Oslira

[Jose]

Hello people, a friend of mine want to play a grazelander follower of Oslira. Can he use Engizi as a template? Or has Oslira different spells?

Thanks 

 

 

[metcalph]

23 minutes ago, Jose said:

Hello people, a friend of mine want to play a grazelander follower of Oslira. Can he use Engizi as a template? Or has Oslira different spells?

Oslira probably has one or two different spells and a whole host of different associated cults.

But I think the Grazer river cult is probably better known as Jaldon's Wrong (following a recent facebook post).  Something like, when the remnants of the Pure Horse People first dared to enter Dragon Pass, they were visited by the Ghost of Jaldon Toothmaker who mocked them and vowed he would hunt down and kill anybody who entered the Pass.  But the River Goddess in their new lands shielded them from his depradations.  Since that time, the Grazers have always known the river as Jaldon's Wrong River leaving outsiders confused about what exactly Jaldon was wrong about.

The rune spell could probably something exotic (and limited) like protecting the worshipper and followers from being detected by any worshipper of Waha or Jaldon Toothmaker for a whole day.

Edited September 27, 2022 by metcalph

[David Scott]

Until the cults book comes out, I'd do as you suggested and use Engizi as a template.

Oslira has some differences in Rune magic from Engizi:

Breathe Air/Water, Command Crocodile, Command Fish, Control Flood, Dismiss Water Elemental (any size), Flood, Fireshield, Strongnet, Summon Naiad, Summon Crocodile, Summon Water Elemental (any size), and Water Walk. 

Varnaga the Crocodile God serves Oslira as her spirit of reprisal (hence all the Croc Rune magic). A River priest's allied spirit can be a fish, crocodile, or water elemental.

Associate cults (some clearly depending on location)

• Biselenslib the Heron Goddess
• Black Eel - a tributary
• Erinflarth - a tributary
• Everina the Rice Goddess
• Jadarenasa the Mother Loon (river folk only) - check out Awaken Loon in RBM!
• Lodril (husband)
• Pelora
• Orlanth Thunderous (Dragon Pass) - source
• River Horse
• Shargash (lover)
• Yelm
• Yestendos the Reed Boy (husband-son)
• Other River Cults

[JDM]

The draft Gods of Glorantha included the following snippet:

The source of the Oslir River is in Dragon Pass, held by the Grazeland Pony Breeders to be in the Green Dragon Vale and by the Tarshites to be near Wintertop. 

[Jose]

2 hours ago, David Scott said:

Until the cults book comes out, I'd do as you suggested and use Engizi as a template.

Oslira has some differences in Rune magic from Engizi:

Breathe Air/Water, Command Crocodile, Command Fish, Control Flood, Dismiss Water Elemental (any size), Flood, Fireshield, Strongnet, Summon Naiad, Summon Crocodile, Summon Water Elemental (any size), and Water Walk. 

Varnaga the Crocodile God serves Oslira as her spirit of reprisal (hence all the Croc Rune magic). A River priest's allied spirit can be a fish, crocodile, or water elemental.

Associate cults (some clearly depending on location)

• Biselenslib the Heron Goddess
• Black Eel - a tributary
• Erinflarth - a tributary
• Everina the Rice Goddess
• Jadarenasa the Mother Loon (river folk only) - check out Awaken Loon in RBM!
• Lodril (husband)
• Pelora
• Orlanth Thunderous (Dragon Pass) - source
• River Horse
• Shargash (lover)
• Yelm
• Yestendos the Reed Boy (husband-son)
• Other River Cults

Thanks David, I am surprised about Orlanth being associated but my friend will be happy with that because his party has orlanthi in it. 

 

Thanks again

[David Scott]

52 minutes ago, Jose said:

I am surprised about Orlanth being associated but my friend will be happy with that because his party has orlanthi in it. 

Orlanth Thunderous's rains are the source of the Oslira...

