The "Runners-Up" of Military Might?

[Gallowglass]

Jeff recently posted this on Facebook, and someone asked if any armies in Pamaltela could stand up to these big scary Genertelan examples. I've also been wondering if there are any human armies on the wider Lozenge, or among the Elder Races that merit the same fear and respect. I finally found time to re-read relevant bits of the Guide, and I have decided that NO, Jeff's examples are indeed the mightiest of the mighty, with maybe one exception.

I want to see if anyone can guess which "army" I'm thinking of!

Also, I'm curious to hear which military powers we think are worth honorable mentions, even if they don't make the A-list. Mine are-

• The Kingdom of Ignorance (but only if you count all the trolls and trollkin)
• Dorastor (that's a lot of broos, although it's unclear how many Ralzakark can actually command)
• The Pujaleg Empire (relatively small, but punches well above it's weight!)

 

 

[metcalph]

22 minutes ago, Gallowglass said:

Jeff recently posted this on Facebook, and someone asked if any armies in Pamaltela could stand up to these big scary Genertelan examples. I've also been wondering if there are any human armies on the wider Lozenge, or among the Elder Races that merit the same fear and respect. I finally found time to re-read relevant bits of the Guide, and I have decided that NO, Jeff's examples are indeed the mightiest of the mighty, with maybe one exception.

 

In Pamaltela, I would say the armed forces of Golden Kareeshtu are supreme.  However that largely depends on their yachts and ability to hold and resupply cities by sea.  I doubt they are capable of mustering a professional army and keep it in the field for an extended period of time.  Behind them would be the Arbennan and the Kresh.  Afadjann extends its power through Darleester rather than any major operations and Nikosdros is keeping quiet for the time being.

In the East are the navies of Haragala and Hanfarador.  Both are coming under serious pressure from the Andins.

[g33k]

2 hours ago, Gallowglass said:

... Jeff's examples are indeed the mightiest of the mighty, with maybe one exception.

I want to see if anyone can guess which "army" I'm thinking of!

Maybe you're thinking of "the dragon(ewt)s" ... ?
 

[Darius West]

All the Elder Races are potentially forces to reckon with if they unite.  I think the Mostali in particular are terrifying in their potential.  

[David Scott]

For those without access to Facebook: https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/military-might-in-1625/

[EricW]

I think its pretty near impossible to make such determinations, because an otherworld magical victory could tip the balance at any moment during a conflict.

For example, the Lunars managed to temporarily kill Orlanth, which devastated the magical capabilities of the Orlanthi rebels, until Orlanth was liberated.

Later the rebels somehow caused the dragon rise, and broke the hold of the Lunar occupiers - does this mean the rebels were more powerful than the empire? I mean they eventually defeat the empire?

Later still in the hero wars, Argrath resurrected Sheng Solaris, who killed and ate the Red Emperor, but in the process dealt a devastating magical injury to the forces of the Goddess. Does this mean Argrath and his army was stronger than the empire?

Even apparently obvious comparisons, like the the might of the Empire vs Dorastor. Consider what would have happened if the empire attempted to march into Dorastor and occupy it. Dorastor in the second age was so dangerous EWF adventurers who went to investigate were never heard from again, or returned as undead or chaos monsters. Ralzakark somehow restrained these horrors. But who knows what magical alliances and deals he made, and what horrible forces Ralzakark could call on if facing an existential challenge. It's likely Ralzakark knows God learner secrets extracted from those who resurrected him, and has access to magical myth mangling skills only matched by Argrath after his quest to talk to the dead god learners. The empire might eventually prevail in a conflict between Ralzakark and the emperor - but at what cost? And could we be certain of the outcome?

Or let's take another comparison, the empire vs Brithos - Zabur vs the magical might of the empire. Who would win that contest? Pretty impressive being the kind of sorcerer who can close off the seas of the entire world.

 

[DrGoth]

I'm not sure how impressive the armies of Fonrit are, but they do have a large population.

[Gallowglass]

9 hours ago, metcalph said:

In Pamaltela, I would say the armed forces of Golden Kareeshtu are supreme.  However that largely depends on their yachts and ability to hold and resupply cities by sea.  I doubt they are capable of mustering a professional army and keep it in the field for an extended period of time.  Behind them would be the Arbennan and the Kresh.  Afadjann extends its power through Darleester rather than any major operations and Nikosdros is keeping quiet for the time being.

