Shields and -30% Parry Penalties

[Stan Shinn]

In the new BRP, let's say a fighter with a full sword and shield is in combat, and this round the fighter has already attempted a parry (so future parries would be at -30%).

Then an arrow flies from the sky toward the fighter. Normally a full shield has a 30% chance to block a missile, but do shields (when used to block missile fire) still incur the parry penalty? If so, the shield would have zero chance of blocking the missile, whereas if the subsequent parry penalty only applies to melee, you'd still have the normal 30% chance.

Below are the relevant rules text, but neither explicitly calls out if the -30% parry penalty applies during missile fire. 

Both sections also refer to the shield's base chance, but I'm not sure what that means in this context -- is there a base chance versus a modified chance or something?

Parrying Missiles Requires a Shield

Quote

p. 125 "Under most circumstances, your character can only parry missile weapons with a shield, at the shield’s base chance (see Shields and Missile Fire, page 153)."

Shield Chance to Block Missile Weapons

Quote

p. 153 "As described on page 132, while used in hand-to-hand combat a half or small shield has a base 15% chance to block a missile, a full shield has a 30% chance to block a missile, and a large shield has a 60% chance. If your character kneels behind it, a full shield has a 60% chance to block a missile, and a large shield has a 90% chance. Only successes are blocked; special successes and critical hits are assumed to strike their intended targets. If your character is trying to parry a very fast missile weapon, such as an energy weapon or firearm, they have only the shield’s base chance as the chance of success."

My guess is that the -30% parry penalty applies to all parries in melee, and does not apply to shields blocking missile fire, but I wanted to confirm if I am correct. Thanks in advance!

[Mugen]

This is confusing.

The way I read it, you can parry missiles with any shield at your skill%, but you also have a fixed chance to block missiles using a full or large shield, and that chance is increased if you kneel behind it.

My understanding is also that a block is not a parry, and therefore not affected by the cumulative modifier, but parries can be affected.

If I'm correct, if your Shield skill is > block chance, you can parry until the modifier makes it drop below block chance. Then, you'll have to use the fixed block chance.

But I may be wrong.

Edited April 24, 2023 by Mugen

[DreadDomain]

The way I read this, with a shield you have three options against missile weapon:

1) Parry with the shield (p.125) at base chance (which for most of the shields are 15%, 5% for bucklers plus skill category modifier). This is a parry and the 30% penalty applied - if it is not your first attempt, I effectively cannot parry 

2) Leave it to the shield's passive coverage (p.153). Bigger shields cover a larger number of areas so have more chances to protect. If you use hit locations, you don't need to roll since the shield table (p.178) tells you which location is covered. It acts like armor and the parry penalty do not apply.

3) Hide behind your shield (p.153). This is a subset of 2 above except that you actively hide/kneel behind your shield. If you use hit location, I'd say one extra location is covered. It acts like armor and the parry penalty do not apply.

[Stan Shinn]

26 minutes ago, DreadDomain said:

The way I read this, with a shield you have three options against missile weapon:

1) Parry with the shield (p.125) at base chance (which for most of the shields are 15%, 5% for bucklers plus skill category modifier). This is a parry and the 30% penalty applied - if it is not your first attempt, I effectively cannot parry 

2) Leave it to the shield's passive coverage (p.153). Bigger shields cover a larger number of areas so have more chances to protect. If you use hit locations, you don't need to roll since the shield table (p.178) tells you which location is covered. It acts like armor and the parry penalty do not apply.

3) Hide behind your shield (p.153). This is a subset of 2 above except that you actively hide/kneel behind your shield. If you use hit location, I'd say one extra location is covered. It acts like armor and the parry penalty do not apply.

This is a fantastic explanation! Thanks so much; I'll go with this interpretation unless someone finds something more authoritative that would have it work differently 🙂

[DreadDomain]

10 hours ago, Stan Shinn said:

This is a fantastic explanation! Thanks so much; I'll go with this interpretation unless someone finds something more authoritative that would have it work differently 🙂

That is how I read it because they use base chance on p.125 and base chance  is clearly defined on page 4. Having said that, it would mean that it would never make sense to choose option 1 as the chances to succeed would always be lower than option 2 (or 3). Clearly, I must be wrong!

