Gloranthan Demons

[g33k]

Erm.  What are they, actually?

Not "chaotic" by nature -- though Chaos can corrupt them (as it can anything else) ).

Not just "from Hell" -- though many (maybe even "most" -- but clearly not all!) seem to have some connection to (if not origin in) Hell.

Ummm... just really really antisocial?  Doesn't that make the average StormBull cultist a "demon"?

 

[Tindalos]

To quote Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes: "“Demon” is a generic label that is applied to any powerful otherworldly entity that is outside of one’s own pantheon." Usually they're from the Underworld, although this is not always the case.

The servants of Shargash and Yelm are often called Fire Demons by the Orlanthi, such as those imprisoned in the Cinder Pits. The Pelorians would refer to them as angels, gods, or Shanassae.

Trolls would technically be classifiable as demons, but generally aren't because of their mortal and physical nature, many of their summoned spirits and other entities of darkness are demons.

Many servants of Valind, and other gods of cold and wind are known as Ice Demons.

 

So yes. If you've got a peaceful Lodrilli village in Peloria assaulted by a storm bull worshipper, the survivors might describe him as a monstrous demon, surrounded by others, with breath straight from the demon hell, and fearsome horns upon his head.

[jajagappa]

3 hours ago, Tindalos said:

“Demon” is a generic label that is applied to any powerful otherworldly entity

Through the Guide, you'll generally find demon or demonic applied to something 'evil' or 'hostile' from the perspective of a given pantheon.

Also, demons seem to either be descended directly from a god/demigod (e.g. anti-gods such as the sea demon Turvenost; Valind's ice demons) or have some 'demonic' look (e.g. the Arandinni are a type of Andin demon that are humanoid, but larger than men, have more power, and have horns and scaled skin) or have some innate magical power/ability (e.g. Ethilrist's demon steeds, the Crimson Bat).

[Jenx]

Demon in Glorantha is used in generally the same way it was used in ancient Earth: "A spirit or god we don't like/is hostile to us."

 

A perfect Gloranthan example would be during the Great Darkness, when the great Sky Captains fell from the sky to save and protect the remains of humanity.....unless you ask the Orlanthi, which will tell you that terrible demons of fire fell from the sky and burned and destroyed everything where they fell.

[Noita]

"Bloody wind daimones" swore Yrll Loamfoot as he tended his rice paddy and a gust of wind took off with his sunhat.

Edited October 10, 2016 by Iskallor

[davecake]

The Orlanthi aren't going to necessarily regard Sky Captains coming down from the Sky as hostile/demons, as several of them became tribal founders of the Heortling era tribes... 

 

 

[jajagappa]

On 10/13/2016 at 9:23 AM, davecake said:

The Orlanthi aren't going to necessarily regard Sky Captains coming down from the Sky as hostile/demons

Simple way to tell:  If they attack and destroy the chaos attacking you, they are good.  If they attack you, they are demons.

[GianniVacca]

On 10/7/2016 at 10:57 PM, jajagappa said:

the Arandinni are a type of Andin demon that are humanoid, but larger than men, have more power, and have horns and scaled skin

Any pics of Arandinni or at least of Andin anywhere?

[Sir_Godspeed]

13 minutes ago, GianniVacca said:

Any pics of Arandinni or at least of Andin anywhere?

Here's one fan(?) interpretation of an Andin. I appears heavily based on a Balinese(?) mask, and personally I think it's as good a fit as any, though I have no idea whether this is the direction Chaosium wants to go in.

[metcalph]

I assume the Andins are either trolls or related to them. 

[Bill the barbarian]

6 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Here's one fan(?) interpretation of an Andin. I appears heavily based on a Balinese(?) mask, and personally I think it's as good a fit as any, though I have no idea whether this is the direction Chaosium wants to go in.

GADZOOKS!

I had just clicked on the link to this thread when something called my attention away, It loaded and by the time I looked back "the bride of godzilla" above greeted my tired eyes.zounds and gadzooks! I mean, honestly, that is me on a bad morning, but still...

[GianniVacca]

7 minutes ago, metcalph said:

I assume the Andins are either trolls or related to them. 

What makes you think so?

[Joerg]

Andins are an Underworld (Sortum...) race come to the light of day. Presumably humanoid, with grotesque heads. Threatening dentistry and protruding or extra sets of toothed mandibles optional. But then, this applies to all underworld creatures depicted so far, including the Dara Happan hell lords and that one-shot underworld invaders in the Hero Wars Narrators Book scenario.

But then, they (or just some of them) might just as well look and move like the Skeksis race from Jim Henson's "The Dark Crystal".

There is no reason to assume that all Andins follow the same body or dentistry plan - there may well be tribes with quite distinct features, if you wish there to be. Some may even be attractive (at least until they open their mouths).

One thing the Andins don't appear to be is matriarchal. But then, Zorak Zoran and Argan Argar are probably the two troll cults with the most human interaction.

We do have imagery for the Huan-to (RQG-Bestiary) and the Gorgers (RQ3 Glorantha Bestiary), two antigod races coming from the same or a very similar source. The Gorgers do look like another type of lean trolls, the Huan-to certainly less so, but then their description has been quite different from uz, too.

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

that is me on a bad morning, but still...

So if you post a pic of yourself on a bad morning, you'll have satisfied Gianni's query! 😉

[Akhôrahil]

Quoting ’Die’: ”The difference between a god and a demon is exactly the same as the difference between a freedom fighter and a terrorist.”

[scott-martin]

2 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Quoting ’Die’ 

Love it. "When we were teenagers, there was an RPG we all wanted to play. It was called Pendragon."
 

