Tell Me About the Argenteus-Kazkurtum Succession

[dumuzid]

So the Mask of the Red Emperor called Argenteus pays for the several debacles the Lunar Empire faces in the later 1620s with his life.  Per this post on the Well of Daliath, he's succeeded by 'Kazkurtum.'  I have some dim understanding that this is the new Red Emperor installed by Great Sister after sacrificing Argenteus in the Hon-Eel Rites, and that he's regarded as 'false' or 'artificial' after his reign.  I'm guessing he wasn't called Kazkurtum while he was in office, given the connotations of the name.  The only direct reference to this fellow that I know of is on page 750 of the Guide to Glorantha, where Ethilrist describes him as "the poor sacrifice Jar-eel and Great Sister had raised to power."

What I hope to learn is as much detail as I can about this Kazkurtum: how much is known about them before their elevation, or about the sacrificial rite that installed him, or about why he's so poorly regarded in later years.  Any insights or direction towards appropriate literary sources will be profoundly welcome.

I'm  curious about all this because the campaign I'm currently running is going to be in the Lunar Heartlands around the time Argenteus is supposed to go, but I'm not sure where to find more information about the event beyond the Guide, currently my only real source on events post-1625.  Anything I can learn about this subject will help me portray the intersection of this particular note in Lunar Imperial history with the Quest for the Bones of Artmal that my campaign is mainly concerned with, so any new information will be greatly appreciated.

[Nick Brooke]

“Kazkurtum” = no emperor. Check out my Manifesto for suggestive pointers.

[metcalph]

5 hours ago, dumuzid said:

So the Mask of the Red Emperor called Argenteus pays for the several debacles the Lunar Empire faces in the later 1620s with his life.  Per this post on the Well of Daliath, he's succeeded by 'Kazkurtum.'  I have some dim understanding that this is the new Red Emperor installed by Great Sister after sacrificing Argenteus in the Hon-Eel Rites, and that he's regarded as 'false' or 'artificial' after his reign.  I'm guessing he wasn't called Kazkurtum while he was in office, given the connotations of the name.  The only direct reference to this fellow that I know of is on page 750 of the Guide to Glorantha, where Ethilrist describes him as "the poor sacrifice Jar-eel and Great Sister had raised to power."

I think this is Renovus rather than Kazkurtum.  He's not a Red Emperor as such (ie is not of One Substance with Moonson) but a legitimate Emperor of Dara Happa.  Another reference to him is the TakenEgi Stelae (erected by Invictus, I think) "I was enthroned in the 13th year of the 8th Wane, after the Rebel Gods killed the Usurper whom my mother and sister had given dominion of Glamour" who is named in King of Sartar as Phargentes.  

Question:  how bad is the relation between Phargentes Invictus and JarEel if she makes Someone Else the Emperor rather than her son?  Perhaps he had too much of his father in him?  I'm inclined to see a Hamlet scenario with Brian Cox's Logan Roy as the Emperor's Cousin (an obscure personage mentioned in a Gregly text published in Tales #8) if that helps.  

 

 

[DrGoth]

8 hours ago, dumuzid said:

What I hope to learn is as much detail as I can about this Kazkurtum: how much is known about them before their elevation, or about the sacrificial rite that installed him, or about why he's so poorly regarded in later years.  Any insights or direction towards appropriate literary sources will be profoundly welcome.

Short answer: Very very little.  If what Nick says applies, then Kazkurtum isn't even a person.

6 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

“Kazkurtum” = no emperor. Check out my Manifesto for suggestive pointers.

Slight longer answer:  Make it up.  He can be whoever you like.  A spiritually crippled Red Emperor because one of the Egi ate something bad for breakfast on the day they reassembled him?  A jumped up pretender who really is a false emperor? For those, maybe the red emperor's totally nutso grandson? A general on the make?  A priest who thinks he can do it better than that last mask?