[Saki]

My reading is that the missile parry base chance fully replaces your normal shield skill percentage, but otherwise works exactly the same as a normal parry.

[el_octogono]

I used this rule un Elric! And I think the wording was a bit different. I used those Base Percentages as "passive defense" only against missile attacks, even if you had a lower skill level.

[DreadDomain]

6 hours ago, Saki said:

My reading is that the missile parry base chance fully replaces your normal shield skill percentage, but otherwise works exactly the same as a normal parry.

I am now convinced of it and base chance is an unfortunate choice of words. It would probably be less confusing to say "Under most circumstances, your character can only parry block missile weapons with a shield, at the shield’s base chance (see Shields and Missile Fire, page 153)" and leave the explanation on p.153.

2 hours ago, el_octogono said:

I used this rule un Elric! And I think the wording was a bit different. I used those Base Percentages as "passive defense" only against missile attacks, even if you had a lower skill level.

Since the chances are fixed and not based on skills, I agree it must be a passive defense. Furthermore, except for p.125, they mention blocking missile weapon and parrying melee attack (see p.132). This solidify my reading that the 30% penalty does not apply. In short, in my explanation above, option 1 does not exist:

1) deleted

2) Leave it to the shield's passive coverage (p.153). Bigger shields cover a larger number of areas so have more chances to protect. If you use hit locations, you don't need to roll since the shield table (p.178) tells you which location is covered. It acts like armor and the parry penalty do not apply.

3) Hide behind your shield (p.153). This is a subset of 2 above except that you actively hide/kneel behind your shield. If you use hit location, I'd say one extra location is covered. It acts like armor and the parry penalty do not apply.

[g33k]

On 4/25/2023 at 1:10 PM, DreadDomain said:

I am now convinced of it and base chance is an unfortunate choice of words. It would probably be less confusing to say "Under most circumstances, your character can only parry block missile weapons with a shield, at the shield’s base chance (see Shields and Missile Fire, page 153)" and leave the explanation on p.153.

Since the chances are fixed and not based on skills, I agree it must be a passive defense. Furthermore, except for p.125, they mention blocking missile weapon and parrying melee attack (see p.132). This solidify my reading that the 30% penalty does not apply. In short, in my explanation above, option 1 does not exist:

1) deleted

2) Leave it to the shield's passive coverage (p.153). Bigger shields cover a larger number of areas so have more chances to protect. If you use hit locations, you don't need to roll since the shield table (p.178) tells you which location is covered. It acts like armor and the parry penalty do not apply.

3) Hide behind your shield (p.153). This is a subset of 2 above except that you actively hide/kneel behind your shield. If you use hit location, I'd say one extra location is covered. It acts like armor and the parry penalty do not apply.

Additional number of hit-locations covered should depend on shield size; big "tower" shields, if you cower behind your tower, should provide very-nearly-complete coverage.  These are known at least as far back as Mycenean Greece.

#2 is entirely passive; you aren't *doing* anything:  you're just "tanking" the hits.

#3 appears to me as a form of "dodge."  If you've already parried this round, you should face a -30% penalty for taking an additional defensive action.  Then, you "tank" an arbitrary number of missiles (without additional -30% penalties, as you're just crouching there... not *acting* so there's no per-missile "parrying" skill roll).  BUT I would apply the standard 5-Rank penalty for doing "something else" while in-combat (e.g. dismount, drawing weapon, etc; in this case, kneeling in a tower-cower).

[Stan Shinn]

On 4/25/2023 at 3:10 PM, DreadDomain said:

Since the chances are fixed and not based on skills, I agree it must be a passive defense. Furthermore, except for p.125, they mention blocking missile weapon and parrying melee attack (see p.132). This solidify my reading that the 30% penalty does not apply. In short, in my explanation above, option 1 does not exist:

I agree with you after looking over the text and all the comments here. So I'll add in something to replace the deleted #1 -- parrying with a weapon. So here's the parry/block rules summarized I think:

1) Use a Weapon to Parry. Use a weapon which has the 'parry' ability, using your weapon parry skill. Incurs a -30% penalty for each parry after the 1st. (I think there is a martial arts parry ability as well?).