I agree with your assessments. I thought of including the Arbennan, but I see them as kind of green and unpracticed. I think the Errinoru elves should probably also get a shoutout, but I don’t think they have ever fought a foreign army before.

 

7 hours ago, g33k said:

Maybe you're thinking of "the dragon(ewt)s" ... ?

Nope! That’s a good guess though, I forgot about all the True Dragons lying around. Kind of stretches the definition of a “military” but that’s ok.

Edited May 1, 2023 by Gallowglass

[Gallowglass]

2 hours ago, EricW said:

 

I think its pretty near impossible to make such determinations, because an otherworld magical victory could tip the balance at any moment during a conflict.

 

I guess one way to think about this would be, “what kinds of resources can your military call on consistently?” I’m mainly thinking about manpower, magical power, organization, and the individual strength of your units. Sure some plucky rebels can come along and summon a dragon, but can they do it whenever they want?

 

5 hours ago, Darius West said:

 

All the Elder Races are potentially forces to reckon with if they unite.  I think the Mostali in particular are terrifying in their potential.

 

I think the Elder Races rate highly in “magically powerful” and “individually strong.” The Mostali are very organized to be sure. I think it’s the manpower issue in most cases that keeps them down. I thought of including the Malasp as an honorable mention, but I don’t think the Guide gives us population figures for them.

[g33k]

7 hours ago, Darius West said:

All the Elder Races are potentially forces to reckon with if they unite.  I think the Mostali in particular are terrifying in their potential.  

The "Big 3" (Mostali/Aldryami/Uz) are IMHO all "particularly" terrifying, considering each of them in turn.

If Kyger Litor were to declare an "All Uz On Deck" holy-war, it's hard to envision any single Human military that could face them... I bet a "flying wedge" of armored-up Cave Trolls would break even the hardiest Phalanx.
And plants are everywhere; every human polity and military are 100% reliant on Aldrya and her domain.  If the plants themselves rose up against them... well.

But those deities don't seem inclined to give such orders (yet).

The Hero Wars have only barely begun, however...

[metcalph]

6 hours ago, Gallowglass said:

 I think the Errinoru elves should probably also get a shoutout, but I don’t think they have ever fought a foreign army before.

Errinoru fought the God Learners at the Invasion of the Talking Beach (which is kinda curious for its dating) and later destroyed four cities on the Pamaltelan coast.  His modern day successors  have the upper hand against Flanch (who should count as foreign).

[Gallowglass]

49 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Errinoru fought the God Learners at the Invasion of the Talking Beach (which is kinda curious for its dating) and later destroyed four cities on the Pamaltelan coast.  His modern day successors  have the upper hand against Flanch (who should count as foreign).

Trying to think of a good Flanch pun… I guess I’ve been… out-Flanched?

[Gallowglass]

Okay, since no one’s biting, I’ll just share my “one possible exception.” Metcalph deserves some credit for mentioning them in his first post: the Andins! 

I noticed when looking through the East Isles chapter of the Guide that the Andins number over 240k across the whole archipelago! That’s a huge population of demons to worry about! There’s also another 100k on the Arandinni Islands, although it’s not clear if these are subservient humans, or the Arandinni themselves. Either way, big numbers.

I admit there are a lot of unknowns about the Andin horde. Many of them might be too weak, or refuse to serve Dech Oru. But even if you have say… 50k battle-ready Arandinni under the king, that’s pretty scary! They are physically powerful, have deadly magic and martial arts, and have a few Heroes among them. 

[metcalph]

9 hours ago, Gallowglass said:

Okay, since no one’s biting, I’ll just share my “one possible exception.” Metcalph deserves some credit for mentioning them in his first post: the Andins! 

I noticed when looking through the East Isles chapter of the Guide that the Andins number over 240k across the whole archipelago! That’s a huge population of demons to worry about! There’s also another 100k on the Arandinni Islands, although it’s not clear if these are subservient humans, or the Arandinni themselves. Either way, big numbers.