[Jose]

17 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Orlanth Thunderous's rains are the source of the Oslira...

It will be a lot easier to recover rune points participating in Orlanth holy ceremonies while part of  an orlanthi group. 

[JRE]

I would be more strict, as Orlanth being associated with Oslira in Tarsh or Holay does not mean Oslira is an associate of Orlanth in Sartar. Or that an Orlanthi near Alkoth will be welcome to worship in an Oslira temple. Those are social aspects, rather than religious, but still important as you cannot worship if you are not allowed in. 

I use a rule of thumb. If it is likely there will be a small shrine to the associate in the temple, I allow associate worship. Otherwise, no. However if you are doing a globe trotting campaign, then recovering rune magic is more MGF than making it difficult, except when you want to stress the player and the character.

Engizi is a sure bet, however.

[David Scott]

Orlanth Thunderous is Likely an associate of Oslira in the Grazelands, and Old Tarsh (where the rains fall at the headwaters), but as soon as it hits Tarsh, that's likely it.

A major temple has one associate cult, so I'd stick it in Queen's Post and make the associate Orlanth Thunderous. It would be easy to put Orlanth Thunderous Shrines high up on the sides of High Meadow (or Green Dragon Valley) and Hiia's Valley.

 

[Joerg]

3 hours ago, David Scott said:

Orlanth Thunderous's rains are the source of the Oslira...

Mythically, that's not quite what happened. Other than Creek-Stream River and a few others, a river's source is in the Deep Sea, and the Headwaters are as far as they went on their invasions of the dry lands.

The Oslir river may be one of those few others, as Orlanth broke the back of Blue Dragon River, presumably by tossing another dragon's back across it after slaying Sh'harkarzeel. (Ripping apart Aroka may have been independent of that...) The Oslir re-oriented to reach its source through the White Sea.

(In a way, Orlanth might be Oslira's father by Sshorga. Or at least her midwife.)

Even during the Flood Age, her headwaters remained inside the dry portion between the two standing waves that united into her sea north of Saird. After the flood subsided, the goddess returned to her river bed.

Then the glacier arrived, Oslira was captured inside Manarlarvus's dome, and released by Chaos.

Then Sky River Titan ordered all rivers to direct their flow to the Chaos Void. All did as well as they could.

Collecting the Helerian waters may have been the Godtime rivers' job all the time. While the rivers progressed (and thereby flowed) inland, I understand them as tendrils of waters flowing uphill on the outside and back into the seas on the inside.

Sending the Helerian waters down into the seas may have been Engizi's command.

 

Physically, the headwaters of a river inside Time is where the Helerian and Gatan waters leave the bosom of the earth to gather in a pool or rivulet, the headwaters which are the target of the River Horse. In case of the Oslir springs on the flanks of Arrowmound, I suggest that much of that water really is melt-off from the glaciers atop those mountains.

[hipsterinspace]

5 hours ago, David Scott said:

Orlanth Thunderous's rains are the source of the Oslira...

Wouldn't that still be Heler, even if Orlanth Thunderous is the intercessor for the rain?

[David Scott]

2 hours ago, hipsterinspace said:

Wouldn't that still be Heler, even if Orlanth Thunderous is the intercessor for the rain?

Heler is a minor cult, and mostly worshipped through Orlanth Thunderous. As an associate of Orlanth,  he teaches Rain to Orlanth Thunderous.

So Heler is Orlanth's rain. Orlanth Thunderous is the associate cult of Oslira, not Heler.

It's like Orlanth's Lightning is Lightning Boy, another minor cult.

[David Scott]

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

Physically, the headwaters of a river inside Time is where the Helerian and Gatan waters leave the bosom of the earth to gather in a pool or rivulet, the headwaters which are the target of the River Horse. In case of the Oslir springs on the flanks of Arrowmound, I suggest that much of that water really is melt-off from the glaciers atop those mountains.