2) Use a Shield to Block (p.153). Bigger shields cover a larger number of areas so have more chances to protect. If you use hit locations, you don't need to roll since the shield table (p.178) tells you which location is covered. It acts like armor and the parry penalty does not apply. Unlike a weapon parry, a shield can block missile weapons.

3) Hide Behind Your Shield (p.153). This is a subset of 2 above except that you actively hide/kneel behind your shield. If you use hit location, I'd say one extra location is covered. It acts like armor and the parry penalty do not apply.

 

[g33k]

6 hours ago, Stan Shinn said:

I agree with you after looking over the text and all the comments here. So I'll add in something to replace the deleted #1 -- parrying with a weapon. So here's the parry/block rules summarized I think:

1) Use a Weapon to Parry. Use a weapon which has the 'parry' ability, using your weapon parry skill. Incurs a -30% penalty for each parry after the 1st. (I think there is a martial arts parry ability as well?).

Typically, one cannot parry an arrow with a weapon.

Some settings and genre-tropes may have exceptions.

[Saki]

there is no difference between blocking and parrying.  Parrying and blocking are used interchangably in the text, and parrying is defined as using a shield or weapon to parry or block.  The shield skill clarifies that all shield blocks follow exactly the same rules as parrying.  

 

There is no scenario 2 or 3.  There is no passive blocking.

 

The only thing you can do with a shield (unless using the Slung Shield Rule) is actively parry with it.  You parry melee attacks using the shield's skill level.  You parry ranged attacks using a static percentage based on shield size and if you're kneeling behind it.  Regardless of which you are doing, parries past the first take the 30% penalty. 

[Stan Shinn]

1 hour ago, Saki said:

The only thing you can do with a shield (unless using the Slung Shield Rule) is actively parry with it.  You parry melee attacks using the shield's skill level.  You parry ranged attacks using a static percentage based on shield size and if you're kneeling behind it.  Regardless of which you are doing, parries past the first take the 30% penalty. 

This makes sense! Thank you. Here's my updated summary of how things work:

To defend against weapon attacks, you can parry using either a weapon (if it has the 'parry' trait), a shield, or in some cases, your body (if you have a martial arts skill). In all cases when you parry, each parry beyond the first suffers a cumulative -30% penalty. Parry is sometimes called a block but these terms are used interchangeably.

To parry melee attacks, you can use a parry weapon or a shield. If using a shield to parry in melee, you use your skill rating for that shield. If you use the shield to parry a missile attack, instead of using your shield skill rating, you use a static percentage based on the shield size.  Full and large shields have the additional benefit that If your character kneels behind it, it has a 60% chance to block a missile, and a large shield has a 90% chance. Using a shield to defend against missile attacks still count as a parry and incurs the -30% cumulative penalty for each parry beyond the first. 

Is that correct?

[Saki]

That is my understanding of how it works, yes.

[NickMiddleton]

 

It would be nice if the Shield tables in the equipment section made explicit use of the terms "half or small", "full" and "large" for the shields, rather than leaving one to infer them... 

Just to throw the cat amongst the pigeons... my interpretation of the rules on Page 153:

Quote

As described on page 132, while used in hand-to-hand combat a half or small shield has a base 15% chance to block a missile, a full shield has a 30% chance to block a missile, and a large shield has a 60% chance. If your character kneels behind it, a full shield has a 60% chance to block a missile, and a large shield has a 90% chance. Only successes are blocked; special successes and critical hits are assumed to strike their intended targets. If your character is trying to parry a very fast missile weapon, such as an energy weapon or firearm, they have only the shield’s base chance as the chance of success.

and page 132:

Quote

Your character parries melee attacks with their shield just as they would a hand weapon. Against missile weapons, a half or small shield has a base 15% chance to block a missile, a full shield has a 30% chance to block a missile, and a large shield has a 60% chance. If your character kneels behind it, a full shield has a 60% chance to block a missile, and a large shield offers a 90% chance. These values are used in place of your character’s skill rating.