I admit there are a lot of unknowns about the Andin horde. Many of them might be too weak, or refuse to serve Dech Oru. But even if you have say… 50k battle-ready Arandinni under the king, that’s pretty scary! They are physically powerful, have deadly magic and martial arts, and have a few Heroes among them. 

The Arandinni were originally the human land of Zatalumash and so it seems likely to me that it's a mixed Andin/human land.  I've always considered the relationship between the Arandinni and Hanfarador to be epitomised in this statuary I once saw at Bangkok Airport.

That's the Samudra Manthana

For this reason, I always seen the Andins as more of a mixture of Trolls (sea trolls are explicitly mentioned in the Guide p93), Gargoyles and the like rather than chaotics.  

[Shiningbrow]

17 minutes ago, metcalph said:

The Arandinni were originally the human land of Zatalumash and so it seems likely to me that it's a mixed Andin/human land.  I've always considered the relationship between the Arandinni and Hanfarador to be epitomised in this statuary I once saw at Bangkok Airport.

That's the Samudra Manthana

For this reason, I always seen the Andins as more of a mixture of Trolls (sea trolls are explicitly mentioned in the Guide p93), Gargoyles and the like rather than chaotics.  

The Guide, around P473-478, makes no mention of trolls, and specifically mentions demons (and their human allies). There's a tunnel down to a hell on one of the islands.

[metcalph]

13 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

The Guide, around P473-478, makes no mention of trolls, and specifically mentions demons (and their human allies). There's a tunnel down to a hell on one of the islands.

It depends on what the definition of demon is, init.  Since Trolls come from the Underworld, they qualify.  And there are tunnels to hell in Dagori Inkarth.

[Akhôrahil]

Both dwarves and trolls could probably put up some pretty impressive armies in their stronghold areas. Their problem is that they can't afford losses.

[dumuzid]

I wouldn't discount the military capacities of the bigger slaver states of Fonrit.

The Afadjanni have shown themselves capable of great military exertions.  They fought their own Hundred Years War in Umathela, the eight Season Wars, in which they were opposed by the Umathelan storm tribes and Aldryami.  The shape of this conflict seems to have been a string of early conquests followed by a long decline, with the Umathelans allies sending out armies each campaign season to seize back territory and disrupt the Fonritians' ability to supply themselves.  On the Afadjanni side, maintaining this conflict would've required garrisons, field armies, regular drafts of fresh reinforcements.  The mere fact that they could sustain the conflict so long speaks to the advanced logistical and bureaucratic abilities of the cities and realms that make up Afadjann.

In terms of what they can mobilize, the Guide says that each Fonritian city maintains its own core of professional soldiers, owned by their commander who is in turn owned by the ruler of the city.  These make up roughly 5% of the population across Fonrit, what the Guide describes as 'an entrenched warrior caste.'  Fonritian slavery-based society is also threatened internally by slave revolts, which occur whenever the magical obedience enforced by the cult of Darleester the Noose is disrupted.  The solution to this danger reached by real-world societies with more slaves than free people was a widespread militia system, through which local authorities could quickly call up free and semi-free manpower to crush revolts early, before they could spread.  I would not be surprised if there are structures in place to mobilize the petty landowners and semi-free citizens, under the leadership of the tiny body of free rulers, on an emergency basis for limited periods. 

Beyond numbers and degrees of professionalism, there is also the magic Fonritians can call on for battle and broader military concerns.  They can field both sorcerers and powerful priests as their lead magicians, and their slavery magic gives them ready access to bound spirits at volume as well as frightfully exact command of the forces of nature within their ownership.  To me, their most horrific magical resource is the application of Darleester's enslaving magic on battle captives; a Fonritian army can potentially replenish its losses in the field by enslaving captives and pressing them into magically compelled service.  The efficacy of this magic really can't be understated: it has proved powerful enough to enslave Vadeli prisoners after the defeat of the short-lived Vadeli Empire in northern Pamaltela.  Going deeper, modern Fonrit is steeped in the legacy of the God Learners and the Middle Sea Empire.  Golden Kareeshtu was founded by a revolt against the MSE led by its own imperial governor!  The enslaving magic also means that any God Learners who resisted the collapse of their regime in Fonrit and did not flee or die were likely made slaves of the new rulers of the Fonritian cities, and so whatever secrets they knew became the property of their new masters.  Their ability to conduct powerful, calculated heroquests to disrupt their enemies and empower themselves should never be underestimated.