Even longer answer: Kazkurtum? Who is this Kazkurtum? Oh, you've been reading that deluded wishful thinking from the tattered remnants of those dreary barbarians down south.  They still haven't got over the death of their god, have they?  Keep trying to contacting him and failing. It's pitiful really.  Why they even thought they could take on the light and majesty of Sedenya is beyond me. Now, Sheng Seleris, there was a worthy foe.  They did help set him free, I'll grant you that. They should have known he would turn on them the moment they did that.  Still, can't complain.  Watching one of your enemies destroy another is always fun. Pass the popcorn, as Argenteus would have said.  Yes, dear old Sheng did give us some trouble.  Before we fed him to the maw of chaos.  Now we live in the glorious reign of J-.  Oh, sorry got to go now. No, no, nothing like a problem. We don't have problems. At all. Everything is wonderful. Got it?

Edited April 28, 2023 by DrGoth

[jajagappa]

While I generally subscribe to Nick's point that it is a period without an Emperor (i.e. no Emperor), you could also posit that there are several would-be candidates who are attempting to achieve the Ten Tests and stabbing each other in the back to stop the others.

8 hours ago, dumuzid said:

I have some dim understanding that this is the new Red Emperor installed by Great Sister after sacrificing Argenteus in the Hon-Eel Rites, and that he's regarded as 'false' or 'artificial' after his reign.

As Peter noted, I think this is Renovus. 

Assuming Argenteus is sacrificed in 1628, then Great Sister likely stepped back to see who could achieve the Ten Tests. No one did, hence the reign of Kazkurtum. She finally has to intervene again and installs Renovus as Emperor perhaps even without him completing the Ten Tests.

[dumuzid]

38 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

As Peter noted, I think this is Renovus. 

Assuming Argenteus is sacrificed in 1628, then Great Sister likely stepped back to see who could achieve the Ten Tests. No one did, hence the reign of Kazkurtum. She finally has to intervene again and installs Renovus as Emperor perhaps even without him completing the Ten Tests.

Okay, I can go along with the idea that 'Kazkurtum' on the list of Masks is a bit like the Barracks Emperors period the Romans went through, and Renovus is the 'poor sacrifice' of Ethilrist's writing.  Leads to more detail-oriented questions though.

Based on events in my campaign's Glorantha I anticipate that Great Sister will enact the Hon-Eel rites on Argenteus in Fire or early Earth of 1628, not long after my campaign's equivalent of the Battle of Heroes takes place on Kodros Isle.  Where would be the sensible place to perform the sacrifice?  If Great Sister is going to stuff Argenteus into a wicker man or let his blood over the growing crops or what have you, what's the most resonant sacred site in the Heartlands (or beyond) for that job?

[jajagappa]

12 minutes ago, dumuzid said:

Where would be the sensible place to perform the sacrifice? 

There's multiple options, but personally and mythically, I think Karantes in Naveria would be the logical choice. Guide, p.317: "Karantes (large city): Called the Red City, this city of tall golden towers built out of sun-dried brick is the capital of the Oronin Satrapy, home of the Eel-ariash clan, and center of the Hon-eel cult. In the Gods Age, the Red King sat here upon his throne of gold, wore his golden crown, and bore his golden scepter until he was sacrificed by Naveria for the good of their people."

Also same page: "Naveria: The Land of Women. The Naverian Goddesses are widespread through all of Peloria. Naveria was the culture bringer, who set the Dara Happans apart from the barbarians with her urban knowledge. Her husband was Vantestos, the Red King, and together they prepared the way for the coming of Murharzarm. In the Fifth Wane, Hon-eel rediscovered ancient Naverian secrets of human sacrifice from Natha the Sacrificer, an important Naverian goddess."

[metcalph]

8 minutes ago, dumuzid said:

Based on events in my campaign's Glorantha I anticipate that Great Sister will enact the Hon-Eel rites on Argenteus in Fire or early Earth of 1628, not long after my campaign's equivalent of the Battle of Heroes takes place on Kodros Isle.  Where would be the sensible place to perform the sacrifice?  If Great Sister is going to stuff Argenteus into a wicker man or let his blood over the growing crops or what have you, what's the most resonant sacred site in the Heartlands (or beyond) for that job?