Use Case One: Against a melee attack. Parry with Shield using Shield skill. Multiple parry penalty applies.

Use Case Two: Against a low velocity missile. Parry with Shield using Shield Skill but possibly with a bonus if the base chance boost from page 125 increases skill (e.g. Kite versus a thrown Axe is +45%). Multiple parry penalty applies.

Use Case Three: Against a high velocity missile. Parry with Shield using table listed base chances only. Multiple parry penalty applies.

Use Case Four: Hunker down behind shield. Shield has a flat chance to block ALL normal missile successes, but has no effect on special or critical missile successes. Multiple parry penalty does not apply.

The problem comes about because it Elric! (from where much of this rules text, but not all of it, comes), one could not Parry missiles at all. There was passive blocking, but Parry was only possible against melee attacks. Ah well.

[g33k]

2 hours ago, NickMiddleton said:

...

Use Case Three: Against a high velocity missile. Parry with Shield using table listed base chances only. Multiple parry penalty applies.

...

This appears to lead to the "use case" of somebody actively-parrying against high-velocity missiles (including bullets) coming at them from multiple directions.

Which -- unless it's a supers-level (or comparable) game, seems to me to be absurd on the face of it.

 

[NickMiddleton]

1 hour ago, g33k said:

This appears to lead to the "use case" of somebody actively-parrying against high-velocity missiles (including bullets) coming at them from multiple directions.

Which -- unless it's a supers-level (or comparable) game, seems to me to be absurd on the face of it.

You have a 5-20% chance to parry ONCE: the second Parry will be at -30, so below zero chance of succeeding (remember, skill is NOT applicable in this case, it’s purely about the size of the shield). So a 1/20 - 1/5 chance that the shield happens to be in the right place to foul ONE high velocity missile attack.

Edited April 28, 2023 by NickMiddleton

[radmonger]

1 hour ago, g33k said:

This appears to lead to the "use case" of somebody actively-parrying against high-velocity missiles (including bullets) coming at them from multiple directions.

That's not specific to multiple attackers; in reality a ballistic shield would be completely useless against a single guy shooting you in the back.

I don't thing BRP is intended to be the kind of game where you can closely parse the wording of the rules, apply them mechanically, and get a result that is either especially interesting or realistic. instead, it's a gm-driven simulationist game. The gm has to first understand what is going on, and then express that in rules terms. The mechanics are just there to allow players to get on the same page without having to read the gm's mind. 

In some circumstances, actively parrying attacks is plausible, but takes a penalty for being outnumbered (but maybe not for the same person attacking twice). In other circumstances, taking cover behind your shield is plausible, and so works as stated, without any kind of outnumbering penalty. In other circumstances again, parrying is not plausible, so you don't get to roll.

A generic system that attempted to decide all that for the gm would need to take into account at least facing, weapon velocity, reaction time, distance, and surprise. And I suspect when you did all that math, you'd either get the correct answer you already know, or a wrong one that would just be annoying.

 

 

 

[Barak Shathur]

The way I understood it under the old rules, the base chance to parry missiles functioned more like cover than an active parry, i.e. the shield is simply in the way, rather than being used to parry actively with. If the penalty for multiple parries is applied, most shields will only be able to block one, or at most two missiles, greatly reducing one of the few benefits they have under BRP’s system. And it is particularly true if you don’t use hit locations. This is the way it makes sense to me, but I admit the wording is a bit ambiguous. Maybe there will be a Q&A eventually to clear things up. 
 

I absolutely love that they added the rule for cover as protecting hit locations (as in RQ), it’s an incredibly elegant solution. And it dovetails nicely with the rule for slung shields, which seems to me to be the best use for shields in melee as the rules stand. But that’s just me.