I'm just repeating what's written in the Oslira cult writeup in the upcoming Cults of Glorantha book.

Looking at the Guide's maps I can see a number of tributaries that form the main catchment as the Oslir as it reaches Kordos island. Arrowmound is just one of the sources (and only first order). The two main ones appear to be from the area of Muse Roost and The Smoking Ruins (both second order).

[hipsterinspace]

43 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Heler is a minor cult, and mostly worshipped through Orlanth Thunderous. As an associate of Orlanth,  he teaches Rain to Orlanth Thunderous.

So Heler is Orlanth's rain. Orlanth Thunderous is the associate cult of Oslira, not Heler.

It's like Orlanth's Lightning is Lightning Boy, another minor cult.

Is Lightning Boy cosmologically independent from Orlanth in the same way? As far as I understand, Heler may be a rather small cult in Dragon Pass, but is nonetheless still an independent cult (and entity) with a larger presence in Esrolia and Maniria. Maybe it has changed in the gods book but, unlike the spell Lightning, Rain is only granted to Storm Voices and only as an associate spell through Heler in the core book.

Edited September 27, 2022 by hipsterinspace

[Eff]

Grammatically, it makes little sense for Heler to give Orlanth the Rain spell if Heler is a component of Orlanth, I must say. The language used with Heler and the Rain spell, unlike the Lightning spell and Yavor-Lightning-Boy, implies independence from Orlanth on some level. But perhaps there's a more Freudian assumption here? 

[David Scott]

11 hours ago, hipsterinspace said:

Is Lightning Boy cosmologically independent from Orlanth in the same way?

As a spirit cult yes, anyone can worship him. He has his own mountain home in Prax (see GtG 453)

[hipsterinspace]

15 hours ago, David Scott said:

As a spirit cult yes, anyone can worship him. He has his own mountain home in Prax (see GtG 453)

This still seems to be a clear difference in kind. Heler is a deity, however minor in the third age, with an independent cult and separate mythology and cosmology. Lightning Boy is a spirit cult and constituent part of Orlanth. Rain is Heler, Heler is rain (along with some other things). If rainwater is the source of the Oslira, and especially if Rain is the associate rune spell granted, then it would seem apparent that the associate deity should be Heler: the rivers are Heler’s children returning to the sea.

It seems at odds with what Jeff explicitly said regarding the relative importance of Heler vs Lightning Boy.

Edited September 29, 2022 by hipsterinspace

[Joerg]

Heler is an important ancestor in the Sea Tribe, but also a lost ancestor, his connection to the heart of the sea severed (possibly several times). He lost his salt, completely, and much of his worshipper base among his descendents, the Triolini.

Lightning Boy (or Yavor Lightning, if you want to use the names from Thunder Rebels) was a celestial martial deity who got conquered by Orlanth before getting a chance to shine in a(nother) major way. He may have participated as Shargash/Jagrekriand's missile in the encounter that brought down Umath. His brand of Aetheric energy is lost to the non-aeolic skies (the Fire Tribe) in the same way that Heler's waters are lost the seas. Shargash may still have thunder, but no lightning.

[David Scott]

15 hours ago, hipsterinspace said:

It seems at odds with what Jeff explicitly said regarding the relative importance of Heler vs Lightning Boy.

Myself, I don't see much of a difference between a step-up between tiny and teeny-tiny cult / sub cults. Both are part of Orlanth's make up and represented in art together.

 

[Eff]

It would be very strange if the cosmology of the setting, like the question of where rain comes from, is dependent on matters of popular opinion like cult size. Should we be taking cult size as a deterministic phenomenon, then? People don't generally follow Heler because it's cosmologically true that Heler is an appendage or accoutrement of Orlanth like Lightning Boy, without much if any independence, and the rain effectively comes from Orlanth Thunderous rather than Orlanth having intercessory power with his companion/partner Heler to bring rain, or authority as ruler of the storms, or whatever? These kinds of questions are certainly worth asking, in my opinion, just for a clearer understanding of what plots are possible (within the "canon" Glorantha). 