There's always the chance it wasn't the Great Sister's urging.  Argenteus might just have been drunk enough and whined why he couldn't be the bad guy for once.  

A ritual involving a sacrifice of a king does take place in Carantes (cf the Red King story in the Entekosiad) but it isn't a Corn Rite.

Honeel started her career with the slaughter of the Horse Nomad rulers of Doblian City.  Again not a corn ritual.  

The traditional for the murder of the Emperor would be the Footstool (after Murharzarm).  

Other places might be Furthest (with HonEel did in Pyjeemsaab) and Oraya (where the last Corn Priestesses were sent in a crackdown) but both those places are dicy militarily speaking.

[Nick Brooke]

I think the “Hon-eel Rites” are a Red Fish: Greg used to think this was a Heron or Stork Goddess sacrifice, back when he obsessed about Heron and Stork Goddesses, so the Weedy marshes of Darjiin are perhaps more in-scope. (For some reason Dorkath is also ringing a bell. Go figure.)

But YGWV, and certainly I won’t be saying Moonson is safe as long as he stays away from Ptolemy’s Theatre on the Ides of March…

[Squaredeal Sten]

As I recall it is mentioned in Well of Daliath that Argenteus was murdered by the Great Suster during Sacred Time.  I looked that up very recently, as I have a campaign that just entered 1629 ST.

No location is given.  But where will He be during Sacred Time?  IMHO not in the Provinces but in Glamour or on the Red Moon.  He fled the Battle of Heroes and did not stay in Tarsh.  Wouldn't he have fled to his capital?

I imagine the killing itself as done by surprise.  No trip to a distant Sacred sacrificial site. He will be doing his usual ceremonies.   Don't give him a period of captivity to prepare his own magics.  Just off Argenteus and burn the body.  In public at a Sacred Time ritual?  In private at breakfast?  In bed?  Keep it simple.  Complex plots fail.

 

[Nick Brooke]

The Lunar New Year ritual is described in the Glorantha Sourcebook. Moonson plays a key ceremonial role.

[Nick Brooke]

Source: Hon-eel's Descendants, by Jeff Richard, on the Well of Daliath:

Quote

8. Wylua-oor: This Old Children clan controls the SurEnslib temple in Dorkath; they seized control of the satrapy when one of the Red Emperor’s Masks was devoured by the Heron Goddess during the Dorkath Rites (over which they preside). They are urbane, civilized, and devoted to both the Red Goddess and the Heron Goddess. They are also feared for the cutthroat Dart Competitions they wage against the other satrapal houses.

The current satrap is Feathered Eye Woman, a woman of considerable charm, intelligence, and ability.

 

[Jeff]

52 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

I think the “Hon-eel Rites” are a Red Fish: Greg used to think this was a Heron or Stork Goddess sacrifice, back when he obsessed about Heron and Stork Goddesses, so the Weedy marshes of Darjiin are perhaps more in-scope. (For some reason Dorkath is also ringing a bell. Go figure.)

But YGWV, and certainly I won’t be saying Moonson is safe as long as he stays away from Ptolemy’s Theatre on the Ides of March…

The obsession with Heron and Stork Goddesses is tied to Marija Gimbutas and her belief of a "gynocentric" neolithic culture which was ousted by the "patriarchal" Indo-European cultures with the onset of the Bronze Age. The Entekosiad, Brightface, and the Bird Woman stuff all ties into that. We get less of that among the Theyalans in part because they are post- the fall of Brightface.

But that's all ancient history. With the Third Age, we still have a few remaining Bird Woman fertility cults (SurEnslib and Biselenslib), primarily in Darjiin, Doblian, Kostaddi, and Sylila.  They are big cults, with somewhere around 150k initiates in total. These cults have links with the ancient past, and include shamanism, sex and death rites, and also birds. But they also don't play a big (or even a minor) role in the monomyth. Think of them as a really successful Horned Man cult, but with a Bird Woman as the great shaman figure.

[Jeff]

27 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

Source: Hon-eel's Descendants, by Jeff Richard, on the Well of Daliath:

 

Probably the single most useful article for understand great house politics in the Lunar Empire.