The "Runners-Up" of Military Might?

[metcalph]

On 5/3/2023 at 11:17 PM, Shiningbrow said:

True. you didn't. 

Then please don't misquote other people to launch you own theories about what you think is the case.  You should be quite capable of writing a new post.

[Shiningbrow]

15 hours ago, g33k said:

The GtG's "view from 30000 feet" might not mention a few thousand Trolls scattered amongst a few thousand each of a hundred or more different types of "Demon."  It's not like we have an exhaustive catalog of Underworld demons to hand, let alone all the other kinds of beings sometimes called "demons."

Again, I disagree. The GtT is quite happy to list numbers in the Population tables that go as low as 1000, and regularly mentions 5000. The maps, OTOH, regularly have numbers in the 2-4K mark (the lowest I noticed across the two books was 1K).

So, if there were trolls (or gargoyles) in any amount higher than 1000, then there's a good chance they would have been specifically mentioned. If there was more than 5000, they most definitely would have been mentioned!

And... less than 1000 trolls amongst a group of 240,000 demons.... sure, some of those Uz are pretty insane (ZZ), but not something I'd be willing (as an Uz PC) to put myself into.

So... assuming 'demon' also means 'troll' (or 'gargoyle') is a pretty wild (and completely unwarranted) statement.

Also, the Bestiary is reasonably clear about a couple of things (which GMs can freely ignore, of course). Firstly, demons are underworld spirits. I don't think that trolls are considered spirits just because they (sometimes) come from an underworld. Secondly, they have APs and HPs always equal to current MPs.  Again, something trolls don't have. Sure, the Bestiary was written years after the GtG, and nomenclature may not be the same. But it is another piece of supporting evidence against there being a confusion between the two.

[Shiningbrow]

On 5/2/2023 at 5:44 PM, metcalph said:

The Arandinni were originally the human land of Zatalumash and so it seems likely to me that it's a mixed Andin/human land.  I've always considered the relationship between the Arandinni and Hanfarador to be epitomised in this statuary I once saw at Bangkok Airport.

That's the Samudra Manthana

For this reason, I always seen the Andins as more of a mixture of Trolls (sea trolls are explicitly mentioned in the Guide p93), Gargoyles and the like rather than chaotics.  

But, somehow, we're not supposed to take that to mean "all".... right! 🙄

On 5/2/2023 at 6:17 PM, metcalph said:

It depends on what the definition of demon is, init.  Since Trolls come from the Underworld, they qualify.  And there are tunnels to hell in Dagori Inkarth.

 

Ummm - no. Just because something comes from the underworld does not make it a 'demon'. (except to certain cultures within the fictional world). I doubt many players would ever use the term 'demon' to refer to a 'troll'. Demons are explicitly stated as being embodied spirits. Trolls are not considered to be embodied spirits.

 

On 5/3/2023 at 6:49 PM, metcalph said:

I didn't say all.  I explicitly said a mixture of Trolls, Gargoyles and the like.  

 

And other than your photo, and "trolls come from the underworld", there is absolutely NO evidence whatsoever in the guide to suggest that this is the case, for any trolls, gargoyles "and the like" - let alone a large amount (however, not all).

There is very good evidence that makes it pretty clear that this is not the case - as per my post above.

Obviously, you can feel what you like about it, and make your Glorantha your way... but it's not supported by anything in writing from anywhere remotely official!

[Bill the barbarian]

21 hours ago, g33k said:

As @metcalph notes, Trolls' Underworld-origin absolutely qualifies them as "demons," and if the Andini (Andinni?) "demons" are some mixture of different-kinds-of-demon (as seems likely) that could well include Trolls.

Correct.

[g33k]

9 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

... Also, the Bestiary is reasonably clear about a couple of things (which GMs can freely ignore, of course). Firstly, demons are underworld spirits. I don't think that trolls are considered spirits just because they (sometimes) come from an underworld. Secondly, they have APs and HPs always equal to current MPs.  Again, something trolls don't have. Sure, the Bestiary was written years after the GtG, and nomenclature may not be the same. But it is another piece of supporting evidence against there being a confusion between the two.

Entries in the Bestiary, and the RQG product-line, may well have restricted the canonical meaning of "Demon," which has (I believe intentionally) previously been quite broad.

I actually posed this question, previously:
https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/5327-gloranthan-demons/

(TL;DR -- no definitive consensus was ever achieved.)

 

It may now be a word like "bug" is, in our world.  To some, a "bug" is synonymous with an "insect."  To others, spiders are included.  Some go further still, and include scorpions &c, sometimes even centipedes & millipedes... regionally, even some crustaceans are "bugs!"  But any entomologist can tell you that the true bugs are those families/genera/species in the order Hemiptera, of the class Insecta.

 

 

[Jeff]

OK, if this is going to become a discussion about the Andins of the East Islands, pleaser make that a different thread or I need to lock this down.

[g33k]

2 hours ago, Jeff said:

OK, if this is going to become a discussion about the Andins of the East Islands, pleaser make that a different thread or I need to lock this down.

Care to chime in on whether the Andini (Andinni?) are a credible candidate for that "runner-up" military?

Also welcome (either here, or in that thread I linked, explicitly on the topic of "demons") to clarify the whole "what even is a demon, in Glorantha" topic...

Edited May 5, 2023 by g33k
one "n" or two??!?

[Jeff]

So the most powerful "organised military" as of 1625 is the Lunar Empire - there's no question that this is the most powerful organised military in Glorantha.

After that it is the militaries of the various large states: Seshnela, Loskalm, Kralorelan Empire, the Vormaino Empire, Golden Kareeshtu, and Afadjann, plus the powerful nomad confederation of Voor-ash (the Voor-ash might actually be the most powerful military of that group). Argrath's alliance of Sartarites, Wolf Pirates, and Praxian nomads is going to rapidly climb the charts to where it can go toe to toe with the Lunar Empire for over two decades, but that is still a few years off.

The Elder Races are not "organised militaries" in that sense, but I'd certainly not want to see them on the march if I were a human ruler (unless they were allied with me). 

Edited May 5, 2023 by Jeff