?

Yes. If one uses it together with Jovian Nightmares and the truckload of material from the Cthulhu Rising website and

ignores the mythos parts, it may well be the best and most complete science fiction setting available for any of the

BRP-based roleplaying games - highly recommended.

[JarrethSynn]

Interesting thoughts. I never planned to ignore religion. I just wanted it to be explained with science. But allow the option of certain planets and species to treat it as a religion if they wanted. I guess I should have said I wanted to keep supernatural elements out of it so to speak, but allow an introduction of them of sorts. If that makes sense. But I see quite a bit of sci-fi using religion or being religious. Firefly having the preacher character, the Force in Starwars and the mention of Hell, and the classic man vs. God in so many sci-fi movies and literature.

[AndrewMorton]

Interesting thoughts. I never planned to ignore religion. I just wanted it to be explained with science. But allow the option of certain planets and species to treat it as a religion if they wanted. I guess I should have said I wanted to keep supernatural elements out of it so to speak, but allow an introduction of them of sorts. If that makes sense. But I see quite a bit of sci-fi using religion or being religious. Firefly having the preacher character, the Force in Starwars and the mention of Hell, and the classic man vs. God in so many sci-fi movies and literature.

I'm not a religious person myself but I would not exclude religion from a Sci-fi game. Belief in mythical supernatural entities that allegedly dictate rules that effect the way life forms choose to behave can add a lot of entertainment to a game. You only have to look at how believers of the big three mythical, supernatural entities here on Earth carry on to see how ridiculous religion can be. And as has been said before supernatural belief and ignorance often precedes science - so there would be room for both outlooks in a big universe.

Actually, games are probably the best and safest place for religion - at least real people don't get hurt when when an argument breaks out between the followers of the 'Gourd' and those that follow the 'sandal'.

[Mysterioso]

As an alternative to me bringing Godwin's Law into effect, does anyone have any thoughts on the Cthulhu Rising classic SF monograph? - Review of Cthulhu Rising at Stargazer's World.

You might have better luck starting a new thread on how Cthulhu Rising would work for BRP science fiction.

[dragonewt]

These source books might provide some useful Sci-Fi material. They are for "D100", and so might work well with BRP:

• No Man's Land - From SSDC, Inc.
  
• Silent Wars - From SSDC, Inc.
  
• Other SSDC, Inc. Material
  

More on Battlelords here: SSDC Battlelords.

Edited July 7, 2010 by dragonewt

[Conrad]

The Jesuits were, in fact, among the first scientists. The whole Galileo trial wasn't so much a battle between religion and science as a matter of tenured professors squelching a researcher who didn't hold to the current scientific orthodoxy..

Don't forget the Moors and their scientific search to reveal their god's design in the universe.

I don't hold to your rose tinted view of the Galileo trial there Seneschal, after all professors don't refer their researchers to the Inquisition or put them under permanent house arrest.

You might want to get an education in history before you go off painting theocratic tyrants as tenured professors.

Whew! Sounds like I ruffled the Lizard Wizard's scales. But I stand by my analysis; Star Trek overall had a subtle but consistent bias against faith in general and Judeo-Christian religion in particular, not unlike other American TV programs of the era. But arguing about it isn't going to help the OP with his campaign. My point was that in building his campaign society, religion need not be ignored or vilified.

It seems that you are ruffled a bit too by ST's not placing Christianity to the fore. But it wasn't biased against faith in general. Religions were given a place in the stories, but ST isn't a vehicle for evangelism.

While I agree that religion can be an interesting part of a far future background, if someone wants to ignore it, then they can do so without the Spanish Inquisition paying a visit. I can see why some gamers steer clear of real world religions and their overly sensitive fanatics.

Edited September 14, 2010 by Conrad
It was necessary to correct Senschal's lack of history knowledge.

[seneschal]

Conrad, nobody but you mentioned the Spanish Inquisition. I don't know you, your personal beliefs, or your lifestyle. And I haven't attacked you. But you've come close to being personally insulting. That's entirely unnecessary.

The problem isn't that Star Trek failed to provide Sunday school lessons. It is that the show clearly reflects Roddenberry's anti-Christian bias, as confirmed by the wikipedia article quoted by rpgstarwizard. This puts the show's tone and subtle message at odds with the cherished beliefs of 80 percent of the American people. And in case we forget, Star Trek is an American TV show. It wasn't produced for a post-Christian European or Chinese Buddhist audience, although those folks might get to watch it, too. It isn't bigotry to point out Star Trek's godless worldview, any more than it is bigotry to point out Star Wars' rather Buddhist outlook. Examining either is appropriate to a discussion of how to create a science fiction society.