[Jeff]

3 minutes ago, dumuzid said:

I wouldn't discount the military capacities of the bigger slaver states of Fonrit.

The Afadjanni have shown themselves capable of great military exertions.  They fought their own Hundred Years War in Umathela, the eight Season Wars, in which they were opposed by the Umathelan storm tribes and Aldryami.  The shape of this conflict seems to have been a string of early conquests followed by a long decline, with the Umathelans allies sending out armies each campaign season to seize back territory and disrupt the Fonritians' ability to supply themselves.  On the Afadjanni side, maintaining this conflict would've required garrisons, field armies, regular drafts of fresh reinforcements.  The mere fact that they could sustain the conflict so long speaks to the advanced logistical and bureaucratic abilities of the cities and realms that make up Afadjann.

In terms of what they can mobilize, the Guide says that each Fonritian city maintains its own core of professional soldiers, owned by their commander who is in turn owned by the ruler of the city.  These make up roughly 5% of the population across Fonrit, what the Guide describes as 'an entrenched warrior caste.'  Fonritian slavery-based society is also threatened internally by slave revolts, which occur whenever the magical obedience enforced by the cult of Darleester the Noose is disrupted.  The solution to this danger reached by real-world societies with more slaves than free people was a widespread militia system, through which local authorities could quickly call up free and semi-free manpower to crush revolts early, before they could spread.  I would not be surprised if there are structures in place to mobilize the petty landowners and semi-free citizens, under the leadership of the tiny body of free rulers, on an emergency basis for limited periods. 

Beyond numbers and degrees of professionalism, there is also the magic Fonritians can call on for battle and broader military concerns.  They can field both sorcerers and powerful priests as their lead magicians, and their slavery magic gives them ready access to bound spirits at volume as well as frightfully exact command of the forces of nature within their ownership.  To me, their most horrific magical resource is the application of Darleester's enslaving magic on battle captives; a Fonritian army can potentially replenish its losses in the field by enslaving captives and pressing them into magically compelled service.  The efficacy of this magic really can't be understated: it has proved powerful enough to enslave Vadeli prisoners after the defeat of the short-lived Vadeli Empire in northern Pamaltela.  Going deeper, modern Fonrit is steeped in the legacy of the God Learners and the Middle Sea Empire.  Golden Kareeshtu was founded by a revolt against the MSE led by its own imperial governor!  The enslaving magic also means that any God Learners who resisted the collapse of their regime in Fonrit and did not flee or die were likely made slaves of the new rulers of the Fonritian cities, and so whatever secrets they knew became the property of their new masters.  Their ability to conduct powerful, calculated heroquests to disrupt their enemies and empower themselves should never be underestimated.

I don't consider either Afadjann or Kareeshtu as having well-organised military. They are collections of rival city-states, currently held together by Darleester's Noose (in the case of Afadjann) or through the might, fear, and paranoia of the undying Archidomides (in the case of Kareeshtu). Their main enemies are their own people.

[dumuzid]

31 minutes ago, Jeff said:

I don't consider either Afadjann or Kareeshtu as having well-organised military. They are collections of rival city-states, currently held together by Darleester's Noose (in the case of Afadjann) or through the might, fear, and paranoia of the undying Archidomides (in the case of Kareeshtu). Their main enemies are their own people.

Oh I agree that they have no unified military structure, but each of these rival city-states does have its own fully professional force of which roughly 1 in 20 people are a part.  That professional body can also serve as the core and speartip of deeper mobilizations of the free and semi-free citizenry, though that sort of thing could only be feasibly done on an emergency basis, placing hard limits on Fonritian offensive military power that seem to have told loudly during the Season Wars.  Individually the city-states and constituent realms of the bigger states are minor powers, but when a central authority is strong in a Fonritian state it likely means a jann has succeeded in enslaving Darleester the Noose, allowing them to enslave other janns directly, which in turn allows them to compel the obedience of these otherwise fractious rulers to a degree that would be impossible for, say, the Princes of Sartar.  There are plenty of sound political reasons to avoid using that power too brazenly against fellow janns, but faced by an existential threat a ruling jann with a firm hand on Darleester could rapidly force the political patchwork of their state into coherence, and join all these independent military bodies into a large and formidable force, counting only professional troops from the major cities.  The jann who enforced such a mobilization would be threatened by schemes of the subordinate janns to kill the ruler and release their bindings at every step of the way, but that's rather a given in the Fonritian context, and Archidomedes at least has proven his ability to outplay all rivals in that kind of game, giving Kareeshtu even greater potential coherence than Afadjann.