[Jeff]

Heler is atmospheric water - Rain. He's not the Cloud God - that's Orlanth Thunderous. It is worth noting that Heler does not have Cloud Call (he gets that from Orlanth Thunderous). So he's usually treated as an accoutrement of Orlanth, like Lightning, or the Sandals of Darkness, or the Mist Cloud. Orlanth is often depicted with a small blue god or goddess around him - the embodiment of Rain.

Rain comes naturally when you have a lot of clouds gather together, so if you call on Orlanth Thunderous, you will probably get rain as a by product. If your ABSOLUTELY NEED to have rain, you call on the Rain God. But it works much better if the clouds are already there, and for that you need Orlanth (although you can get a centimetre or two even with no clouds).

In Sartar, most people just call on Orlanth Thunderous and then ask the Thunder God to order Heler to appear. But you can worship Heler directly, and a few people do. However, for most people, it makes far more sense to worship him as an associated deity of Orlanth Thunderous.

Among the Triolini, Heler is viewed as a tragic figure. The half-brother of Magasta, Heler invaded the Middle Air but was defeated by Orlanth and submitted to the Air God. Now he serves Orlanth instead of Magasta. The Triolini probably tell far more stories about Heler than humans do, but they do not offer him cult - he serves an enemy now. 

[JRE]

My reply to Eff is that it actually depends on who is asking the question, as their own interaction with the Gods will be colored by their perspective, as in Glorantha that perspective matters. As Jeff says above, most Orlanthi will just ask Orlanth to order his vassal, Heler, but there will be no interaction with Heler. A Heler cultist, no matter how rare they may be, will probably not access Heler the servant of Orlanth  (or Orlanth, Heler's master), but will access Heler, the invader of the Sky. The end result will be similar, but the Godtime event linked, and the interaction with the deity will be different, and both should be accesible with the right knowledge.

We may say it is subjective, but as they link different Godtime events, they are both true at the same time.

That also explains why the same deity can be a minor servant in one area, and a major god in other, depending on what myths, and therefore what parts of the Godtime they can access. That will also limit or expand the magic they can get from worship.

Edited September 29, 2022 by JRE

[Eff]

2 minutes ago, JRE said:

My reply to Eff is that it actually depends on who is asking the question, as their own interaction with the Gods will be colored by their perspective, as in Glorantha that perspective matters. As Jeff says above, most Orlanthi will just ask Orlanth to order his vassal, Heler, but there will be no interaction with Heler. A Heler cultist, no matter how rare they may be, will probably not access Heler the servant of Orlanth  (or Orlanth, Heler's master), but will access Heler, the invader of the Sky. The end result will be similar, but the Godtime event linked, and the interaction with the deity will be different, and both should be accesible with the right knowledge.

We may say it is subjective, but as they link different Godtime events, they are both true at the same time.

That also explains why the same deity can be a minor servant in one area, and a major god in other, depending on what myths, and therefore what parts of the Godtime they can access. That will also limit or expand the magic they can get from worship.

Oh, I'm interested in what, if any, "canon" answer there is, because I have my own answer already that I use in my games and my writing, but whenever I get around to producing Jonstown Compendium materials, I want to make sure they don't recklessly reject the canonical metaphysics of the setting and lead to confusion. 🙂

[Nick Brooke]

But confusion is so much more enjoyable! Wouldn't you rather needlessly multiply entities, for the sheer joy of it, than take a razor to your creations?

[Eff]

4 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

But confusion is so much more enjoyable! Wouldn't you rather needlessly multiply entities, for the sheer joy of it, than take a razor to your creations?

I think that in such an entirely hypothetical situation, it would be better to make a clean cut with a razor that excised entirely, rather than many such cuts, or at least as few cuts as necessary to excise any such needless multiplication of entities. Measure twice, cut once, etc.