[metcalph]

7 hours ago, GianniVacca said:

What makes you think [Andins are trolls or related - PHM]?

Ever since I realized that Vithelan mythology was written about the duelling tribes of Night and Day and that Andins and other antigods were creatures of the Night.

[Bill the barbarian]

On 10/7/2016 at 11:28 AM, Tindalos said:

Trolls would technically be classifiable as demons, but generally aren't because of their mortal and physical nature, many of their summoned spirits and other entities of darkness are demons.

 

Until RQ G when I started a torkani campaign I always told my players they had been told that Trolls were demons. For two reasons, jajagappa gives one below, and the second reason: I never felt it was my job to tell the adventurers the truth...

On 10/7/2016 at 2:57 PM, jajagappa said:

Through the Guide, you'll generally find demon or demonic applied to something 'evil' or 'hostile' from the perspective of a given pantheon.

 

Cheers

[Ali the Helering]

It is a demon 'cos the clan priest says it is. After all, who knows better? 

[Sir_Godspeed]

9 hours ago, metcalph said:

Ever since I realized that Vithelan mythology was written about the duelling tribes of Night and Day and that Andins and other antigods were creatures of the Night.

Aren't Storm entities also classified as Antigods? I just got this general impression, but I can't quite mention a specific instance.

[Tindalos]

36 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Aren't Storm entities also classified as Antigods? I just got this general impression, but I can't quite mention a specific instance.

Wangbiao/King Violent Wind is classed as an Antigod (GtG 284) and is worshipped by people who claim descent from Wind Children. (The name also suggests the West King Wind of Pent.)

And of course Storm entities would be creatures of the Night. Look what their king did to the sun!

[Pentallion]

East Isles are very polarized.  Stasis - gods. Movement - antigods. Illusion - antigods. Truth - gods. Orlanth is definitely seen as Bitador and thus an antigod.

So I'm not so sure that Andins are trolls.  Also, the GtG describes them as manifesting as rapacious spirits. This is confusing because the guide also describes them as island inhabitants and one as a very powerful fighter who was only bested in combat by Dech Oru, an Arandinni. The Arandinni are described as a type of Andin that are larger and stronger than humans.  So again, not a spirit.

Andins, therefore, seem quite problematical. Are they spirits or are they flesh and blood?

[Joerg]

On 11/20/2021 at 7:28 AM, Pentallion said:

East Isles are very polarized.  Stasis - gods. Movement - antigods. Illusion - antigods. Truth - gods. Orlanth is definitely seen as Bitador and thus an antigod.

So I'm not so sure that Andins are trolls. 

They are an underworld species of roughly humanoid stature, but they are fairly certainly not descended from Kyger Litor (which is the mark of a troll in Glorantha).

The Underworld allows physical species to have bodies made up (mostly) of shadow. When roaming the Surface World, quite a few underworld species are able to switch between such stages. Vampires, for instance, like the former guardian of Death could.

 

On 11/20/2021 at 7:28 AM, Pentallion said:

Also, the GtG describes them as manifesting as rapacious spirits. This is confusing because the guide also describes them as island inhabitants and one as a very powerful fighter who was only bested in combat by Dech Oru, an Arandinni. The Arandinni are described as a type of Andin that are larger and stronger than humans.  So again, not a spirit.

That makes Andin both the name of a specific species and the broader term for entities from the Antigod underworld. Much like the term Aldryami includes trees, dryads, elves, runners, and sprites.

 

On 11/20/2021 at 7:28 AM, Pentallion said:

Andins, therefore, seem quite problematical. Are they spirits or are they flesh and blood?

A conundrum similar to dealing with fully initiated Kitori.

[Darius West]

In Glorantha, a demon seems to be any entity summoned from another plane that you don't happen to like.  You could say that there is a degree of demonization going on. 😈

IRL, the term demon comes from the Greek word Daimon, which referred to non-divine supernatural beings of great power, including the spirits of heroes and some lesser gods and demigods.  

The crucial distinction between a divine entity and a mere daimon is discussed at length in Iamblchus' "On the Mysteries", wherein the Hellenic-Egyptian Priest Mantheo (in the Roman Era) discusses at length a great deal of the inner workings of pre-Christian theology with a Greek Philosopher.  The TL/DR version is that true deities, 'divinities' are separated from daimons, because divinities are extratemporal and thus can perform reliable prophecy and divination.  So the word 'divine', actually references the practice of 'divination'.

It is an interesting distinction, because in essence it means that in the ancient world, a deity could be able to pull down mountains, but if they couldn't provide a Divination spell, they weren't a real god, if translating Hellenic Egyptian theology into RQ rules terms.

Obviously the term demon is now synonymous with the Christian idea of demons i.e. hostile supernatural entities, but that is based on the hostile reinterpretation of what Daimons were.  For example, if someone developed telekinetic power, or was fantastically strong, within the context of ancient Greece, you could say they had realized their Daimon.  The term has much in common with the idea of a guardian angel, an idea that has often skated the borders of heresy in Christianity.

The fact is that in Glorantha there aren't any rules of classification for what is and isn't a demon unless we invent it and retrofit the definition to cover all the facts.

[French Desperate WindChild]

6 hours ago, Darius West said:

It is an interesting distinction, because in essence it means that in the ancient world, a deity could be able to pull down mountains, but if they couldn't provide a Divination spell, they weren't a real god, if translating Hellenic Egyptian theology into RQ rules terms.

seems to me that in Gorantha, a deity could provide a dinivation spell but if they could be able to pull down mountains (or just a wall) by themselves, they weren't a real god but maybe a demon, thanks to the compromise

 

thanks you, by the way, you teached me something today