The Fonritian janns do not have a great track record of offensive warfare, but their civilization has survived and ultimately expelled or repelled everyone from the God Learners to the Vadeli to the assembled vengeance of Umathela.  Even Harrek is unable or unwilling to fight his way beyond Laskal before he heads back to Genertela.  They are resilient in a way that, say, the Holy Country of Belintar or the Carmanian Empire were not.  They have magical and mundane resources unmatched by any of their immediate neighbors (barring an embyli renaissance with the Reforesting), and most of the powers that could meaningfully challenge them are either so far away as to be inconsequential, or deeply embroiled in their own problems and conflicts during the Hero Wars.

Which is all a way of underlining the original point in my previous post: don't discount the Fonritians.  They've fought with some of the biggest fish in the pond and they're still standing.  Their social order has recovered from devastating defeats that would've simply collapsed most regimes.  The only thing likely to topple them for good is an enemy who can liberate this force that keeps popping up to stimulate slave rebellions, the Varalu, the Artmali liberation song that was torn from the ancestors of the Veldang by Garangordos.

[Shiningbrow]

19 hours ago, metcalph said:

It depends on what the definition of demon is, init.  Since Trolls come from the Underworld, they qualify.  And there are tunnels to hell in Dagori Inkarth.

Well, true. But I find it difficult to imagine that in the same book that has large sections on the Uz and their culture, people, etc etc, that the word 'demon' would later be a substitute for them.

I'm not saying there wouldn't be some trolls in the area. But 'demon' shouldn't be an automatic translation for 'troll' for all 240,000 of them.

(PS - they 'qualify' only if you don't bother looking at the Bestiary)

[DrGoth]

18 hours ago, dumuzid said:

The only thing likely to topple them for good is an enemy who can liberate this force that keeps popping up to stimulate slave rebellions, the Varalu, the Artmali liberation song that was torn from the ancestors of the Veldang by Garangordos.

And wouldn't that be an interesting campaign idea.

[metcalph]

4 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

I'm not saying there wouldn't be some trolls in the area. But 'demon' shouldn't be an automatic translation for 'troll' for all 240,000 of them.

I didn't say all.  I explicitly said a mixture of Trolls, Gargoyles and the like.  

[Shiningbrow]

25 minutes ago, metcalph said:

I didn't say all.  I explicitly said a mixture of Trolls, Gargoyles and the like.  

True. you didn't. But again, if that were the case, I still think that 'demon' wouldn't include them for the same reason I mentioned above. I think that it would be mentioned there there are more than humans and demons in the area (unless, of course, the number is so small as to be irrelevant and insignificant... ie, only a handful of the 240,000. (i.e., numbering less than even 100 - because I think even that many would be noteworthy)

[g33k]

"Demon" is a highly-ambiguous word in the Gloranthan context
It gets even-more-ambiguous when it's used for a folk resident to the Middle World just as humans are.

In-world POV usage gets slipped into the text from time to time, I think; and from an in-world POV, strange & violent humans wielding strange & violent magics are sometimes called "demons."  Creatures of Chaos are sometimes called "demons."  I'm not saying that either of these is the case for Andin, but the usage muddies the waters.

As @metcalph notes, Trolls' Underworld-origin absolutely qualifies them as "demons," and if the Andini (Andinni?) "demons" are some mixture of different-kinds-of-demon (as seems likely) that could well include Trolls.

The GtG's "view from 30000 feet" might not mention a few thousand Trolls scattered amongst a few thousand each of a hundred or more different types of "Demon."  It's not like we have an exhaustive catalog of Underworld demons to hand, let alone all the other kinds of beings sometimes called "demons."

Edited May 4, 2023 by g33k